Capacitor

Get a 3uF capacitor. If I were you I’d go with a higher rated voltage. I cannot tell if you’ll roll off the bass by going 1uF without a circuit diagram, but I suspect you will.

@jasbirnandra 

Do you mind sharing what value uF you used? I have a C800 and was thinking of upgrading capacitors too, but the CuTF VCaps I was thinking of using is not made larger than 2.0 uF. 
Thank you

@grannyring

I’ve got the smaller model Canary amp that jasbirnanda has and it has the same 4 x 3uF caps. 

I follow what you said re the output caps, and I suspect Canary went for 3uF just to play safe. But why are the interstage caps also 3uF? Could it be that on the interstage such a large value is needed?

Thanks

@jasbirnandra

Thank you. I’m interested to hear if everything is ok when you try a smaller capacitor like a 2.0 uF.

I have Musicaps in my amp; they’re probably not as good as the Theta caps you have in your amp.

Regards.

@jasbirnandra 

I have custom built 2A3 SET amps and I don’t know what the input impedance is. I doubt it’s even close to as high as your Canary 300B, but I think it’s high enough to use a cap much smaller then 3uF.

My big concern was the interstage capacitor. Grannyring’s post confirmed my concerns. For the interstage capacitor, I (and you) need to stick to 3uF. 

@jasbirnandra

I cannot speak for your pre, but I’ll share what I have on mine.

I have 4 x 3uF coupling caps.

1 pair (the pair towards the back of the chassis) are output caps. I confirmed by measuring the resistance between the output RCA and the cap’s red lead and measuring between the 2nd pair of 6SN7 (the pair towards the back of the chassis) plates and the cap white lead. 100% they are output caps. This pair I may consider going smaller to get the best quality cap.

The other pair are interstage caps. I confirmed by measuring the resistances of that caps red lead with the grid on the second pair of 6SN7s and the cap’s white lead with the plate on the first pair of 6SN7s (the pair towards the front of the chassis). 100%, they are interstage caps. This pair I will stick to 3uF.

My pre also also has 2 pairs of 0.01uF caps - one per 6SN7 tube. In both cases the red lead is connected to the grid of triode 1 and the white lead to the plate of triode 2. IOW the two triodes in each 6SN7 has a coupling cap. I’m going to do these first as this is much cheaper - I just have ordered some VCaps a few minutes ago.

Note, this is the C800 MK2. How your pre differs I don’t know. I’m simply sharing what I have found.

@grannyring 

With tube amps you are good with output caps from .47uf to 2.2uf.  If you want a more holographic image I suggest two cap brands.  
- VH Audio Odams
- Duelund CAST CuSn - tinned copper version

Given the wording of your post, I was wondering if the caps you mention had a drop off in performance with values higher 2.2uF? I was looking at using 3.3uF Odams. 

@bpoletti 

Changing even a single component ( pairs in this case - left+right channel) can, and does, make a huge difference in sound. In many cases more so than going from bad speaker cable to good ones.

There is no "design flaw". A good analogy would be a motor car getting a new, and much better, tires. The car is still the same, but a good set of tires can increase mileage, shorten brake distance, improve handling and make the vehicle safer. Same for an amp. It still the same great amp as before but it's a little enhanced, a little improved.

It costs a couple of $100 to upgrade caps vs. the tens of thousands new pre - amps will cost. New pre-amps, which incidentally will have the same or similar mediocre capacitors we are replacing in the Canary pre amps; meaning we'll be back at square one looking to upgrade capacitors in our new pre amps.

Feedback

I replaced the 4 small interstage caps in my pre. Given their small value of 0.01uF I elected to go with CuTF VCaps. I am blown away by the improvement given the mediocre 3.0uF signal caps are still in place. It sounds like angels are in my room singing to me. Strings just hang in the air and the low level detail is almost overwhelming. 

@jasbirnandra 

I looked at a picture of the C1800. It is very different to my C800 and even uses different tubes. However, it looks like you possibly have the same small signal capacitors I have. If you have a multimeter you can confirm. It is much much much cheaper to replace those small caps than those big guys. And they do make a big difference. 
Regards 

@grannyring

I’m looking for 3uF caps and I cannot find Duelands of the appropriate value anywhere. The largest I’ve seen is 2.2uF and I’m way to risk averse to go that low.

I can get ODAMs but I see Chris V has some 3.0uF TFTFs available at a steep discount (albeit still not exactly cheap)

Have you compared ODAMs to TFTFs? I have used TFTFs in the past and I do like them but I’ve never heard the ODAM so any input would be appreciated.


Thanks in advance 

Thanks for your advice grannyring  - 4 ODAMs on their way. I’m not even going to put the cover back on. The ODAMs will be going in the minute they arrive. 

@charles1dad 

Thank you for the kind words.

I don't know why some would question the benefit of changing to superior quality capacitors versus price point influenced stock choices

I think it’s a before vs after thing. If you had listened to an amp before an upgrade and then after, the upgrade is obvious. If you get an amp that’s already upgraded, it’s going to sound as good but you won’t be able to appreciate what the caps brought to the table. 

@jasbirnanda

I don’t know if you have considered Dynamicaps. I have used them in the past when I had to stick to a strict budget. They are not as good as VCaps, but they have what I call "sparkle". Like their name suggest, they sound very dynamic and alive. It’s almost like the music leaps out of your speaker right at you.

I recall I liked them a little more than Jupiter beeswax, but it’s too long ago to remember the details. I used Dynamicaps for a long time till I had money to replace them with VCaps.

Taste is very personal, so you may like them or you may really not like them. If you do consider trying them, I would suggest to try 1 pair only at first. Dynamicaps cost about half (or less) what ODAMs cost.

Good luck with your choices.

For the very small caps (0.01uF), there is very little difference in price between Dueland Cast & VCap CuTF and the ones from your list. 

You should consider the Dueland or CuTF for the 0.01uF because for very little more money, you can get a lot more performance.

@jasbirnandra 

I cannot vote. My ODAMs will only arrive on Thursday and I heard Jupiter’s so long ago I cannot recall what they sound like.

If you really are in a bind to choose, why not get both? Pick one for an output cap and the other for interstage. Maybe your subconscious is trying to tell you something? 😆🤣

I believe @rauliruegas is sincere and has good intentions but he consistently has a ’know it all’ condescending manner toward other posters on this forum. I believe that he is convinced he has more

There are no good intentions or sincerity. There was no intent to help the PO.

Most folks don’t understand the basic economic problem.

Simply because a manufacturer uses a particular capacitor, does not mean its the best or even any good. Far from it. It actually means it was the very cheapest/convenient capacitor that could possibly be used by the manufacturer to attain a level of performance that would achieve projected sales targets.

This is true for resistors, regulators, PC boards, transformers, cabling, you-name-it.

There are precious few exceptions to this. You can bet dollars to doughnuts when a particular capacitor is  often used in audio components, it is definitely not the best.

"Somebody" needs to take a economics 101 class ...

+1 @charles1dad

Some people are simply not worth interacting with. 

@jasbirnandra 

If you have not decided on which 3.3uF caps, here is some feedback on the ODAM in the Canary.

Ok, I have 4 x 0.01uF CuTF and 4 x 3.3uF Odams. The Odams have 12 hours time on them.

My subjective findings so far. As granny said, these caps take a very long time to break in, and to make matters worse their character swings a little during the process. Even after 12 hours solid I feel they need a lot more time. The sound would go from recessed to so far forward that it felt like it went behind me, and then back to recessed again. Too little 3D to too much 3D, back and forth. 

At first I felt a little underwhelmed by the ODAMs, but the issue is they do everything very well, so nothing stands out to "catch" your attention. It is like a steady stream of good everywhere.

Bass is very extended and sounds very firm - very good for SET amps. The top end is also nicely extend and has a very gentle but crystal clear quality. I had sibilance on a particular George Michael song - its gone; the "S", the "P" and "T" sound is still clear and pronounced. I had problems with high piano note on a Diana Krall track - the problem is gone. I hear the note perfectly - it's still loud but it's no longer offensive.

The most enjoyable for me is the mid range. Voices and strings have a remarkable lifelike quality and I can say in all honest I have never ever heard sound presented on such a neutral way. The way the strings vibrate and change in tone as they decay is as real as it gets. Fantastic.

How much is contributed by the CuTF and how much by the ODAM I cant say. I have two in each channel. 

I'll report back in another 12 - 24 hours and hopefully I get a better handle on the soundstage, which I know is what you are looking for.

Regards

PS. to those condescending folks who feel they need to tell me I am not hearing what I have heard, that I have wasted my money, or that I have behavioral health problems, please spare me. It may come as a terrible shock to you, but your "expert knowledge" is of no interest to me. 

" Does changing the amp caps also make a difference"

Yes, definitely. As far as tube components go - wherever you have a cap in the signal path, replacing it higher quality cap will improve sound. DAC, amp, pre amp doesn't matter. Some may have a larger impact than others, but all will contribute. 

Let us know how you like the Jupiters.

" Yes Odams require at least 60 hours before even commenting on them 😊. They will not go downhill after 60 hours and after 100 hours you are 85% there!"

My pre is going non stop. By days end on Sunday I’ll be at 75 hours. From then I’ll resume my standard operating procedure of powering down before hitting the sack.

45 hours in and wow! Wow!

My sub is going into the trash. My sub filter was set at 30 Hz so the sub would fill only the range where my single driver BLHs could not go. But now it seems they have decided to drop down into the 20’s. I cannot believe what I am hearing.

My sub is officially unemployed. Anybody interested in a gently used Marchand XM66? 

@grannyring

Good call on the ODAMs. I know you said they need at least 80 hours but they are beginning to shine now. I cannot imagine how it can sound better, but I guess I will by tomorrow evening.

Next on the menu will be the cathode resistor bypass caps 😀

…. aaaaaand my battery has just died. Bummer. 

@charles1dad

I ended up pulling the cable just to be sure it was really off!

I’m a little overwhelmed. In the past 3 to 4 hours I have not listened to a single track without noticing something I never did before. This is the biggest bump in sound I have had that I can recall.

I suspect the previous caps were particularly bad and holding the system back and the VCaps are letting it through now?

PS. the upgrade was 2xCuTF and 2xODAM per channel. The CuTF were done a week before and I think they were hamstrung by the OEM caps and only showing their stuff now. 

+1 @sns 

The guy makes MC sound modest. 

@tomic601

Then you haven’t been paying enough attention to his ego driven drivel….

Surely you’re not faulting me for scrolling past anything and everything he posts? 😂🤣

@audioman58 

“but good to use as a bypass cap.”

Any value in bypassing an ODAM with a CuTF? I have a couple of CuTFs lying around.

@grannyring 

Are you talking speaker or electronics, or both? 

@grannyring

Yes you did. Apologies my train of thought went a little haywire. 

I have in the past also found bypassing on a coupling cap position can have unexpected results, but it’s generally been a mixed bag.

I do like the sound of my pre, much much more now after the VCaps. But the fact that it has 4 caps per side in the signal path is concerning, so further optimizing these is something I believe is worthwhile considering.

I’ve committed to ODAMs so Jupiters are not in my future, but @jasbirnandra may be interested as he said he is going Jupiter.

I’m now pondering sizing the bypass. I see suggestions of 0.01uF and also 1% to 2%, which would be 0.033uF to 0.068uF.

I’m a "go big or go home" person, so I’m considering trying a single pair of 0.068uFs. If the sound gets a little zippy, I’ll leave the 2nd pair of ODAMs un-bypassed.

@charles1dad 

What annoys me is this thread is (was) a good thread to reference and very useful to me. Now it is ruined by these garbage posts that I need to skip over to find the sensible posts. 

He ruins it for everybody else. 

When a person dies, he feels no pain. All the pain is felt by the people in the deceased persons sphere; the people who interacted with the deceased and are now left behind. The deceased is blissfully unaware of the pain his passing causes. 

The arrogant and conceited is much the same. The big difference is that the deceased dies but once. The arrogant and conceited knows no frontiers, he will never be satiated as he believes his comments are appreciated and needed.

We really need a mute button.

Great to hear @jasbirnandra !

@jasbirnanda  

I would advise to not change all your caps at once. Change maybe one or two pairs at a time and sit back and listen. If your sound goes in the wrong direction, you can alter your path. If you feel the sound is on the right path, you go ahead.

Each time you will hear an improvement, so you get to enjoy the improvement every time. 

Another benefit would be distributing your costs over time, so you can buy really good quality capacitors. 

" I am using the Canary Grand reference with 8 tubes on each side when I opened the amp cover each tube had a cap underneath it"

You will need to do all the power tube caps at the same time. Sounds like you have 16 power tube caps? Ouch - that's a lot of caps you need to do. 

I'm not even going to ask what it will cost to replace the tubes ... 

Good luck

I’ve only ever used TFTF on tubed components so I never got to the point where they sounded sterile. While I’ve never compared the TFTFs directly with CuTFs I get the impression the CuTFs are a touch warmer. 

In my pre and power amps all the signal path caps are VCaps, two ODAMs and four CuTFs. Overall my sound is a little less warm than before but given I replaced the OEM caps with both CuTFs and ODAMs I can speak only for the blend of the two and not CuTFs and ODAMs individually. 

What’s most noticeable is detail - it’s off the charts. I cannot recall TFTFs being so transparent. Anybody on a budget should go ODAM. 

Did I mention how detailed they are?