Best amplifier for Acoustat 2+2 electrostats for holographic sound, or change speakers?

Having owned Acoustat model 3M's, I can tell you that they are limited to the imaging that you describe, it is only once you change speakers that imaging specificity and IME, a host of other benefits, can be had. YMMV.

My first set of high end speakers were Acoustat 2 + 2… 1979? They were awesome but I instantly realized that a much better amp was required if I was going to keep them. So I bought a high current amp ($5K 19K today)… but after that purchase I couldn’t afford the speakers. I never got back to buying them.

With trade in and only $1K, that just sounds like a great way to trade and end up unhappy. Now if you can add $5K to $10K to your trade in, I’d start looking. But I am risk adverse.

Your amplifiers are not destroying the spatial information you seek. I sold your 2+2 and many other stats. You don’t mention which wall you have them on and where the absorbers are… Typically audiophiles overtreat the room… w absorbers…typically also messing up frequently response by not using a broad band panel aka DEEP… diffusion on sides might help…

I agree 2+2 value plus $1K isn’t going to help much… and you will give up the magic midrange…

Just my $1.50

I have a pair of 1+1’s. For years I had a pair of Hafler DH-220s. They had plenty of power but they lacked “air” and depth. So just a few years ago I picked up an ARC VS-110. It might not have the horsepower but boy do those tubes sound great! 

You might consider finding yourself a nice tube amp of say 100wpc and see how that would work for you. 

Happy listening  

A description of what Holographic Sound as term means to yourself would help as it is widely used to mean a variety of perceptions for a presentation of the end sound.

I have attached a few description given by others on their take on Holographic Sound.  

(1) "Holographic means that the music isn't rooted to the speakers, but instead seems to be originating from specific areas where the musicians and singers are arranged throughout the soundstage of your listening room -- especially between and outside your speakers -- in the best cases, there is air between them and you can imagine some closer to you and some further away -- the proverbial deep and wide soundstage. 

But, holographic means the musicians and singers appear throughout the soundstage almost like holograms."

(2) "My definition would simply be different words than those used above. I think "holographic" is more of a situation where the illusion becomes believable and almost touchable. Whether it is a soundstage (sonic holograph - nice term) or visual field (hologram), the specific event takes on an atmosphere of real volume and space."

(3) "I think 3-dimensional sound has more in common with multi-channel home theater set-ups, which can provide the most easily heard holographic situations. Surround sound would then be the engineered product of sounds delivered in specified areas. These sounds are what I enjoy as the novelty of special effects."

I myself use a Stacked Array of Electrostatic with 845 Monoblocks Power Amp's.

Upstream of these I have used a variety of Pre Amp's and brought in a large selection of Phonostages and even more SUT's, along with a Head Amp to make the most of the Vinyl Source.

For the Digital Source, I have been less adventurous, a Bespoke Built DAC using Valves in the Output Circuit along with a CDT, has offered a very good impression in the home system and performed exceptionally well alongside much more expensive Digital and Vinyl Sources when used in other systems.

When I get a better understanding of your description of Holographic Sound I will add more, as I have been able to create the perceptions that are a version of what is described above, and I believe beyond what is described above. Especially when it comes to the 'Envelope', there is a perception that can be generated in the listening space, especially a listening space that is seemingly expansive, voluminous.

In such a perception of Spaciousness, there is also another perception to be encountered, where the Imaging of a performer is perceived as being locatable in the space, when the perception of the performer has embodiment, there are other perceptions that are possible to encountered as follows.

The 'Envelope' is where the produced Notes and Vocal produced take on a perception of their being formed, the Note/Vocal has its own embodiment, as it seems the Imaging has further layers, where the performer is visualised creating the sound being produced. 

It is when the End Sound and Psychoacoustic Affect attains this level of perception that the following perceptions really are discernible:

Attack – the time line for the note to being audible to attaining  maximum volume.

Sustain – Once the perception of maximum volume is present, the length of time it remains.

Decay – The life of the Note / Vocal its length of time being perceived before if expires.

 All the above is achievable as perceptions to listeners on Stacked ESL's almost 60 Years since their being new.   

Wow @pindac, what an outstanding response here!  Sadly it takes a lot of time, trial and error, patience, and even luck, to assemble a system to achieve the initial experiences of the attributes that you describe so well here.  Taking what we learned to get to that initial point of "success" with further refinements to the system takes us to (2) in your response.  The end result is that it is often difficult to end a listening session and return to reality.

John

A million years ago (mid 90s) I had 2 + 2s. I used both the interface and eventually their servo amps, which are amazing, but back then they had red glowing tube issues that scared the pants of me. Someone does update them and is said to make them totally stable. Do a search and you'll be rewarded

@tomic601

+1 yes, I missed that. Often planar require much more reflection than dynamic speakers… it would be easy to have overly dampened the rear walls. Also, like all planar these need vey precise positioning. 

Roger Sanders makes one version of his solid state amp specifically for ESL’s (the other for magnetic-planars---Magnepan and Eminent Technology).

Also, like all planar these need vey precise positioning. 

This statement is not applicable to the big Soundlab speakers.  "Careful", yes, "precise", no. They can be near or far from the side walls.  They should be 2-3 feet from the back wall or corners or some bass peaks will occur in some rooms.  Slight relocation will reduce this dramatically with care.  But never never never, insert an "equalizer" between the pre and amp or you will lose much of the magic you worked so hard to achieve.  They can be 6-8 feet apart, 10+ feet apart, 10-14 feet from the listener, or as an incredible experience, the user can sit a couple feet in front.  There is no need for the listener to shift their head to find the "sweet spot".

Thanks, all, for the thoughtful responses.  To answer pindac, I am looking for 1) more immediacy and a bit more dynamic response of the various instruments and if possible, pushing the soundstage more forward (didn't mention that before).  I realize that the source recording has a lot to do with what is reproduced and a bad recording isn't going to be transformed into a life changing audio experience by the system, no matter what the quality of the equipment is.

I currently have 2 sets of amps and line stag preamps, so I can sell one of the sets for maybe $3k for a purchase.  It seems, though, that the resale value is always lower than what I hope for.

I also am wondering if I should look at other speakers, particularly open baffle designs.  The drawbacks of diving back into the speaker arena to me are 1) selling the Acoustats because of their size and vintage, and 2) the gazillion choices that I can read about but not audition.

I would get rid of the interfaces on those speakers and use a direct drive amp. I have Acoustat Model 2s and did exactly that using the Acoustat Servo amps. Going with a direct drive amp removes the transformers from the equation which can restrict dynamics. If immediacy and dynamics are your goal as far as I'm concerned direct drive amps are your answer.

Try stacking two Stillpoint Aperture panels dead center on the wall behind the Acoustat’s ( the first one approx 2 feet off the floor) and your sense of focus and immediacy will be noticeably enhanced... Also the resultant sound will be somewhat more lively, and engaging.... unfortunately they are somewhat pricey    (2k new).

Cheers.....

+1 clio09

When I had my 2+2s originally had the interfaces. Eventually I got a pair of their servo amps which sounded way better, but back then 20+ years ago they were unstable. However, long after I sold them someone updates them and are said to be very stable HTH