Another turntable

Sounds like you're looking at about the same options as I was.  Here's an extensive thread that outlines some options:

Audiogon Discussion Forum

don’t forget about a dust cover

chakster has/had two of these beautiful Luxman PD444 Two Arm TT’s,

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154633905385?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2400e624e9:g:iWoAAOSwt0phVxrY&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACsPYe5NmHp%252B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsStEKTPzZMfQmny3knR97t0CtpEAugVQSMuTnThSgTZtNOEpYPyY3qqXzHFvLyzb2ksjzVgu0bh652fyLnYRmj1ZhLFgQTVx%252BW%252FYXbXlnIv3br2mm%252F9b8BLpvv3cUcXTwCeWbyBq0b0Zw80ziEljY8xE864WZtmZ4c4Rh3BPwIc9MElvderRZhAQ1w251lAWh9k0I4emcaIbT29JTqhyBz47rzXguft7ig%252BOWeGtyhCAFAmE%252Bb1XWBbbow9Q9QQ3%252FQ2ZYHLtq4x9p7mjjZeYb4zh4TzALqKE4BKM8XNfsXWJPmthEtFw97OXfuVIx7qdSgbJ8t47W0w75JBZaOAySo2sh%252BuCJrQ7H%252Fa7rTuBqBsk5gkDkK8UgMRuxulYqf7I0TnmkP5dvuoTt6AjHfzm9AZ5PdZ5Bh5SD%252BzIlzoRqTgQ0nL7%252FkaRE1%252BZhZCsrOtkEKqNbKcDr2lnWNFgnj6R9fBE34dTiBRUxuJSssvqQ9AJ98NG4S4AkuGTLxC3Q3i94XqXa0tXistnkE4ltiNPHEX97u5xtus%252BfXIoftBSu%252F00RwXM4UeCKL0FXBTg3Yyg2KGDbLTwb1RBMNTWZQuf9%252FMgtblSRGrCJEpnK%252BFs5FynhXrX0BZLSjrgLVWOfsetzwyFuG0U5KrHUmIlrFlxbRyMu4Z%252Bdgp9XRujjxtR%252BcuLqCqDDNiarw5CMNL9Pkz0NtBxg6NovsFf8bhub5d38I1Q7xGWVsx7q3Krh0iq%252FWDaCTyPtLunJZ5RQv7n8NPMPweo4BgT4x6uOLr%252Bw3B6NHLVoATFsFvFvIq41BTDN16SgFMX4mY5H9jMoUC%252BjyT5yKnNPcOC62tEUKPl6DepNQMDB34jcKQTKJqZYshlwKipE%253D%7Cclp%3A2334524%7Ctkp%3ABFBMuvqH3cNf

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I had more depth, not enough width available.

I went for a Vintage JVC Victor Large Plinth CL-P2 with TWO removable arm boards, Plinth is unique: 7 layers

’expired’, Eugene may relist it. gives you lots of info

 

 

 

you pick your arms, long on right, one of the two with removable cartridge and easily adjustable VTA is nice.

fits several of their Direct Drive Spinners,

TT61 (not quartz locked)

TT71, TT81 (mine), both quartz locked.

TT801, vacuum platter, ultimate bragging rights, often need work I have read, not for me.

 

Next, I squeezed a 3rd arm on the left side, got greedy, too clever, probably should have stayed at 2. On the other hand, I am ready for MM to avoid wear on MC, and Stereo/Mono instantly during a listening session.

12.5" arm MC Stereo on right

9" rear, removable headshell, VTA on the FLY, MM Stereo, or any pre-mounted in a headshell

9" compact Mono on left side

............................................

SUT with 3 switchable inputs, 4 optional loads/x-factors/impedances; PASS for MM.. out to single beloved MM Phono Input.

Mine is Fidelity Research FRT-4.

 

Entre ET-100 has similar features

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313807985445?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item491069db25:g:6qcAAOSwtwphyE~z&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACkPYe5NmHp%252B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsSB0Xm7k0guzAysaIMfJcbBORoqbvUIuhiMG6RFasM6O4FJbCywD7AUBmDRBHGxJMA7NmX9oHgmZ8xyyzpfe%252FK14%252BiEU%252FzHKsVx3NAif1H535vB3Bi15f12PeuYbBA8sGIFJfqx%252BQcigol7hK%252Fc9t%252FmOv0qs4YMtQiY8HvlkJ%252FpRmrXkTgCNJbsXyix2t%252BtFIM21DQv%252F4%252B2DMKRPu0dOxPORzE7rVDy3RyyNlWr%252FNCggMwHsEIrVew%252FqPuhsJDpuy77OJLZlY5J5V5IuTQ2K4eKjovCP9IzcC5AifEpZlOxnEGTlqwA%252Bb9bWtL5spdLBfszJzcy9ee%252BT6KxKesYtLMDWzZs5wbaFcH3aAIhigKwk1O04LObVw3x7kJUesfqSKBbK32m8n8KY0i2jDd26SpCDCKoriRw0z8qrfapR%252FFpjRkVXFGr8As9bPp8Vb%252Bwr0JK5cCEzjLgPsvhIxSTZKnwOBBk4u8vpncPWvzpKz8NIqPClU4rcYEioiOX5prNOYHi1QOQxVGYxk%252FQlzfa4J2WWyNeVPut8e%252F0ptgdrLNOwlQSCSVbuvuhFeSHnwkc%252F6HVZZXipInrgHbVYH5oNe8rDDpSupeXrcSBShsPmxo%252FK3MeRML6aNNUD%252FNBMJCpUHKOgf7lTeXlv5Iz1WpBglv8GbFgzp7324BtEXLzEXyrs9rXBDsr3YDH5FoR01tEymuZb%252FiZMkwhALiBtDd3p47xejf5Uxms%252BSd3bVz8RSP9WAdxFzJHLT3tI60868BIAKfcZ3SMbxanvdWCKYLBUcW3mjZxAiFaDCc8tm3uOYyLURdXY4elf1aZAE6Jj5M51Iu%7Cclp%3A2334524%7Ctkp%3ABFBM2tHN3sNf

 

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you can see my 3 arm TT here:

 

 

 

Origin Live. Had a Conqueror arm from like 15 years ago, liked it so much I upgraded to the new Enterprise arm on a new Sovereign turntable. Pretty sure you can get the Sovereign with 2 arms. With your budget you could get a Voyager, fantastic table and definitely can run 2 arms.

@senza add to your list a Kuzma R. Heard one recently and was VERY impressed! 

When it comes to looking at Direct Drive TT's,  from the Vintage Brands and Models, a Denon DP - 80 can be found for well under the $2000 allocation of Budget. Shipping and Import will be additional to the Purchase. Overseas shipping has recently had price increases, but for a single TT, these may up $70-100 to the prior to Covid charges.

I suggest the DP-80 for two reasons, one being that I own Two Models in my collection of a  Selection of Vintage DD TT's from the same production era. 

The other being more of the Ancillaries available and seen often that might just suit your purposes, the DP-80 is commonly seen in two forms that is with oor without a Plinth.

The Plinths seen for the DP-80 are often seen a Models that has the option for Two Arms in built as part of the design. From recollection I know there are Plinth Models that will accommodate one 12" Tonearm but I can't reassure that I have seen a design that will support two 12" Tonearms, I am sure a little though on the matter would produce a satisfactory method to enable the use of two arms at 12".

There was a lot of research carried out by the Big Brands during this TT's Production era and there will be Plinth Materials known off, that are being reported on as a better interface material that other types, it might be worth looking into the preferred material selection, another plus is that Plinths show up for sale as individual Items without the TT as part of the sale. This would enable a TT Motor Unit and Plinth to be selected as individual items and be shipped, if a intermediary buying service is used, this service will receive your goods, and combine the items into one package for shipping. 

The icing on the cake with the DP-80 is that if one is to be sought as a TT, and the buyer has a understanding of the ancillaries it can be supplied with, an extension time of surveying the used item sales market, will allow for a Phosphor Bronze / Gun Metal Plinth Model to appear, surprisingly these do not usually command a large margin of increased asking price.

I will cut of here, and  let other users of this suggested model inform you its credentials as a TT   

Thanks for your answers and opinions.I didn’t think Origin Live could be that good. Interesting.I’m a bit surprised nobody talked about  Verdier or SME nor Brinkmann that are the more often talked about in this price range.
 

A few years ago I was in the same position as you are now. I had a TW Raven GT SE with the AC platter and Black Night battery PSU. This PSU gave me lots of trouble, even after returning it twice to the manufacturer for repair. So I decided to sell it. I know I’ll be at the receiving end of demeaning comments from certain folks here, but I decided to try my luck with an old Micro RX-1500. Even in it’s basic form with aluminum platter the sound was surprisingly good. This made me decide to upgrade the table with stainless steel platter, copper mat, R-15 mass loaded feet and brass outer flywheel ring. I also had the motor drive fully refurbished. There’s plenty of space for up to 4 tonearms. The required gunmetal armboards are fairly easy to find and there are 1 on 1 replicas as well. In this fully dressed up version the RX-1500 runs circles around the TW, no comparison. Very important part of this outcome has been the use the SF-1 Kevlar belt. String drive will be equally good, but don’t use the standard rubber belt.

Of course the Micro can be easily dismissed as ‘old school’ technology, but I haven’t regretted this backward step for a micro second. It has secured itself firmly as my proverbial ‘last table’. And with your budget you can easily stretch to an RX-5000, assuming your rack can handle the weight.

Thanks very much for this answer. I didn’t think these « little » MS were that good. I will investigate further but it seems the majority of these TTs are from Japan or US so have to convert to 230V.

 

The RX-1500 was sold in fairly large numbers in the EU, so 220V versions are not that rare although prices are steadily on the rise. The RX-5000 is much harder to find in EU voltage. Of the really big air bearing models like SX-8000 mk II only a handful 220V versions were apparently imported. If offered at all, your 20k budget won’t be enough.

Another option might be to check www.micro-seiki.nl or www.db-tribute.nl and look for The Tribute. This is a meticulously built one-on-one replica of the RX-5000 that can be sold together with a newly designed motor drive made by Dereneville in a chassis similar to the RY-5500 motor drive. Should be easily possible within your budget. On this site you will also find some of the add-on accessories, like the copper mat and even a replica of the HS-80 flywheel. The guy who runs this business is great to deal with, a real fanatic when it comes to quality and very customer friendly.

unfortunately my Finite Elemente Pagode HD Wallmount can’t handle the total weight of the Tribute, otherwise this would surely have been my ‘last table’.

I would look at Acoustic Signature either a Typhoon or Montana.

The typhoon is about 60-65% there in musicality, dynamics and transparency from a TechDas Air Force one premium which I own, the Montana is around 75%.

I know that all this very subjective, there are many combinations of tonearms, cartridges.

yes the TechDas is an incredible tt, but the typhoon and Montana are really good.

the SME are also great tables but you already mentioned them

Apologies to the OP, I was working with a 2000 euro budget and no the up to          20 000 euro as stated.

If you are not to far from Aachen in Germany, their is a good place local to this city to experience quite a range of TT's at the mid to upper end of your budget. 

Have a look at the PTP Solid 9 and 12 turntables from the Netherlands.

I had a succession of high end turntables - top spec Linn LP12, AMG Viella, and Kuzma Stabi Ref/4Point. The PTP Solid 9 was better than all of them, and also less expensive.

Dear @senza : I think that the 20/3 needs no presentation for you and it's a superb TT better than MS or almost all named here and at the same level of the top Acoustic Signature but if still today in production you have an other great alternative with the Simon Yorke TT.

 

I don't like any of the tonearms you own and for very good reasons but never mind because that's me.

 

Try to use 9"-10" tonearms instead 12", for very good reasons too.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Thanks for your answers and opinions.I didn’t think Origin Live could be that good. Interesting.I’m a bit surprised nobody talked about  Verdier or SME nor Brinkmann that are the more often talked about in this price range.

I sold my Platine Verdier to an SME owner ( SME 20/2 ). It was a significant upgrade in transparency and low level resolution.

Despite this for me the Platine Verdier had flaws, particularly regarding speed stability, noisy motor, and it got hosed off by my spare TT - a re-engineered Garrard 301.

Now the Platine Verdier owner has purchased a Brinkmann Balance. 

If you go with SME you need to get at least the 20/3 or 30/.. to get a better TT than your Raven.

I also have a friend with a Kuzma M, it is excellent, very low noise floor.

Personally, based on extensive listening I would be looking at the Brinkman Balance or Kuzma M. Note that the Kuzma M can only run 1 tonearm. The Brinkmann can do 2.

As far as the Kuzma R goes, the reviews are misleading. The platter and motor are both smaller than the M model. Its a great deck for the money, but the M is significantly better in my view.

 

It would be great to think that the Munich Hi End Show will take place this year.

It is a event that is a Mecca for enthusiasts across the Globe, and being based in Europe, attending this event will be reasonably easy to achieve.

All of the choices that make the shortlist and others that have not will most likely be available for a demonstration within the show.

If this is an appealing option, exhibitors can be contacted in advance, and informed of your interest in receiving a demonstration of certain products.   

The Balance is out of reach except a used model. It seem th tube PSU is mandatory with also theHRS base, and these « accessories «  significantly p raises the price. Never heard SME and opinions on them are convergent concerning build quality but rather divergent about SQ. 
concerning Verdier I heard the speed was not precisely 33,33, but that the motor kept it very constant. Now Raul said it’s not the case. Verdier better or worst sounding than SME 20.3 ? 
No dealer here is able to present 2 different TTs in the same price range, and the one they sell are told to be selected by them as « the » reference in their price range. I know it’s not the case as they all have deals with builders or importers for selling their products. That’s why I ask to real users for sharing real experiences.

In the end, if I compile what all of you David, Kuzma Stabi M seems the one to go, but only one arm. 

I second the PTP solid 9 or 12. Incredible table. Stabi R with 4Point otherwise.

But why not just upgrade your arm to the 4Point and keep the TW? Easier step and it will get you closer to the big boys than you think

@dhcod : yes it’s a possibility also. With the money spared I could buy Uber tonearms like Glanz 1200. But I’m an audiophile after all, 😎 and in a few years I will be retired with restricted financial possibilities.😏

Dear @senza  : The Simon Yorke is not a TT with a high marketing profile but the other way around and for very good reasons.

I'm sure that you know Allaerts cartridges and if not you need to own the Formula One. Well, J.Allaerts use Simon Yorke TT for his cartridge voicing.

 

Don't go for TT names that at the end means almost nothing, yes names as SME is a good name with high quality manufacturing.

Anyway, you can read here about Simon Yorke and read his historty and blog both really interesting and I don't know but maybe you can get its TT with two arm boards obviously you have to ask about:

 

https://recordplayer.com/

 

R.

Dear Raul,

Simon Yorke is very interesting. I saw his son builds the SID 9 TT, but don’t know the price.
As I understand it, it is better to buy the TT with its own tonearm and possibly an Allaerts cart, for having the best possible Yorke sound. I think Yorke was an ingeneer and an artist and Allaerts is also a singular personality. We need people like them who think out of the box.
It is a strong choice to do. The result could possibly be, in the end, the best of this TTs price range. 
Did you listen the SYD 9 by yourself and compared it ? Please can you share ? 
 

Dear @senza : No, I heard the 7 that is up to this " artist ". There are two reasons why SY has not a wide market/owners: first is a very low profile manufacturer over all years and second is that he manufactured him self and only a few units each year. I think is a privilege to own the SY and along the Formula One almost a" dream ". You can ask for the 7 too that I understand was higher in price.

 

R.

Dear @senza  :  One very special and ecellent TT alternative comes today with the DD unit by Technics, in many ways better and outperforms almost all the TT's named here and you can get with two arm boards.

It's weird that in this thread almost all just forgeret DD TTs, anyway here is the Technics:

 

R.

The TW was a great turntable, and still is.  It's not like TT technology has gone very far in 20 years.  And who cares if it is not talked about; there weren't very many out there.  A TT may age in one place and that is the bearing.  Have you looked at it, or had it looked at for wear?  IIRC the original was in stainless steel.  When I had a bearing replaced with a sapphire thrust plate and ceramic ball and a special lubricant the performance went up measurably.  Another place to upgrade might be the PS.

Then as others have written upgrade can be in an arm.

Just my 2 cents.

The bearing is not as old as the TT. I changed it when I bought the 20kg BN platter, less than 10years ago.

I emailed S. Yorke for his SYD9 prices and fab delay. Here is his complete answer pasted here :

« Hi,

No, sorry, I don’t do that audiophile stuff anymore. »

End of the story. I asked him to explain a bit. No answer yet.

Über Technics seems to be a world in its own. Too many pros and cons. The partisans of the old SP10 vs the partisans of the new ones. The different plinths and how they sound…
All that buzz always kept me on the side of this road. But that’s me.

 

I have owned all the good Gararrds (Loricraft etc), Lenco (PTP Solid, Jean Nantais),

Technics SP-10 Mk3, Platine Verdier, all EMTs.

The only few which sounded really good to my ears are these

SME 30/

Micro Seiki SX-8000

Hartvig TT signature 

http://hartvigaudio.com/products/hartvig-tt-evolution

Avid Acutus Reference

Most other TTs I personally liked were either too expensive or too cheap :-)

Like @pani , I myself have owned Linn Belt Drive, Garrard 401 ( Martin Bastin Overhaul ) PTP Solid 9 , and a Variety of Vintage DD TT's SP10 MkII, DP-80, TTS 8000, Aurex SR510, and I have listened to recently throughout the past year Post Covid a SP10 R and prior to Covid a SME and a Orbe.

I lean heavily toward the DD Sonic Signature and the Joy of all the inbuilt speed stability.   

Just got an Avid Ingenium....beautiful turntable and all I'll ever need. 2 grand.....with cartridge already mounted. Will upgrade mdf platter to the aluminum one at some point, but In no hurry. Avid is good bang for the buck.

@pindac , I meant, after owning many idler and direct drives, I personally prefer some of the belt drives the best when it comes to high resolution playback without getting sterile. I don't hear people talking about Hartvig turntables here but it is a very good TT. Better than a Kuzma Stabi M to start with.

Dear @senza : Down Technics land there is really low knowledge levels of the overall today models.

You can put the Technics in a vibraplane plattform and that’s all. In this way no one of all the TT’s ( today or vintage ) named here can " touch " it.

 

The over 100K+ SAT DD TT use a Technics motor design. I don’t know what really are talking those " partisan " against the today Technics but anything they said against only speaks of their low knowledge levels levels.

 

Don’t let that people take out the Technics alternative but at the end is up to you.

 

In the other side remember that does not exist any perfect audio item over the world, always we must take founded in the trade-offs of each audio item.

 

R.

Dear @senza  : Exist several vintage TTs that not only even the vintage Technics SP10MK3 but that outperformed as: Final Paruthenon, Goldmund Reference, Rockport Sirius, Exclusive P3A by Pioneer, Micro Seiki Sz-1TVS,  Thorens Reference, Yamaha GT 2000X , Kenwood, etc, etc.

 

The today Technics motor is a better design that the vintage SP10MK because the SP-10R is a coreless motor design that's new in Technics TT.

 

SP-10R needs a plinth and out there are Technics plinth manufacturers that can help any buyer and their plinths are just great and custom made .

 

But TT is only one important part in the analog rig and when we are talking of this kind of level quality the tonearm/cartridge of choice is extremely critical, especially the tonearm that must be the one that can help for the cartridges shows at its best because from there is generated the MUSIC audio signal and the next step is probably more important and that is the phonolinepreamp where that MUSIC audio signal is proccessed in a really " tortuose " overall proccess that unfortunatelly at each single step inside that proccess the sensitive, valuable and critical MUSIC audio signal will be degraded through added distortions of every kind. So the choice of this audio item is way important too because we need the unit that makes/does the less harm to that MUSIC audio signal.

 

R.

 

Hi @pani it is the wonderful world of the HiFi Journey, when two individuals have shared in common experiences of equipment use, and the preferred ancillary of each are with a difference.

Good info for the OP to consider, hearing the performance of an ancillary is crucial, and demonstrations are the key to the gathering the evidence for the assessments that will be produced.   

Thanks for everyone for sharing your opinions with all due respect !

 I will probably make a decision in a few weeks. Not sure I will go toward vintage as there are too many variables for having a good or an exceptional product (how it has been cared, the importance of having an expert not too far in case of troubles, the PITA if I need to ship it across the world for  repair or anything else, etc etc). It looks like a gambling. You can win or you can loose. I’m not rich enough for taking that kind or risk.

The only expert vintage who is 30 km from me is Swissonor with his Thorens TD124. Kuzma and SME smells good, if I keep my TW for having different arms and carts (1 mono and 1 stereo, and the SPU Century that is waiting in its box…). Is it possible to buy a new  SME with a plinth for another tonearm now ? If not, SME will go out of my way. 

Dear @senza  : Ask here:  +44(0) 1903 814321 or here:

[email protected]

 

R.

Hi @senza  Kuzma Stabi R owner here and very happy with this choice. I currently use only one tonearm, the 4point9 with a Benz LP-S and I'm more than happy with the sound, the build quality and the ease of use.

Build quality and ease of use were amongst my top priorities when deciding for a new turntable, as I use the table almost daily.

i plan to add a second tonearm in the future which is quite easy with this turntable and will be looking into Kuzma isolation platforms for enhanced vibration control and then maybe a high end power cord to max out the turntable performance. 
 

Table + Arm(s) + Isolation Platform should fit you budget and provide you with a lot of listening pleasure 

Keep the TW, and add a Wheaton triplanar or a Reed tonearm.  

 

Most other options mentioned above are a lateral move, at best.

 

Good luck!

You might consider a Transrotor. The Fat Bob S or Reference. 
Simple design and elegant. The S accepts a second arm, not sure about the Reference. 
Good luck. 

Thanks for your help 👍

probably I’m wrong but the Transrotor looks like a copy of all the most successful designs realized by other makers « before ». I don’t said they are, but it seems.

Their TT’s models are so different from one another that this company doesn’t  seem to have a real identity, personality, a philosophy of what a good sounding  tt should look like. So, from my point of view, they don’t inspire confidence.

Its just my impression as I never heard anyone.
How such a little company can seriously imagine, study and produce so many models ?

That being said it is a respectful company because they are on this market for a long time now, and if their products were only bad copies they should have disappeared many years ago. Their new tonearm collects very good comments from the owners.

@bobbydd you are wiser than me. I keep in mind your opinion.

FYI, currently on audiomarkt a Simon Yorke S7 offered for sale at €13k, complete with 9” tonearm and Allaerts MC 1 Boron mk II from a reputable German dealer. I’m not affiliated in any way, just noticed it while browsing. Could be your ‘last table’……

Dear @senza  : 

R

Oh la la ! Wonderful. Thank you Raul.