Don't rule out integrated amps with "too much power". That's what the volume control is for.
A decent integrated amp under 2K ...
I'm looking for an INTEGRATED AMP. My speakers are Altec 620A (100 db efficiency) and my listening room is 14 x 21. I mainly listen to digital files from my DAC (Metrum) but sometimes I feel less lazy and put on a vinyl on my Garrard. I don't need a phono stage, I use the one from another integrated amplifier (Spendor D40). Here's my shortlist:
1) Belles Aria Integrated (slightly powerful for my needs)
2) Croft phono integrated (since I don't need a phono stage, I think it's a shame to burn tubes for nothing)
3) Rogue Sphinx V3 (too powerful for my needs)
FURTHER CONSIDERATIONS: I can live with tubes but only in the PREAMP section and I try to avoid Class A due to the heat. I'm open to Class D (proof: the Rogue) but the choice is limited and these devices come with a bunch of stuff I don't need. I rather spend my $ where it will make a difference.
regards
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to those who are interested... I bought a Belle Aria Integrated about a month and a half ago... At first listen, I was a little disappointed because it’s quite neutral compared to my Sugden A25B. Like many British amps, the Sugden has a pleasant coloration. After a few days of listening, my ears ended up "detoxifying" and the Belles gradually seemed to be superior to the Sugden on several criteria: more nuanced, better image and above all NO harshness at all, which is quite rare for a SS amp... the Belles is so neutral you forget it’s there... the only thing that seemed weaker is the bass... Its high damping (2000) produces a much thinner bass but, on the other hand, it is very nuanced. I haven’t listened to enough vinyl records yet to comment on its phono stage but when I did, it sounded good. It’s by far the best transistor amp I’ve heard, but I must admit I didn’t listen to many high end SS amps. |
@waltroman : very interresting comment... I end up buying a Belles Aria Integrated about a month ago and I've been listening to it ever since... its damping factor is 2000 and I lost quite a bit of bass..I would like to compare with the Croft, but I don't know its damping factor and this info seems hard to get on the web... |
I may be late to the table here but I believe one thing that does not get talked about when choosing an amp for a highly efficient set of speakers is damping factor. Choosing a normal solid state amp on efficient speakers will strangle them. Judd Barber of Joulle Electra fame talked about damping factor that anything above around 8 and the amp will start to swallow up the bass notes - this is compounded with high efficiency. Hence Croft makes it a great choice for your Altec speakers - it measures like a tube amp.
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I have always been interested in Croft interested, never owned one however. Seems like a good choice for your application. Not wanting to further side tract this thread, I will PM you regarding my systems if you don't mind. I enjoy sharing audio experiences as none of my friends are all that interested.
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@mesch : my Sugden isn't an A21, it's a class A/B amp so it doesn't get hot at all... my two top contenders are the Croft and the Belles... which ever comes first on the used market, but I rather get the Croft because it's only 40 watts/chanel and I don't need more then that... Here's my advice for you. I wrote it before realising you didn't have a pair of speakers yet, so it may be useless : I've had 2 pairs of Tannoys (Belvedere + Arden) and they are a lot easier to match then my Altec... never heard the Sterlings but they must be pretty good... with 91 db efficiency, you could use a bit more power then I do... based on your Tannoy (I never heard the Esoteric MG-10), I'd go for a Belles integrated (75 watts/chanel)... from what I read, to better this, you have to get a class A (Pass labs, Sugden A21, First watt), or go with tubes... the AVA set 120 is also a good choice, but less powerfull... As for the Sphinx, I read a very informative thread on AG comparing it with the Belles and the Belles clearly won... |
@alaindexe That is true, and more so if it is one's only system. Does that Sugden really get that hot? Possibly are you looking for a better match with your speakers? I forgot the Belles Aria in my post as one I might consider. I think it may be a top contender for your needs.
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@mesch : it'd probably better to select a pair of speakers first and then match them with a proper amp... |
@mesch : what are you speakers and what is their sensitity ? |
@alaindexe I am also looking for the same as described in your original post. I am considering the Rogue Sphink V3, AVA set 120, Vincent SV 500. Would also consider the Vincent SV 200 however likely would need more power. Not in any hurry might score one here off AG. |
@gwangler15 : just received Glen Croft's answer :
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@elliottbnewcombjr : of course, sometimes it can be worth coming up with proposals going against what someone wants, as long as you understand the needs of that person, which is not your case. I started a discussion on a similar topic last year ... At the time, I didn’t want any tube or class D ... as you can see, I’ve come a long way since ... all this to tell you that I have thought long and hard about the characteristics of my next amp and that I do not intend to buy myself a tube amp ...
yes of course ... it’s called making choices. Any sound system, even very high-end ones, are just compromises ... You just have to go to a concert hall to find out ... the trick is to come up with a compromise that satisfies us ... for my part, I decided to drop tubes for RATIONAL reasons ... my amplifier is on all day, in the summer it gets very hot in my place and I have no air conditioning ... you can make all the proposals you want, if they do not meet my needs, I will not take them into account ... |
OP, well, I didn’t read your full post, so I missed ’no tubes in output stage’, I was ready to get my butt outta this chair, I just wanted to let you know how terrific the Cayin sounds in case you didn’t know. IMO it’s a terrific value and one of the best sounding amps I have heard, sure glad I tried it. people give me contrarian advice, I do the same, so no offence, but with those efficient speakers, and modern integrated tube amps with easy and safe bias meters, I have to ask: Is it possible you are limiting the ’sound’, what it’s all about, for practical considerations? Based on past experiences when you perhaps knew less, had too much power/heat .... IOW, things are different with your current setup. Your speakers will easily fill the space with a 25 wpc amp, that ain’t too much heat, tubes or SS. Tubes can last 10,000 hrs, for me that’s around 14 years. We can blow em, and we all want quad matched, but even so, it’s not a big deal. Not having confidence about your tubes IS a big deal, pre or amp stage, which is why I always recommend you get a simple inexpensive tube tester. You test what you buy, check annually, check if problem suspected, most often get reassured it ain’t the tubes, ... It’s not that your wrong, but you might not be right!
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@gwangler15 : I just wrote to Glen to find out if it was possible to use the device without the tubes dedicated to the phono stage or to put a switch to turn them on and off whenever required ... I'll let you kwow what his answers is... thx for suggesting me to get in touch with him ... |
Hi, Al: Yes! The JBL 4435’s are amazing speakers, they have great bass and transient response and very low distortion and have a better low midrange then the 4430’s which I previously owned. The 4430 and 4435 are very coherent speakers. When the 4435’s are actively BI-AMPED, they sound even better. I use them for home HI-FI listening, Great imaging and sound stage. I also have a pair of JBL 4425’s that are nice little speakers. FWIW, Valveglow did a nice review on the 4435’s.
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@mofojo : most US sellers will not ship to Canada due to additional border hassles. I can buy from an American manufacturer (like Power Module) but I will have to pay 15% tax on arrival ... If I order a device not made in North America (Mexico / US / Canada) then I have to also pay import duty, which can greatly increase the price ... |
@metaldetektor : the Moonriver is quite a nice unit but it's about twice my budget... and it will never be available used in Canada... @gwangler15 : I've been thinking about modifying the circuit in order to shut down the phono stage... but this is tricky and may not be faisable... @rocket94 : according to what I read, it wouldn't be a good match... my Altec needs to be tame down, not the opposite... @theforerunner : I've checked on the used market and there are quite a few on sale here in Canada, which is always suspicious... not sure it'd be a good match... critics say it's a rivealing amp but my Altec are already quite revealing... |
The Krell S-300i has gotten mixed reviews, but I will tell yoiu what. For $1200-1500 used, I cannot think of anything that can touch it as far as a used integrated. Even though it was built in China, Dan Deogistino did not fool around with this piece. Sure he kept costs down as far as labor, but this is true Krell...I don't care what anybody says. It has endless power, good detail and a tight and dynamic bass punch. With efficent speakers, this bad boy really rocks and it plays all genres of music very well. |
I get what you are saying about the unused tubes in the phono section- you may be able to run it without tubes in that section- you can email Glen Croft and he will let you know. Even if you don’t use them, the JJ tubes are inexpensive. Glen told me that you can substitute any of the 12a tubes in (12au7, 12at7, 12ax7), so you can play with the gain and sound if you want. |
@ball-wheel : I stated that I don’t want tubes in the output stage... @letitbe1306 : that could be an option but I also have a Sugden D40 (made by Exposure) and it isn’t a good match... @blancpain1 : I doubt that the Nad would be better then my Sugden A25B... @jasonsim : see previous comment and replace «Nad» with «Cambridge» @rocket94 : this could be an option... I’ll make some research about it... thx @metaldetektor : not sure... it has a dac integrated into it and I don’t need that... @gwangler15 : your input is greatly appreciated... my only concern with the Croft Phono Integrated is that 2 of the 3 tubes are for the phono and I won't be using it... the Croft CGI (no phono) is also on my list but those rarely come across... |
In regards to the Croft, I had the Leben 300, the Rogue Sphynx v2, Electocompaniet ECI-3, Creek Destiny, and a Shindo Montrille (should not have sold that one). Except for the Shindo, the Croft was and is my favorite. It does not get very hot- just warm, and the sound gives just enough of that tube midrange that I prefer, without sounding syrupy. |
I have tried several of the Pass amps, and to my ears the Croft Integrated is just as good. The tubes are inexpensive and he voiced the amps to the JJ tubes. I rolled in some NOS tubes and eventually came back to the JJ. My amp is on all day long and has never had an issue or needed tube replacement. I run it through Reference 3a DeCapo’s which are 89db sensitivity and it hasmore than enough power to drive them. I also have a Decware SE34.5 “Rachael” with a CJ PV11 preamp, and it sounds very similar- which is excellent. If you have any questions, you can email him directly and he will respond quickly. |
In your small room with highly efficient 620A's and generally listening to streaming, I would look at NAD, it would be very enjoyable. In my years of listening I've had and still have many Amps, PreAmps, Intergrated, Tubes, SS and for the money NAD is good sounding equipment. I prefer McIntosh tube gear, but that's not what you are looking for. |
@ditusa : Wow! these are amazing speakers you have ... a friend who has a recording studio has 4430 and they are awesome ... never heard the 4435 but I guess the extra 15 inch gives it better response in the bass ... Do you use them for monitoring or hi-fi listening? It seems that I learned something new today ... I always thought that efficiency was expressed in db but now I see that sensitivity and efficiency are different ... sorry for the mistake .. AL |
Sorry for the confusion: Ok, Efficiency and sensitivity are not the same. My speakers are JBL 4435 monitors and have a sensitivity of 96 dB SPL @ 1 watt @ 1 meter @ 8 Ohm their efficiency is 2.7%. See the JBL manual below specifications last page. As for idle current consumption for Schiit Ragnarok 2 I don't know what that figure is my guess maybe 75 watts quiescent. As for the difference between sensitivity and efficiency see the link below JBL technical note first page sec;c. Hope that helps. Mike http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1984-4430-35.htm http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/notes/tech1-3a.htm |
@ditusa : I know about this class A/B thing ... I was talking about the class A section of the headphone which is - according to Schitt - 6 watts ... this doesn't seem much, but still I'm wary of the heat generated by class A ... BTW, it's not convincing to say that it heats up less than a 20 watts amp in class A since everyone knows that such an amp emits a LOT of heat ... I read the 52-pages pdf file with all the graphs and detailed specs but NOWHERE does Schitt mention standby consumption, idle consumption or give any other consumption figure, which seems suspicious for a company generating so many measurements for its devices ... You're right about one thing : the only way to know is to try it, but the problem is that I live in Canada and won't be able to take advantage of their trial offer because of the customs ... Finally, you wrote :
I've been in this hobby for over 40 years and never saw such a measure... efficiency is always measured in decibels (db), usually with 1 watt at 1 meter (with a pink noise) ... regards... AL |
Musical Fidelity M6 Encore 225 Loads of onboard features: DAC, CDP/ripper, 1 TB storage, streaming, digital/analog inputs. 225w class a/b into 8ohm. screaming deal at $2279. |
