My apologies_Upgrade path from Wilson WattPuppy 7's?

+1 Wilson Sasha WP

I’ve found once I get used to a particular way the sound is being presented and really enjoy it, change is really hard. Especially if desiring a true improvement in what ever sonic items I feel need improving.

Staying in house speaker wise, and moving up the food chain so to speak seems as prudent a tact as any, and more likely will keep in place those attributes I already enjoy, along with the technical advantages of the proposed new loudspeaker, ala WP7 > Sasha or Sabrina.

I’ve found more often than not what sounded very good at the ‘store’ sounds as good or better at home, once tweaked in, if the electrics are commensurate..

The only other noteable factor is mating the amp to speaker which if you stay in house, will be an easier task perhaps than stepping elsewhere.

Sabrina’s are garnering a lot of traction though, and they would sit you right on top of the latest WAS tech, and it may be your room should have a say so here too towards this next speaker exchange.

I’d say go back and listen again to some other makes you’ve heard or can hear and be as sure as you can before pulling the trigger on any new to you, speaker.

Best….

gerryah930
 Upgrade path from Wilson WattPuppy 7

I’ve heard all the WP’s that Wilson obsessed friends owned up to the 8’s Sasha and Sabina. The one out of those that stood out for me was the 7’s.
After that the Alexia I was a bit better and the Alexia II’s the best.
But in the affordable range it’s the WP 7’s, the 8’s were a step backwards.

Cheers George

Folks-

Thanks for the advice. I forget to mention that I already own Watt Puppy 7 speakers and my listening room is about 300 sq ft with sound absorption on walls and ceiling.

Thanks once again- Gerry

I forget to mention that I already own Watt Puppy 7 speakers

Yes I know, what I’m basically saying is to keep them, just make sure you drive them with an amp that has big current delivery, and is 100w or more to get the very best out of them. Current delivery is paramount!

Quote from Stereophile measurments:
" They will need a good high-current amplifier before it can be driven to satisfying levels. Its impedance drops to 2.4 ohms at 78Hz and remains below 6 ohms for much of the region where music has its maximum energy (fig.1). In addition, an impedance of 4 ohms at 59Hz is associated with an electrical phase angle of -34 degrees, which will add to the drive difficulty."

Cheers George

Just looked at your other posts, seems you have a  McIntosh 275? it is a very good amp with the right speakers!
But with the WP7's???? a total mismatch, it's a wonder it hasn't herniated trying to drive the 7's.

Read here, same applies to your speakers.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/amplification-for-wilson-audio-sasha-on-the-cheap
Cheers George

Agree with Georgehifi. WP 7s were the best WP. Although I preferred the Sashas to the 7s. Alexia 2s are fabulous.

A few observations from the OP of this thread:

(1) My McIntosh 275 VI has been measured at 90 watts, and has more than adequate current to drive the Wilson WP7 speakers that I own;
(2) I would like to thank the fellow from the Audio Connection who I talked to about speaker choices - thank-you so much for talking with me in an intelligent manner - it was extremely useful!
(3) I have demoed the following loudspeakers in my newly designed 307 sq ft listening room, and here are my observations:

1. Vandersteen Quatro CT's: Tremendously great speakers, especially for rock and jazz - not as good for strings (orchestral) - this could be related to improper placement and setup;
   
2. Wilson Yvettes: Great speakers, greater frequency range but less analytical than my WPs. Seem too expensive for what they provide, even at a demo price;
3. Wilson Audio MAXX3: Spectacular speakers, too much for my room;
4. Wilson Sasha 1: Actually sound somewhat better for violin, viola, and cello than my WP7's, even if they still contain the $7 tweeter!
5. Wilson Sabrina: Lack proper reproduction of cello in the low midrange - good speakers, but not for me;
6. Wilson Audio Alexia 1: Great, but I do not believe in this theory of time domain compensation or whatever it is called. Not as good in my room as either the MAXX3's, Sasha 1's or WP7's;
7. Wilson Audio Alexia 2: Fantastic. Not as good in my room as either the Sasha 1's or the Yvette's.
   

Sorry for TMI about Wilson loudspeakers. I still do not what to do, but am waiting on $$$ from the sale of my biotech company to act (have to wait until February). If you know anything about the biotech industry, you will probably know what company I am talking about (sold to Myriad Genetics in 2016).

Thank-you for all of your help - Gerry

(1) My McIntosh 275 VI has been measured at 90 watts, and has more than adequate current to drive the Wilson WP7 speakers that I own;

Sorry to say, it may sound good, but you have never heard the WP7’s at their best, with this amp.

You said in your first post you were naive, you really need to absorb what Stereophile has said here about the 7’s:

" Quote from Stereophile measurments:
" They will need a good high-current amplifier before it can be driven to satisfying levels. Its impedance drops to 2.4 ohms at 78Hz and remains below 6 ohms for much of the region where music has its maximum energy (fig.1). In addition, an impedance of 4 ohms at 59Hz is associated with an electrical phase angle of -34 degrees, which will add to the drive difficulty."

This is what the reviewer said about them, and what he used to drive them with, Halcro dm88 Reference monoblock power amplifier 
" The WATT/Puppy 7s produced an enormous sonic picture in my room, with the second most effortless presentation of depth and layered images that I’ve heard there."


You have a great speaker in the 7’s, you just need the right amp on them to hear them at their best, then you really think twice about changing them.


Cheers George

Gerry, you are naive, but I understand your love for the Mac amp. The WP7s are also something special. However, together, they are not a good match, ( the reason for your searching ). Listen to George, and : Try a high current ss amp. IMO, and, IME. MrD

Folks-

I understand. I have a friend here in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science (EECS) at the University of Michigan who has been an audio engineer for 30 years and runs the audio engineering lab here at the University of Michigan. He used to work for Conrad Johnson.

He took my McIntosh 275 VI into his lab and performed a series of SPL versus impedance measurements on the WP7, Vandersteen Seven Mk II (his speakers), Sabrina, Yvette, Alexia Series 2 and Sasha Series 1. He was surprised by the results.

I would be glad to post the data somewhere, although he may include some of the data in a manuscript he is writing. I don't know how to post the pages of curves he generated here, but it would make for a good discussion because you folks and he know more than I do, even if I am a pretty good scientist (see the "Amyloid Cascade Hypothesis", Science 1992, it just won a big award, you may even see me on network TV soon) - showing off here.

Thanks - Gerry

Gerry the Wilson 7’s needs good current to sound their best full stop.
The Mac 275 cannot do that, it would have to almost double it’s wattage for each halving of speaker load.
EG:
8ohms- 75w
4ohms-150w
2ohms-300w

This is why Stereophile reviewed the Wilson 7’s using the Halcro DM68 monoblocks

I say it again because you said you were naive, you have not heard the Wilson 7’s at their best with this Mac amp driving them.

Cheers George

Gerryah, 

We have owned and setup many pairs of WP,  Including the WP3/2 and the WP 5. We have customers with the WP 7.

We have also heard the current Wilson lineup as shows and at other dealers. 

You have made ain impressive list of some of the issues you have had with each of their models, the Mcintosh tube amplifiers are not really ideal for pushing the Wilsons, although one of the best combos  with WIlsons was the Vac Ren 70/70.

You should add the new Paradigm Persona which are very efficient and tube friendly, they are incredible imagers, and are remarkably transparent.

Also the Legacy Aeris is an unbelievable speaker system especially for the money, they have a warm midrange like what you like out of some of the Wilsons, they are very tube friendly and very efficient, and have a huge soundstage and very deep bass. They start at $21k with a room correction processor, preamp and dac, so you may be able to get an upgrade in terms of your other electronics as well, and with room correction you can get very good results in any size room,. the Aeris are giant killers and sound similar to a Maxx with the same kind of large presentation but in a much smaller room friendly package.

If you are every in the New York City area we have the Personas, the KEF Blades, the Legacy Aeris, and the Daili Epicon 8 all great

Perhaps a trip to the New York Metro area would enable you to hear all the contenders. There are Wilson dealers and Vandy dealers as well as our shop selling the Paradigms, KEF Blades, and the Legacys.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Why do you feel the Maxx 3 are too much for your room?  I run Maxx 2 and they are excellent al low volume or high and they are quite efficient - I am currently driving them with 70 tube watts

Yes Grgr4blu, we don’t have any experience with Wilson after outfitting Tommy Boy Records with 5 pairs of WP and a set of Maxxes in the nineties or the set of Wilson 7 that we recently setup for Fixbit last year or that isn’t any recent experience or a few other of our clients that own WP 7’s.

Or the store we visited selling Wilson in Maryland when we were at the Capital Audio Fest, where we heard the Alexia and the Alexandria X2 demoed with all top of the line gear last month, when delivering a set of Personas.

Interesting factoid, the gentleman who purchased the Personas who drove four hours to hear our set up of the Personas played a Steinway and we played the same track on the Personas very close to the real thing, by the way.

You will reply that you have owned many speakers yet you always seem to chime in when another speaker that we recomend is mentioned because we are bad apple trolls as you put it and how can any speaker made by anyone else can not ever be as good as a Wilson? How dare someone chime in and recommend another brand?

The real reason is you like many audiophiles are threatened when someone dares to question your choice.

We just did the New York Audio show with Legacy and you know what one gentleman came up to us and said "he heard all the Wilsons and the Legacy Aeris is a better speaker for a fraction of the money.

Please noitce that the Aeris is one of the top rated speakers in TAS as well as the Personas.

Please explain by what magic is a Wilson anything better than a Legacy Aeris with a Wavelet? The Wavelet provides state of the art room correction and electronically phase and time aligns all frequencies.

Oh I forgot a laser and a Wilson gauge is better then modern audio engineering.

You mistake my point, Wilson is a very good sounding speaker they are considered by many people in these forums to be the holy grail of loudspeakers, they are well built and well engineered and are but one choice in a myriad of good loudspeaker choices.

20 plus years ago I felt that the Watt Puppy was truly an amazing speaker but today they have a huge amount of talented competitors.

Why don’t you recommend that the OP to come to a shop like ours or one in his area and take a listen to some of these products and maybe he can find something that he likes that combines all the traits he is shooting for, the Legacy Aeris combines much of what he is looking for, by the way.

If you read his post you would see that he has a number of issues with everything he is currently demoing from Wilson, these include sound, tonal balance, value for dollar, size and a few other issues.

Yes Grgr4blu, this is getting so old. Let the people find out for themselves that when shopping for any speakers they should look at all the possible alternatives that might work for them and the Legacy Aeris are remarkable speakers for the money actually they are plain remarkable period, and the Personas if you have been reading the forums are slaying many of the competitors.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ.

To All:
Audiotroy is a bad apple troll

Thought there was something not quite right with the first post. Shilling for something came to mind.

Cheers George

George, Try to ignore Audiotroy.. He is always Shilling  and dissing Wilson
Where in Mi are you

Sorry Cap for your always shilling could it be after looking at Gerry's long laundry list of issues with the Wilson's that he has been looking at that someone should offer other advice rather then pounding the same dead cat.

Look at his observations:

1. Vandersteen Quatro CT's: Tremendously great speakers, especially for rock and jazz - not as good for strings (orchestral) - this could be related to improper placement and setup;
   
2. Wilson Yvettes: Great speakers, greater frequency range but less analytical than my WPs. Seem too expensive for what they provide, even at a demo price;
3. Wilson Audio MAXX3: Spectacular speakers, too much for my room;
4. Wilson Sasha 1: Actually sound somewhat better for violin, viola, and cello than my WP7's, even if they still contain the $7 tweeter!
5. Wilson Sabrina: Lack proper reproduction of cello in the low midrange - good speakers, but not for me;
6. Wilson Audio Alexia 1: Great, but I do not believe in this theory of time domain compensation or whatever it is called. Not as good in my room as either the MAXX3's, Sasha 1's or WP7's;
7. Wilson Audio Alexia 2: Fantastic. Not as good in my room as either the Sasha 1's or the Yvette.

If you read that does it seem that Gerry is convinced and totally in love with everything that he is hearing?

Cap, way too many audiophiles have the same experience that they are fiercely loyal to a brand and the product that they purchased, instead of looking at this objectively, we all want to love the products we purchased, but with that being said these are all tools, if you find a better one you move  out the old and in with the new and the market is always in flux.

When Wilson started Magico, Radiho, Rockport, Magico and YG as well as many others didn't exist. Wilson and to some extent Focal and then Avalon were the best speakers on the market.

If you noticed we did say the Wilsons sound good and are well constructed. The issue with many Wilson products is there ever increasing upward movement in cost and always coming out with a new model. 

You might actually find that  a disenting voice teaches you way more than another voice that agrees with what you allready like. 

Next time you are at an audio show, and Legacy is showing, listen to the Aeris and then see for yourself. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

http://pbnaudio.com/speakers/m2-5-loudspeaker


From its maker

Good Listening


Peter

I concurr - clearly Wilson is not going to take the OP to the next level of enjoyment. I would try Focal - similar bass heavy sound but better driver integration, IMHO. Alternatively, ATC are good at low mid range - in fact most speakers with a critically damped bass will do better at low mids than Wilson, Focal or B&W or any of the ported bass extended designs which all tend to "hum" in the deep LF and mask the lower mid range details.

Regarding the degree to which the OP’s MC275 VI may be a less than optimal match for Wilson speakers, while I have no directly relevant experience I suspect the reason some consider that to be a significant issue is in most cases NOT related to the current or drive capability of the amp. Rather, I suspect that in many cases people simply prefer the sonics of other amplifiers to those of the 275, when used with Wilson speakers.

The reason I say that is that the 275 has a much lower effective output impedance than the great majority of other high quality tube amps, and hence it will come closer than most tube amps to behaving like a comparably powerful solid state amp when driving a speaker having difficult impedance characteristics, and/or impedances which vary significantly over the frequency range.

Specifically, Stereophile measured the output impedance of the MC275 V as being only 0.33 ohms from its 4 ohm tap. And I suspect that the corresponding figure for the OP’s MC275 VI is even lower, as the damping factor of the V was specified as ">14," while being ">22" for the VI. (Damping factor and output impedance are inversely proportional). Consequently, the amp will come very close to doubling power delivery into halved load impedances, as long as its maximum power capability is not exceeded.

That all seems consistent, btw, with what the OP seemed to be alluding to when he referred to the measurements his EE friend had made.

Regards,
-- Al

Ken Kantor of NHT designed Stereophile’s "simulated loudspeaker load" network for them to use for their tests, as a copy of what NHT’s speakers load an amp like.

This (the grey trace) is the McIntosh 275’s effective frequency response into that "simulated speaker load) load, (it’s acting like a tone control)
https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/1010Macfig03.jpg

Now everyone here who knows their speakers, knows that the Wilson 7’s would be a far worse load than the simulated "NHT" load, have a look at any floor standing NHT load graph compared to the Wilson 7's. 
So it’s safe to say that the Mac 275’s frequency response into a "Wilson 7’s simulated load" would look even more awful than the NHT’s

Sorry Gerry, but it should be clear to most here now, that the Mac 275 is far from the ideal amp for the Wilson 7’s, unless you like listening to a tone control as an amp.

Cheers George

George, yes I saw that figure in the review of the MC275 V.

First, that figure is based on the 16 ohm tap (!), which per JA’s measurements has an output impedance of 0.87 ohms, which is well over twice as much as the 0.33 ohm output impedance of the 4 ohm tap (which is the tap that I presume would generally be used with most Wilson speakers). (Note that references to the 8 ohm tap appear identically in the captions beneath figures 1, 2, and 3, which is obviously a mistake, but the text makes clear which tap each figure applies to).

Second, the frequency response variation that is shown for the simulated speaker load, even with the 16 ohm tap, is within a range of about +0.4/-1.0 db, which doesn’t seem to me to be a big deal. Especially given that the dip of -1.0 db just occurs in a fairly narrow range of frequencies centered at a fairly high frequency, about 5 kHz. And for the 4 ohm tap the variation is within a range of an almost negligible +/- 0.25 db, as stated in the text.

Third, as I mentioned the output impedance of the MC275 VI is probably significantly less than that of the V.

Fourth, 0.33 ohms is a very small fraction of the impedances you quoted from Stereophile for the WP7:

Its impedance drops to 2.4 ohms at 78Hz and remains below 6 ohms for much of the region where music has its maximum energy (fig.1). In addition, an impedance of 4 ohms at 59Hz is associated with an electrical phase angle of -34 degrees, which will add to the drive difficulty.

Finally, as JA said in the review of the V:

... the modification of the McIntosh’s frequency response due to the interaction between this source impedance and the impedance modulus of the loudspeaker was relatively mild.

Regards,
-- Al

Ok here is the (misprint 8) 4ohm tap (gray) into the easy NHT simulated load, the Wilson will be significantly worse, probably double as bad. Especially around 100hz where the 7’s are 2ohm and -40 negative phase angle, which could equate to a EPDR of nearly 1ohm!!!! as seen by the amp.
.
If you like the sound not flat in frequency response, then good for you Al, I know you like your tubes, but the line has to be drawn somewhere between what your hear is the a flat FR, or one that’s very contoured the, 275 will be different in sound with all hard to drive speakers, such as the 7’s ect.
https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/1010Macfig02.jpg

Cheers George

Here is how the Boulder amp behaves into the simulated easy NHT load, note the grey scale is almost the same as the pure resistive ones. This is how an amp should behave into the NHT’s easy simulated load.
Yes it will be a little worse into the WP7’s but nowhere near as bad as the Mac 275 would be.
https://www.stereophile.com/images/217B2150fig1.jpg

Cheers George

Most of you know my protestations about Audiotroy's comments that consistently appear in threads about Wilsons. It's not about defending Wilsons. We all have our tastes in speakers and Wilsons are certainly not for everybody.  If I were an ATC, Raidho, Eggleston or Rockport fan (and I am, big time) and Audiotroy was constantly invading those threads to sell his wares, I would have the same problem.

Well Gpgr4blu, the OP got in his hoverpack from whichever state he is in and sped over to our shop and purchased two dozen pairs of speakers because of our suggestions. The reality is that I have no idea where Gerry lives and he has not contacted us so it doesn't look like he is coming. 

How about, you making some relevant suggestions, if the man has all the issues he has stated with Wilson what is your suggestion that he should do?

As some of the posters suggested he should change his amp,  and then he still may some of the same issues he is having. 

By suggesting the Legacy or Persona you have totally different products which work well with  his amplifier and both of these speakers are magnificent and highly rated.

The Legacy is more WIlson like then the Personas, with a big full rich sound, and with a Wavelet the speaker is totally customizable to match his room's acoustics, and taste. 

So now lets move away from your negative comments about my company, please offer a sages advice on what Gerry should do as he is clearly not convinced  and has found his next set of speakers.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

It has been a week since the OP has posted. What does this tell you ? 

Audiotroy:
You remind me of the Personas you always try to sell everywhere you go. A little bit on the bright side and pretty impressive at first. Then a bit too aggressive and annoying the more you listen.

My thanks for all the great responses and conversations. Although I am a scientist, I decided to change more than one variable at this time, but not yet the WattPuppy 7 speakers.

I have been talking to Rob at the Music Room in Boulder, and will be auditioning the newer PS Audio DirectStream DAC and transport with Bridge II (heavily discounted), and will be swapping out the McIntosh 275 VI amplifier for a Hegel H30 Reference power amplifier (used in stereo mode, not as monoblocks). 

I thought I would give the speakers once last chance with a more powerful amplifier. Let me know what you think of this configuration.

Once again, thank-you for all of the very helpful input - Gerry 

Tested H30.
" Not only is 350Wpc a hefty output power, the H30 meets the challenge of driving current-hungry loudspeakers by nearly doubling its 8-ohm-rated output power when driving 4 ohms (675Wpc into 4 ohms)."

Good choice, now you will hear the WP7’s for what they can do. Hope you get the H30 before changing anything else.
Pity it doesn't use Bi-Polar outputs instead of Mosfets, then they would have given some great 2ohm figures in the test done on it as well, and not just down to 4ohm.


Cheers George

George, not that it matters all that much, but it appears the statement you quoted about the amp providing 675 WPC into 4 ohms in stereo mode (which is from a TAS review) is probably taken from marketing literature, and conflicts with the independent measurements shown at this link:

Power output (stereo mode)

• Power output at 1% THD+N: 333.3W @ 8 ohms, 499.4W @ 4 ohms
• Power output at 10% THD+N: 365.2W @ 8 ohms, 576.0W @ 4 ohm

Also, as I read its description, it does in fact use bipolar output transistors, while using JFETs and MOSFETs elsewhere in its signal path.

That said, from a technical standpoint my only reservation about this amp would be its low input impedance (spec’d at 10K/20K unbalanced/balanced, measured at 8.6K/26.6K in stereo mode, and 5.3K/15.7K in mono mode). Many tube-based components and at least a few solid state components will have problems driving those impedances, which may constrain future changes in upstream components even if it isn’t an issue now.

Gerry, best of luck with your new components.

Regards,
-- Al

my only reservation about this amp would be its low input impedance
(spec’d at 10K/20K unbalanced/balanced

• Power:
• 333.3W @ 8 ohms,
• 499.4W @ 4 ohms

As Al posted, this H30 input impedance will make for a hard impedance match with tube, TVC or passive preamps. Solid state preamps should be fine.

Also the independent wattage figures (which relate to current ability), that Al found, are not so good either, as an indication of great current ability so tread carefully.

BTW: I’m sure Al or I could come up with some amp (with good current ability) recommendations, and a higher more usable input impedance, if you want that from us?  

Cheers George

Give the Focal Sopra 2 a try - hard to beat for the price.
However, with the run of used SF on AG you'll find a nice pair of Olympica 3's that will sound just sumptuous with your MAC gear.

Gerryah, 

A change in digital won't hurt but compared to modern speaker designs your WP 7 will still show their age. 

I would look at all the possible choices in your price range when you are ready. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Gerryah:
I hope you've learned, like many here, to ignore Audiotroy. Once again, he leads the thread in words produced. Apparently, he is not a Wilson dealer but used to work for one. So unlike most class dealers who choose not to denigrate your tastes, he damns Wilson with faint praise and goes on to suggest that the speakers he sells are better because they utilize more expensive drivers.
Nevertheless a number of audiophiles do not like the sound of beryllium  drivers. I, for one, have yet to hear a beryllium tweeter that I like.
 Your decision to hold off is a good one. I had the WP7s for years. Contrary to what Audiotroy says, if those speakers were produced by Wilson Audio today and cost 20k, they'd be better than most speakers in that price range IMHO.

Sorry Grgr4blu, as usual just plan wrong. The WP 7 is hardly by today's standards a world class loudspeaker, the Tioxid tweeter can be spiky and the fantastic paper and graphite Scanspeak midrange driver is many generations old compared to what Scanspeak is producing today.

Also if you look at the measurements you can see the famous Wilson lower mid bass hump. 

I owned the WP 5 the sevens were not much better, and as you forget in our last go around I have two clients with WP 7 so I do know what they sound like.

I am sure you will regale me with why the genius of Wilson can in a loudspeaker from 2003 out class all the modern contenders?

Sure the WP 7 would be $25k in today's money, I can make the same arugment when I purchased  a set of Quad ESL 63 in 1986 which were $3k and now the same speaker is $12k. 

Gerry should be looking at all the contenders that would make him happy, and as noted before the many had numerous issues with Wilson including the value for dollar proposition. 

As I have mentioned previously compare a set of Legacy Aeris at $25k to a pair of Wilson Maxx or Alexias, and see what you get for your money as well as technology, oh I forget moving a driver a few inches to physically time align a driver is so much more precise then using the world of dsp and room correction to time align every frequency. 

Gerry should open his mind to all the major loudspeakers and as you are a Beryilium basher read all the people who are listening to the Personas and are being blown away such as Brownsf on another post. 

The word is setup. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Audiotroy:
I know you are too busy selling to read OPs decision but he is wisely sticking with WP7s for now. I hope he will listen to trusted advisors in the future, not rank biased salesmen like you.

Grgr4blu it is not bias but reality, a 23 year old set of WP 7 is not really a competitive loudspeaker compaired with many modern designs.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

 

As an outside observer, I do not find audiotroy overbearing. He usually brings a decent amount of experience to bare and is polite and articulate. He doesn’t go on and on about one brand, he usually has a good list of options and even recommends things he doesn’t sell.

Not sure why all the hate, but I suppose there is the possibility I’ve missed bad behaviour.

Only an observation. I’ve never spoken with audiotroy and do not move in the realm of such expensive gear, so this is as outside an observation as you’re likely to get

@audiotroy

It is not just about competitive.

There is something to be said for designs that have stood the test of time and endured the critical listening of millions of ears. They have proven they are not simply this seasons latest passing fashion. The Paradigm Personas do indeed look technically very impressive and no doubt sound better, however, there is always a small risk with newer products - defects can develop over time and there is infant mortality on parts with a completely new ground up design. Also the appeal of the new product may not last and the manufacturer may rationalize and drop the line in favor of other products.

As you can appreciate, like a fine classic car, the Wilson WP has merits that come with having dominated or defined the high end for so long, The WP will always be a classic while the Persona may or may not become a legend.

My ATC are similar to Wilson, they come from the past - the golden age of studios and consequently they have been appreciated for many years by countless musicians, producers and engineers from Telarc to Sony to Yamaha to Mark Knopfler, Sting and Pink Floyd. They passed the test of tens of thousands of critical listeners over 30 years and like a good Les Paul - they are still bought today when building a new studio and 30 year old ATC can still be repaired with available replacement parts. There is value in that just like there is value in a classic by Dave Wilson. Wilson WP defined a sound that is a reference for many audiophiles.

That said, your comments are appreciated and your perspective is also correct - there is high performance to be had in modern designs and often for much less. Progress is wonderful.

As someone who was ( and still is ) in the " Linn camp ", everything prior to the speaker makes a significant difference. This is what is being done here. Anyone who says the WP7s are outdated, has never heard them to their max. Just my opinion, for what its worth.

Shadorne, even ATC has improved their products, the SCM 19V2 is a better speaker then the MK 1 so even amoung classic products developments lead to newer and better version of the same products. 

As per Mrdecibel, Fixbit has his WP 7 on Pass labs amp, ARC preamp and some other goodies, he heard our Persona setup, and noted how much better they sounded over his WP 7.

Another of our clients has WP 7 with VTL 7.5 and Butler Monad Tube amplifiers and some other goodies. 

As per your classic argument, just look at Wilson they went from WP 7 to the WP 8/Sasha to Sasha MK II so even WIlson must have thougtht that their newer designs were better or they need to continue to make way more money, don't know which is true. 

Honestly that last part is one of the reasons why I would not want to carry Wilson, the value proposition, why do their speakers get way more expensive with sometimes small changes, for example they change a tweeter and boom price goes up 30% over the last version.

To me that is a turn off. 

Hey Toodverne thanks for the nice comments, we calls them like we see them. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Audiotroy:
So you would not sell Wilsons because you claim incorrectly that they raise their prices over minor changes.  First, their changes from generation to generation usually involve many changes, some of which do not involve different drivers but many internal changes and some of which involve new drivers as well as numerous internal changes. 
 Of course, Wilson would never permit Audio Doctor to sell their products if you wanted to because, as you know, one of their dealer requirements is a brick and mortar store with appropriate listening rooms--- not a business run out of a personal residence as Audio Doctor does.
Toddverrone:
I appreciate your observation if you read this thread in a vacuum. I too might find Audiotroy's comments enlightening if I saw his comments on one or two threads only. However, you must look at Audiotroy's past post history to see his consistent habit and practice of invading threads having nothing to do with products he sells. His M.O. is to ostensibly educate the thread participants and the OP by pointing out why the product under discussion should be reconsidered in light of a better product or products which he just happens to sell. He especially likes to invade virtually any thread involving Wilsons to criticize the brand and/or to promote Paradigms and Legacys which, what a shock, he just happens to sell. It is really quite pathetic and annoying.  

He just did the same with Harbeth.

Grgr4blu, as usual we are here again.

Please look at both Geryah’s comments as well as Brownsf, if you remember Brownsf, was the gentleman with 20+ year old Proac Response series who after demoing a current set of Wilson’s was questioning if the Wilson’s were better.

To which we replied if you are not sure if a 20+ pair of speakers isn’t totally bettered by a modern set of speakers you are not convinced.

If you notice both Gerryah and Brownsf had issues with Wilson.

If your much vaulted Wilson’s were so magnificent, and so perfect for everyone, there would not be so many posters having issues.

As per cost differences in Wilson upgrades, please keep drinking the koolaid, do you honestly think that for the changes in materials from Sasha one to a Shasha two actually cost that much compared to the change in retail price?

In the case of Brownsf, he went and started listening to other options and interesting enough two of the speakers he liked KEF and Paradigm are brands we endorse, and one the Monitor Audio’s we do not.

What is interesting in Brownsf case if after evaluating the competition he is suddenly off of his Wilson hunt, I wonder why?

As per your comment about Home Based vs Conventional dealers, again you are just plain wrong, look at Neo Plus Ultra in Texas who is a Wilson Dealer,Audio Unlimited which is closed now in Colorado, Audio Limits also in Colorado, Gtt audio in NJ, Command A/V in Virginia, Audio Revelation and there are many others, many of these dealers are also run out of a Home location or are off the path or are located in a Home which was turned into a store, by the way what exactly constitues a store.

By definition a store is a place where mechandise is displayed isn't it? 

You mistake that we are a conventional brick and mortar run out of a private home vs a hobbist that usually only sell off brand esoteric proudcts and has a regular job

 We choose to do business this way as do many of the other dealers as it allows for lower business costs, instead of having to have rent on a store space, and a home mortgage, we have only one payment a month, it allows us greater freedom to purchase display equipment and to offer choice.

You will notice that we do not sell Mcintosh, why we feel that CJ, or BAT or Vac or a dozen other companies make generally better sounding products.

Most retailors have reasons why they endorse and don’t endorse certain lines.

We also don’t sell Rahido, why because they are wildly over in-flated for a company with woodern cabinets made in China coupled with those drivers which are expensive they just don’t add up.

We don’t love a famous British Monitor that is well loved with a lively wooden cabinet, please explain why a two way with limited bass and treble is worth $6,500.00? vs an ATC which costs $4,000.00?

One of our over ridding themes in why and how we select and promote products is the concept of value for dollar, if a product doesn’t offer that we are not interested in working with that company.

If you look at our history the products we promote challenge the status quo and usually cost 1/2 to 1/3 the products they are being compared to while many dealers continue to promote brands which offer marginal differences for maximium cost.

As your issue is with us being a home dealer lets look at just some of our eight listening areas, not featured KEF Blades, Paradigm Personas, Reference Amp Rack, Reference preamps and digital, turntables, starter audio room’s three listening areas.


https://www.facebook.com/122499304489958/photos/pcb.1738410759565463/1738410582898814/?type=3&th...

https://www.facebook.com/122499304489958/photos/pcb.1738410759565463/1738410389565500/?type=3&th...

https://www.facebook.com/122499304489958/photos/pcb.1738410759565463/1738410199565519/?type=3&th...

https://www.facebook.com/122499304489958/photos/pcb.1738410759565463/1738409832898889/?type=3&th...

Doesn’t look like a home based dealer now does it? Looks pretty brick and mortar to us.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

sorry Audiotroy. I actually don't bother to read your long winded defensive responses. You use way too many words. You remind me of Bo. Have you read Bo's posts? I don't know who does. It's the music I care about, not hot air.
Keep it short and I'll read it.

Thanks willemj. We need more like you to stop forum pollution.

Grgr4blu, maybe you should learn to open up your eyes as well as your ears.

You obviously don't read people's reservations, Gerryah and Brownsf, had or have with Wilsons products. 

No brand is perfect and we all appreciate different things. however, today especially there are a number of great products that offer fantastic performance for less money then ever before.  

I never see you mention a Golden Ear Reference, the new Magico A3, or a Legacy. Your time lambasting the Personas at dealers with dubious setup leads to your findings "of not liking Beryilium drivers," when most of the audio community and reviewers alike are chiming in that the Persona series is a breakthrough in sound quality for the price. 

That is one reason why we sell many brands of loudspeakers, you with your ever toading behavior is only ever talkng about Wilson although you say you have no loyalties to the brand you only seem to chime in with your opinions when the OP is mirroring your own.

If you are such a great source of audio knowledge when someone has an issue with a Wilson why don't you ever try to steer that person into looking at another product or brand? 

That is the difference between you and us, we make recommendations on many different products some we sell and some we do not. 

Please try to refrain from your standard sensibilties to attack us and instead offer the OP some of your fabulous guidance. perhaps and if the OP has issues with your brand  of choice, maybe the wiser consul is to recommend something else. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ