Is vinyl dead ?

No, Analog is alive and well thank you.
In a recent agon post 07-07-03: Member Aceto states
"There are some 400,000 new turntables sold each year. The industry does not want to publish vinyl sales, since CDs have been declining for thirteen years."

As we all know LP playback has never been better and the High-end has never been as affordable.

The lack of vinyl gear and accessories in the latest Audio Advisor catalogue is a quandary, but with so many online stores selling turntables, vinyl gear and accessories, it is a non-issue.
This is still a good Question as to why AA has chosen to reduce the number of Analog products in their catalogue.

If you look at Audio Advisor's web site you will find 22 items under Turntable and 22 items under Cartridge. Not to shabby for the niche AA has chosen to be in.

Not at all at all!
The world's biggest CD and record shop SATURN in Cologne, Germany just reopened and they have over 50.000 titles on vinyl in their basement. Also at Frankfurt Hifgh End Show there was NO room without a turntable or gear for playing vinyl.
I myself am looking for an upgrade for my old cartridge on SME 309 on a TRANSROTOR deck.
Forget about new formats, really!

Indeed, there's a resurgence of vinyl in the pro & dj market. Astonishingly enough, it's the YOUNG generation of dj's who are showing an increasing interest. Increasing enough for many new dance issues on 12" and NEW pro TTs. Go figure...

WORSE, there are now upper end pro mixers with TUBES -- whaaat???

Maybe vinyl gear doesnt sell well for audio advisor.Who wants to pay close to full retail?
They used to offer descent 'on the phone discounts'A little prying could get ya a good deal.No more in my experience.
I think they are a good source for assessories but thats it.
Yes Sean,I've noticed this with analog gear too.

I would hardly consider Audio Advisor to be a good/fair representation of what is taking place in the market. They are a step above Best Buy with a few hi-end pieces thrown in to fool the uninitiated.

AudiogoN would be a much better representation of what is happening in the market. Watch the ads and the forums. People are still very passionate about TT and LPs. It was pointed out recently that the difference between the number of 'analog' posts and the 'digital' posts isn't that far apart, especially for a medium people have been trying to bury for twenty years.

It is getting harder and harder to find good used vinyl because there are so many people competing for the same LPs.

Vinyl is as dead as the V8 engine, love, and meaningful lyrics!!!

Nrchy, With a little work, that last line of yours could be the next country music chart-buster.

Vinyl is dead as a mainstream commercial product. 95% of the market, or more, really doesn't care if the Lp sounds better than CD. I have given dozens of demos in my home over the years and the Lp continues to shock people who previously assumed CD was superior. But, not one of them went out and bought a turntable. To them CD sounds good enough and they can play it in their car, which is where most people listen anyway.

While there are exceptions to every rule, I seriously doubt vinyl will come back. In fifty years, after all the people like me who have collected records for decades are gone, vinyl will have disappeared to the same extent 78's have. I wish it wasn't so. Now is the time to buy a turntable that will last you the rest of your life and does not require the support of a local shop.

No, I can buy far more LP's today than last year and the trend was up from the year before...Vinyl is alive, just not mainstream.

Are you really saying that music is written today with meaningful lyrics? Wow, most of the music out today...you can't even understand the lyrics, much less determine if they are meaningful...

in any case, I think vinyl will always be around at some level...although we have seen the complete elimination of 78 records, there is still quite a collectible market for 45's. What I miss most about records in the main stream is the album covers. These were just so big and brilliant. They even have picture frames now for record albums. Little cd booklets are packed full of lyrics and pictures, but it is so small...hard to really enjoy. The gatefold was and still is so very cool.

I think the audio tape...at least the cheap one, may soon disappear. It mostly has already, few tape players in cars or as part of rigs at home. Making a mix tape has been replaced with a mix cd. The bigger the tape section at a record store, often means an older and lower quality store.

When I was a kid, my dream was to open a used record store. It now seems, though, that this will never happen. A used record store would never stay in business. Record Exchange has become Sound Exchange.....this is when it is safe to say vinyl is dead, the mom and pop used record stores are likely a thing of the past.... Of course now...few little music stores of any kind (cd, etc.) can stay in business.

sad

This is a dated question. Audio Advisor does not comprise the world of analog. You need to look at alternate sites that support analog.

I would say that although we are in the "digital age" a lover of analog music can find a larger selection of good turntables than in early 1980. Also, there is a good supply of re-issued LPs (of superior sonic quality than the orignals in some cases)

Everytime I go to Amoeba Records in Berkeley I see tons of people, mostly college kids, walking out with vinyl. They have a big selection.

You can't fool me! I've seen the headlines in the Enquirer and Sun Times: Vinyl spotted sunbathing in St. Tropez! Vinyl revisits home in Memphis! I'm Carrying Vinyl's Love-Child!!

No, no, no...it's right there in black and white; vinyl is very much alive and well, thank you very much! Now if vinyl could only take some of that weight off...still pretty big around the middle I've heard!

Marco

The wake is now in process. This is it. Say nothing bad about the dear departed.

Oh no it's not dead.
Neither is new music with good lyrics.
This place is turning into a gloomy catacomb of dead enthuasiasm.
Arise Audiogoners arise and play yer systems even with ye olde vinyl and ye olde artists.
Rejoice, rejoice we are alive and we have systems that Rawk!
Get me a beer I'm gonna crank that amp up......

The reports of analog's death have been circulating since the introduction of the CD about 20 years ago. Amazing how it is still kicking the butt of the CD after 20 years, isn't it?

As a owner of a record/cd store(thank God not my day job) I can say vinyl is not dead but is on life support. As far as sales goes, vinyl is probably less than 5 percent industry wide. It has become a niche market. Yes there are more lps available on vinyl than past years and yes analog is selling but compared to the digital market it is quite small. That said, I prefer vinyl over cd and still buy records but the future of music reproduction and music sales is digital. I think there will always be a vinyl(remember when it was just called records)market but it will grow smaller over the years. I still have folks walk into my store looking for 78s.

07-14-03: Twl - Amazing how it is still kicking the butt of the CD after 20 years, isn't it?

In what respect? Where do you get your numbers/information from?

I agree with Egrady. I agree with him that the majority of consumers out there think that CD sounds good enough and, in fact, superior to what vinyl sounded like on their mass market turntables (hiss, pops, and all of the bad TT specs).

Add to this the added convenience of being able to take their music anywhere in this form; no "tweaking" hassles of TT's; etc., and you find that in fact the CD may even be short-lived. Again, the large majority of consumers want good enough quality in favor of convenience. I believe that MP3's (or some similar digital file format) will send the CD/SACD/etc. to a similar end result as vinyl is currently seeing today (small/niche market). You don't have to worry about "skipping" problems with solid-state players. Even the best portable CD players today cannot resolve this problem completely (100%). And, you get even more storage capability to play even more songs. All at even less quality (more loss of information due to compression, file sizes, etc.) than CD - much less SACD!

Although, I believe that vinyl will continue to live a fairly long and continued life...but as a "niche" or seemingly underground (not meant in a negative context ;) market like it lives in today. I also believe that the CD will soon (relatively speaking) follow in its footsteps. :)

Twl - Vinyl may be kicking CDs' butt for quality (to a relatively small group of consumers, like those here on AudiogoN), but to the majority of consumers...CD has been kicking vinyl's butt where it counts (numbers sold/$$). Sure, there is a small group of consumers like those here on AudiogoN that will continue the "niche" audiophile market and who love the "best" quality that can be obtained by one's current budget, including vinyl. But, for the masses - convenience is "king". That's the way it's always been, and always will be. :)

Wes

Wes, I wholly agree that your "good enough for the mass market" theory will likely dictate sales levels. And, to some, the $$ "is where it counts" is also valid. I would, instead, be in the camp of quality over quantity. You may be very well correct that this is will always be a niche market. However, as long as there is some money to be made and there is still enough good vinyl to "go around", I don't think vinyl will DIE.

Plus, every time I go to my used records shops there is more and more competition, many being folks much younger than me, the majority of which seem to be female (at least where I live).

I almost always make it a point to ask them about their interest in vinyl (nice to have such a convenient topic for conversation, BTW), why they buy it, and what they play it on. Invariably, they say, "my mother/father plays/used to play LP's", "it just sounds better than CD", "I like the music and the covers", and "I am using their old table." They always ask, "I like XX's records. What else do you think I'd like".

I have inquired further of a few whom I subsequently got to know well enough to invite over for a listen to my system. While the quality of my front end does not approach many on this site, they were totally shocked and thrilled. Of course, for most, their point of comparison is the MP3 or equally inferior cheap CD deck at home or in the car.

No, the convenience of the CD (or future media) will never be replaced by vinyl in many applications in this portable world. But, I do think that if enough younger adults have a chance to hear vinyl reproduced as it should be, there may be a solid future for vinyl in home-based systems.

BTW, if a media of any kind can perform to my ears the same or better as a good vinyl rig AND be as convenient as CD, I'd buy it. Just haven't heard it as yet.

Wlusk, I really don't need to add anything to your statements. You've really said it all. For those interested in the mass market and convenience, there's the CD. For that small niche interested in the best sound quality, like audiophiles, there's the LP. I'll even make a concession that CD can be quite enjoyable in certain circumstances in an audiophile environment. For people who want both, there is both. Speaking for myself, I'm not interested in what satisfies convenience primarily. Except when convenience may be a requirement, like jogging or driving. For my home environment I use LPs, and in the car I use CDs.

07-14-03: 4yanx - I don't think vinyl will DIE.

Glad to see that you agree with me, 4yanx! :)

Twl, thank you for your kind words...and I agree with you as well. ;)

07-14-03: Twl - ...and in the car I use CDs.

And, soon you'll be using MP3's (or some other digital file format) - as many are already doing with the influx of MP3 capable units increasing on the market (for both home and car use). ;)

Wes

First of all, the comsumer was never given the oppurtunity to choose between vinyl and CD. As soon as this musical tradgedy was foisted on the listening public, vinyl was pulled from the bins and destroyed.

I went into the local purveyor of sound one week and there were literally millions of LPs there. Two weeks later I went back and they were in the process of repacking all their LPs and replacing them with those awful silver discs. CDs at that time sounded absolutely awful, now they are just not as good as LPs.

JVC, who had just invested millions on new presses and lathes dismantled them and refused to sell them to prospective buyers. Why would they not want to at least make back some of their investment by selling what they were not using? I don't like the X-Files, but something is a little fishy here!

Anyone who wanted to buy vinyl had to hunt like a madman to find anything. SO there never was any competition between the two formats.

Even today none of the big companies track LP sales. For those who bother to do it, they find that last year LP sales were up while CD sales have fallen of dramatically.

Even if that was not true, how many of us would be willing to accept the vote of the uninformed consumer as to what is the better medium?!?

I have a $3500 SACD player and a $3500 turntable/arm/cartridge combo. I'd say that's pretty even! The TT still sounds better, not different, but better!!! Vinyl might not sell as much as CD, but CDs sound dead.

No one was given the choice between vinyl and cd. On the retail side once cds came out the distributors(read labels) would no longer take returns on vinyl. In other words if you bought X copies of vinyl they were yours. On the other side if you bought cds and didn't sell them you could return them for credit. You can see why retailers had no choice but to get rid of vinyl and stock cds.

Egrady,"Vinyl is dead as a mainstream commercial product. 95% of the market, or more, really doesn't care if the Lp sounds better than CD."
Yes Vinyl is dead as a mainstream commercial product.
Vinyl it is now a high-end soft-wear product, that 95% of the mainstream don't care about.
95% or more of the general public either don't care about high-end audio or and I think a larger part of that 95% don't even know of the high-ends existence.

Egrady-"Now is the time to buy a turntable that will last you the rest of your life and does not require the support of a local shop."

I remember in the mid-eighties where "Stereophile" had an article that said that very thing. A couple of my friends went out and bought themselves new lp12's because they were afraid, very soon they would no longer be able to get one.

Now in 2003 vinyl is still alive and very well and growing.
So many new turntables to choose from, a lot more than in the mid-eighties.

You can now get a vinyl rig that is many times better than a lp12, for less money that a lp12 cost in 1985.

So much for the doom's day sayers. We will always have then with us.

Following the thread, logic dictates tubes were dead long long ago; transistors took over the world and provided reliable, convenient sound to the masses. Yeah, there is some damned fine solid state gear out there but I can't imagine a set up without tubes somewhere in the chain. Before we have an epic wake for vinyl think about great inventions that were surpassed by "new, better, cheaper, easier" and then consider what's plainly more enjoyable. In any event I'm glad I've always bucked the hardware AND software trends.

p.s. you have to be tone deaf to think MP3's sound anything like music. No wonder they're free to download at will, no one in their right mind would actually buy a MP3 recording.

I've got one question for you folks since we're on the subject. I've recently seen some 45 rpm adapters for a Linn for sale. Why would anyone pay $79 for a used adapter when you can get those little white or plastic 45 rpm adapters brand new for about $2 a package ??? : ) Sean
>

PS... I don't think that vinyl is dead, i just wanted to see if anyone else had noticed AA's most recent catalogue.

Sean- I got a 45 adapter from Radio Shack for 79 cents.(last one in stock) Still overpriced :~) I wonder if shun mook has any for <$1000?

Sean, the 45 adapter for the Linn is a pulley to adjust the speed to 45rpm, not the little hole adapter to put in the record. They are high on pricing, but not THAT bad.

07-14-03: Jeffloistarca - p.s. you have to be tone deaf to think MP3's sound anything like music. No wonder they're free to download at will, no one in their right mind would actually buy a MP3 recording.

This is your opinion (and probably the opinion of many on this forum). But, again, for the majority of consumers MP3's sound just fine (even good!) and they are much more eager to pay for the songs that they actually want vs. paying for songs they don't like (such as on a LP or CD). This is already happening, and will continue to increase!

This really isn't just about convenience. For the majority of consumers (like it or not), CD's & MP3's sound just fine - even good - for all of their listening pleasures (not just "on the go")!

I forgot to mention this earlier...you can see this in all kinds of markets - like HDTV. The only reason we are getting HDTV is that it is being forced on broadcasters and consumers (and everyone in between) by the government (via the FCC). The majority of consumers don't care about the added quality of the picture (and isn't enough to bring about such a change - and isn't enough to sell HDTV products alone).

I don't know if this is still true (wouldn't be surprised if it were), but back in the 90's, I believe it was, the #1 speaker (based on number of units sold) was Radio Shack! Most people don't want "the best", they just want what fits them within their budget (or even less, so that they can spend money on what they really want to - such as their hobbies, etc.). For many (if not most) here on AudiogoN, "audiophile" activities (including vinyl) is at least somewhat of a hobby, thus the difference between those here and the "average consumer".

I find myself somewhere in the middle of the two...I want good quality but have a limited budget (as most here do). But, specifically as it relates to vinyl - most of the "software" (music) that I buy is not on LPs (and is a small niche market), so if I want to be able to purchase what I want to listen to...that means following the mainstream (for the most-part). Sure I can find some old stuff in my genre from time-to-time. But anything new will be on the mainstream distribution platform of the time.

And, again, for the record - I am not a "nay-sayer", I don't believe that vinyl will DIE...just that it will have a limited following (as it does currently). Sure it's numbers will fluctuate from time-to-time, but I don't believe that it will ever be in prominence as it once was.

Wes

Rockinroni,

You misunderstood my point about getting a turntable now. I agree that there are more good turntables available now than ever before. I'm not maintaining the supply of tables is about to drop. But, unless you live in or near a major City there aren't many shops that support analog. How many Linn dealers service LP 12's today as opposed to 1985? My point is to get a turntable that doesn't require much dealer support. I sold my LP 12 as the local shop bit the dust and I lost my set up tech. I selected a Basis/Graham because it sounds great and needs no adjusting once it's set up, which is easy. I would be very wary of buying a turntable today that is tempermental.

Yep, vinyl is over. Do you have any 50's jazz LP's for sale?

Why not ask? It worked in the early 80's quite well.

Tube equipment is still around, in fact prehistoric single-ended amplifiers are a fad. Similarly, there are probably 80rpm records being spun somewhere, and perhaps even wax cylinders.

There will always be an interest in historic recordings, even if their sound is not up to the latest standards. It should be considered a different hobby.

The 80's those were the days, every weekend going to garage sales buying collections and trading most of all I gathered to the local used record shops for credit. I only have but a few of those old Garage sale LP's in my collection today.
I do however have a lot of cool stuff I got with the credit.

Egrady, Your statement says the Lp is going the way of the 78. Well the 78 is dead. 20 years ago many said the LP was dead, now is the time to get a turntable that doesn't require much dealer support. This is the very same thing you are saying, BUT I don't think buy your last post you mean the same thing the preachers of DOOM did back in 83.

I personally Have a new sprung turntable. I live in a smaller town and unless you live in a metropolis you will not find anyone to set-up your rig. Even in cities of 1 million you may only find 1 Hi FI dealer,and their setup guy may not be that good.

You really need to learn how to set-up and tweak your own Rig. Just as you needed to back 30 years ago. That is the only way to hit the sweet spot. You have to listen for yourself, and make sometimes many small adjustments.

Egrady, You have a great Rig and I bet it sounds fantastic.
I think by your last post you are saying you personally set the VTA & VTF. Then you know what I am talking about.
Lets keep buying Lp's and spinning vinyl.
Peace, Ron

The die hards still hang on, but truth be told, you wont see vinyl on display at the big dealers any more.
Soundex still has an occasional static dislpay every now and then, Overture's has dropped it for a while ago. Digital is much better than it used to be. I'm sure this response will bring much hate mail, but sometimes the truth hurts.
I myself never could never accept the pos and hisses, too distracting, and for what, a disc that slowly degrades with each use.

Vader

I heard they held a meeting in New York with the other record companies in 1989 and decided then that they would no longer make LP's the main format and push the CD. Could anyone confirm this? That would explain why Vinyl just disappeared over night. Look at how the Japanese manufacturers have tried to push different formats on us like DCC, then DAT, then Mini Disc, Then HDCD, then SACD, then DVD's, and now MP3. The japanese are always trying to invent something though it's not better just different so we as consumers will have to buy it. That would explain why JVC will not sell their presses and lathes or even the formula for the high quality vinyl they made. CD has been around for about 20 years but still has not come down in price and still doesn't sound better than vinyl. Why are the prices so high for CD's when the CD you buy for your home use are pretty cheap now. We never had a choice in the matter of vinyl, we were forced to buy CD's if we wanted new music. As for myself if I had a choice I would never have bought a CD player but if I want to listen to new music then I need one (see want I mean). If the record companies would keep records of LP's that are sold (new/used) from used record store and the top music store on line and everywhere then I think that the vinyl sale will be a lot higher than 1% of the total music sales. I have spent over the last 3 months about $375.00 on new LP's so thats quite a bit just by myself. We should all send letters or emails to the top record companies demanding that they at least run a limited amount of all new LP's with all new and older music and then they will see that the LP's would bring in a very nice profit and is still a popular format. It wouldn't hurt, all we need is a chance to show them which format we want when given the choice.

Steve...

Steve...

Of course vinyl is NOT dead !!

Vader: I've run Bel Canto DAC-1 and Perpetual Technologies P3A DACs for the last couple of years and was quite happy with them until I heard a Roksan Xerxes/Koetsu Rosewood turntable a couple of weeks ago. The sound of the vinyl set-up is so superior to CD, it's not funny!

I too, don't like the pops and crackles and the inconvenience of records - but there's no denying its superior sonic qualities.

See my post on the 'et tu Koetsu' thread.

Regards,

Steve M.

"...but sometimes the truth hurts." Valder, I looked at the pictures of your system. You need to go back to square one! There is no way anything will sound right in such a setup! Like I say, high end is who you are, not what you buy...

The die hard audiophiles still hang on, but those are the guys with the very expensive MCs and those weird looking tables. Truth is there's quite a number of young people buying vinyl. Here in Toledo Metro there's four Allied Record Exchanges and there's always people buying used vinyl. It's not a lot(good), but I recently bought a new Don Cherry reissue. That's a small market but those stores carry vinyl. It's a niche. I don't know how it will be 10 years from now but right now to me it's more fun to go to a used record store. No, those people don't have VPIs or Linn Sondek's or Teres. The better ones have old restored Empire's, Thorens and the others like me use the creature. But it is those of us who go down on our knees to go through the record piles to search for the goodies.

With psychic power and primal intensity,

Vader007,

Looking at your system I note that you, "have two power plants to seperate analog from digital" (your words).

Let me guess, you did this to protect your nice digital music from those analog nasties? ROTFLMAO.

Vader: Just saw the pics of your system, very nice!

Please don't take offence, but I'm amazed at the amount of money people spend on tweaky things. It's as if you get to a level where you've GOT all the good things, and then there's nowhere left to go so you start looking for things in rainbows.

The secret to good sound is system synergy and finding hardware that suits your taste. Instead of all those fancy cables and power conditioners you would be amazed ( for less money) if you simply plonked a secondhand high-end turntable in there, or switched your speaker to an electrostatic/panel/horn design or one using exotic hi-tech materials like Beryllium/Raven Ribbons/Accuton Ceramics.

All those fancy cables are appropriately named after snakes - Powersnakes/Pythons/Black Mamba...all 'snake oil' stuff, IMHO.

Please don't flame me for this guys, just trying to give another perspective.

Regards,

Steve M.

The main problem that guy has is setup. Everything is cluttered and the speakers are too big for the room, there is absolutely NO space to create a stereo image. The room would be good for a Bose 901 setup. That's the type of space they love (he!). I agree, better (and much smaller) speakers should have been set-up. That's why I love near field listening.

The power regenerators, though probably overkill in terms of $$$$ and size are something very important. I would have executed it with my own style...and forgone the expensive power cords.

But, what do I know? I'm the crazy guy that's in love with his modded 1200!

One more thing Vate, who's your audio dealer? He really screwed you selling you all that stuff and then throwing it all with no regards to anything! I want to avoid him like the plague!

Psychicanimal: While i agree that Vader's installation seems to be configured much moreso for convenience rather than performance, i sincerely doubt that the dealer had anything to do with this. As to the specific selection of gear that anyone owns, those are all personal decisions that nobody but ourselves are responsible for. I don't remember anyone, not even the pushiest dealer in town, ever holding a gun to my head and saying "pay retail for this and do it NOW". We buy what we like and think will work good. Obviously, some of us have different approaches and likes / dislikes than others, but hey, that's why they make different makes and models. After all, variety is the spice of life : ) Sean
>

PS... You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar. Rather than attack Vader and belittle the dealer he may have worked with, you might have tried to ask a few questions that might make him re-assess his installation or offer a few pointers that you know for certain could improve the installation. After all, i think that we've all learned from questions asked by others and / or posed to us. I also think that we've all had some form of outside help ( in most cases ) to help us better understand how things "should be" rather than how they currently are. I don't think that any of us, me included, woke up one day and know what we do now without some form of outside influence. Most of our knowledge comes from first hand experience gained over a very long and slow period of time and / or knowledge passed onto us from others that had experience and were willing to share. Nobody becomes a brain surgeon overnight.

Not sure where you live, Vader, but if it is in the Bay Area California, contact me. I bet that in one afternoon, and some flexibility with regard to placement (send the wife on a shopping trip?), there would be sound coming from that rig that you would not believe. Plus, I'd wager that a quality table in your rig would flip you with regard to analog (with digital remainig in its rightful place).

Sean: I used to sell audio equipment. I kind of know what happened here (don't need to be a psychic). And I'm not attacking the man, in fact I defended him from someone above joking him for having regenerators. Just told him he needs to go back to square one. He's the one that wrote that the truth sometimes hurts, so I assumed he's ready for it (maybe).

Now the dealer is one piece of work, let me tell you. The first question I always asked customers was the size of the room and the layout.

Psychicanimal,
I wasn't joking him for having regenerators. I have the poor man's equivalent, Exact Power EP15A. The joke was spending major bucks to seperate digital from analog, then posting that digital was superior. That's truly funny.

Vader,
Like some other crazies, we love the sinner but we hate the sin! Feel free to tell us what you think of all this unsolicited advice.

Sean, I have been trying to attract flies for years. Appearantly I've been going about this all wrong. I tried the 'not bathing' an similar things. All I need is honey???

No way! I've been putting together a modest but sweet analogue system these last few months ( AR, Luxman, Thorens, Grado ). Bought a Simply Vinyl 180gm pressing of Gerry Rafferty's "City to City". Cued up "Right Down the Line". I had such a physical reaction to the vocal harmonies
that my jaw dropped. This from a $500 investment! The upgrade bug will bite me soon. Dead? HA!

Unfortunately for the people who pose this question, they simply have not heard what a high quality vinyl rig can do. The real sham in the audio industry is the overhyped digital media which has yet to surpass a quality recorded LP on a Hi-end system.

It truly amazes me how many people felt personally attacked by my post, and felt the need to attack me and my system for whatever reasons. (which by the way sounds outstanding, and was completely matched before purchase.)
The dealers I work worth allow me to design and build a system in thier showroom for me to listen before I purchased each piece. When I consider un upgrade, I am allowed to bring each component to my home and evaluate it in my system first.
I was simply trying to point out that I shop in some of the bigger dealers (Soundex, Overtures and so on) and these guys never have a functional vinyl rig to listen to because of lack of demand. Also, if vinyl was so popular your larger music stores would still carry albums....they dont!
And for Dougdecan I guess I need to explain the seperation of analoge from vinyl I was talking about my amp/preamp vs my cd/dvd player or dac. I guess he dosnt have the common sense to figure that one out!

Maybe if they had a functional vinyl rig running in the store, they'd have some demand. But why do that, when it would mean they'd have to do setup, and educate the user? It's alot easier to just sell them an expensive CD player which would be embarrassed sonically by the presence of nearly any record player in the store. If I made my living by selling expensive CD players, I wouldn't have any analog rigs around either!

As for demand, the change was forced on the public by the music companies, and there was no "vote" on what was going to be the main consumer media. They announced it and called back the vinyl, and made all new media on CD. If you wanted new music and wanted to buy it at the local store, you bought CD, period. That was done to us, not us requesting it.

I'm not attacking Vader or his system, I'm just making some information known, that many already know.

The part that really gags me, is the discussion of "ticks and pops", as if that is the only difference between analog and digital, where the digital doesn't have them, so it's better. The "ticks and pops" are minimal if you care for and clean your records and have a decent rig. But the fact is that the musical information on the CD is lacking compared to vinyl. So to eliminate a small problem of an occasional noise, people sacrifice musical content. Oh, I know, no digital user wants to admit this, but it is all over this forum. "How can I make my CD player more analog sounding?", and "What's the most analog sounding digital player?", "If I get a CD player with a tube output stage, will it sound more like analog?" are themes that pop up regularly on these forum pages. This really isn't a discussion about which one is better sonically, because the answer is clear, and well known. All that ever comes up are the "red herrings" about record noise, convenience, software availability, remote control, etc. Notice that the sound quality is rarely, if ever, brought up in these discussions. That's because digital loses on sound quality. And it loses badly.

So if convenience and easy buying of CD's in the store is your bag, then fine, use digital. But if the criteria is audio quality, then analog takes the pot. And this is nothing new, it has been this way since the introduction of the CD, and it is still that way, even with the new formats of SACD and DVDA. The fact is that for top level performance, digital has never made the grade, despite all the promises to the contrary. No matter how expensive the player is. In fact, it amazes me that anybody is still buying into this digital stuff for audiophile use. It has never been what they tried to say it was. And even right now, you can buy some basic, entry level analog gear that will snuff about any digital player ever made. In fact, recently I read right here on Audiogon about a guy who bought a sub-$1k Music Hall TT and it burned his $6k digital player to the ground. Oh yeah, those nasty clicks and pops again. If you want quiet, just turn off your rig and it will be real quiet. If you want music of the highest caliber, then put on the ol' licorice pizza, because that is where it is, and there's no little shiny disc or player that has ever changed that fact.

If people would be more forthcoming with their real reasons for wanting digital, like convenience, then there wouldn't be any argument here. But, for some reason, there is this compelling desire to try to convince themselves and others that digital is just as good as analog, but is quiet and convenient. Sorry, but that just doesn't wash. It might be "good enough" so that the convenience makes you prefer it, but not on sound quality alone. I think this is the crux of the argument, and if you base your decision purely on sound, then analog wins hands-down. And we are audiophiles, right?

Twl, again you attack as if I know you personally. And you make too many assumptions. Look at my system, you think I cant afford a good if not great vinyl setup?
I choose not to. For many reasons. I have a life, I dont have time for fus with cleaning records, ajusting VTA, storing albums, and I really dont care for the sound! Not to mention most of the music I listen to is not available on vinyl. So why would I support a medium I cant listen to? I dont buy SACD's for the same reason and I like that format, but if I cant get software for it, what good is it to me? I live on the more detailed side of the coin, look at my equipment, my sonic taste is clear. So dont jam vinyl down my throat! And dont assume everyone likes it or that it is better. That is your opinion which you are entitled to.
But opinions are like assholes, evrybody has one and there seem to be a lot of both here.

I love all the opions from all these "experts" about how my system sounds when they never heard. As if I have to explain my decisions to anyone....Please!
This is not the community I signed up for.
If responding to threads is about being ripped apart and
attacked then consider this my last.