How important is it for you to attain a holographic image?

By your logic, a person sitting in the first row of a concert and ostensibly getting a more “holographic” picture of the sound, is having a better musical experience than someone sitting in the fifth row or tenth row or balcony.

I don’t think that’s the case.

Actual concertgoers disagree. They all pay more to sit closer. I've done both. Its no contest. Sitting in the balcony, much as I try to convince myself its just fine, the fact is I can look and see with my own eyes the bow moving on the soloists violin long after the last note has trailed off below hearing way up in the cheap seats. This actually happened. In the acoustic marvel of Benaroya Hall no less. How in the world is it a musical experience at all if you can't even hear it???

Why is it you guys don't (yet) have systems that allow you to sit wherever you want in the hall?

Boxer, if you're any kind of an audiophile, you have  adjusted you're speakers to the point where you have a good soundstage. This is the basis of "holography"; a good soundstage, once you get it, leave it alone.

Holography is based on "The propagation of sound". Since this is too complex for us to understand, forget about it, unless you can hire a professional to treat you're room. The sound waves in you're room is all we're dealing with, nothing more, nothing less.

Now, I have incredible holography; the kind that glues you to your listening chair until this is all you want to do. Each record presents something new and different, that also goes for each CD.


"Serendipity" the occurrence and development of events by chance in a happy or beneficial way. "a fortunate stroke of serendipity".

I explained this (Serendipity) on another post, it is the reason for my incredible holography; a lot of luck can go a long way. As I stated, I did not touch my speakers, or change one single solitary component; but you must realize, I have been pursuing this for thirty years; that's when I first heard it, 30 years ago. That means I acquired the components that I knew could deliver holography.

What I didn't know, is that once that has been done, it's all about the room.

orpheus, I agree that speaker placement is a big deal in regard to sound stage reproduction. Spent many hours experimenting with them in the past. They are staying where they are at for now. System sounds great & I'm leaving the cloth over the art (the cloth itself is art so I'm not losing anything there) until I'm done evaluating it. 

Boxer, I have 2x4 styrofoam sheets taped to my sliding glass patio door that I bought from home depot, and it's working quite well; but as you know, room treatment was not the intended purpose.

I'm simply going to think "Styrofoam" for the time being and go from there. Thicker styrofoam covered in speaker cloth with a frame could be made attractive.

orpheus105,917 posts01-21-2019 12:29pm
I’m simply going to think "Styrofoam" for the time being and go from there. Thicker styrofoam covered in speaker cloth with a frame could be made attractive.

>>>>>>Styrofoam, the audiophile’s secret weapon! And so attractive! Who woulda thunk?

The best thing about holography is that you wont be interested in buying new records, that's because your old records will be new all over again.

  Holography is nice but not a must.  My system images very well and that's enough to keep me seated for hours at a time.  I have a garage system comprised of a set of Advents I refoamed and recapped powered by a Sansui SA-7500 integrated with a tablet running Spotify that will give me just as much enjoyment at times.  The Advents are hung from the rafters. 

I lot of stuff I enjoy, you know, 60s and 70s stuff, was recorded and mastered with headphones in mind, so it’s not a real holographic soundstage, anyway. It’s more of a fake holographic soundstage. Plus, I listen on headphones so it’s a win win.

I recall an article - It's all about thee music article in HIFIPLUS years ago and thought what a total load of crap - otherwise we'd all be listening to £20 Walkmans or MP2 players.

As you invest more in a system and its' connection to you, you prioritise and prefer certain things - some people are tone sensitive, some rhythm sensitive, some treble - others spatial awareness.

To that end I think to some imaging is everything. It's often the mark of a better system - rarely do very good/ well put together systems - lack in this respect.

I personally cannot understand thee obsession for high end headphones - they do not image - they can't - Ken Ishiwata explained this succinctly at the High End shows in Hammersmith about how the signal from each speaker arrives at a different time to our ears.

Anyway I digress - simply put good imaging is usually a direct correlation to the overall ability of your system, it's coherence, balance and ability

How interesting this thread should pop up now. I am waiting on a pair of Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S "Hologram" speakers to arrive any day now. The sound stage is supposed to be amazing. Can't wait!

It seems that the lower the noise floor, the better the 3-D imaging becomes. With proper room treatments and specific tweaks, that noise floor can be reduced way, way, way .... way beyond what we could ever have imagined.

Frank

Go-ol-ly!  Sha-zam! 

"To that end I think to some imaging is everything. It's often the mark of a better system - rarely do very good/ well put together systems - lack in this respect."



That is so true; once I got "holography" tone and timbre were truer. Not one component did I change, not even did I move one speaker; it was all done through room treatment; but don't forget, that was after 30 years of upgrading components and trying for a better image.

If there is anyone here who has not made at least one room treatment, raise your hand?

Those cherished bass frequencies mess everything up; that's the place to start by placing bass traps in the corners.

I feel like a grade school teacher speaking to a high school class on this post, and I hope that's the case.

Falconquest, I looked over the reviews and specs on your speakers; they sound good, and if I had a spare 5K, I would give them a try. BTW, that's a good price for what they claim to deliver; which is holography that doesn't necessitate a lot of expensive room treatment. (my room treatment is not expensive, and neither is it attractive, but it works)

I think it is extremely important. I think most recording artists (vs ‘live performers) intentionally work to create excellent holographic images.

...Hendrix, Pink Floyd, NIN. 

My system will put sounds in your head, behind your head, right next to your ear and sometimes 12 feet away from one of the speakers. 

Wicked cool.

@falconquest 

we are looking forward to your initial thoughts and then hopefully a review of the Spatials when they arrive. 

As to room treatments and room corrections....

I have a concrete carpeted floor with another thick throw rug over that. I have some cheap rice papered changing screens and some ‘mass’ in my corners but those are my only room treatments. 

I found that that once I had proper power going to my woofers and very non-tube-like tube amp for my mids and highs, I no longer needed room correction or room treatments beyond what I have already listed. Everything just worked the way it should.

A high current, high dampening amp for your low end is a must. I still have ‘dance club’ bass but it is tuneful, fast, never bloated and it does not interfere with mids or highs. It just takes your breath away sometimes....

I am using Infinity Kappa 8 speaker. A very rare tube amp for my mids and highs and a BAT VK-500 for my low end. The VK-500 with BATPAK is just crazy good! 

Everyone should enjoy a good holographic setup. It’s like magic!

I was too lazy and my 185 lb Legacy Focus speakers are too heavy to easily move to the optimal position. So, I tried three positions and left them at 4’ from side walls, 9’ center to center and 5’ from rear wall. I sit 13’ feet from the front of the speaker. The speakers are angled at about 10-12 degrees. This is not ideal. So, over a decade ago I purchased Shakti Hallographs to focus the sound and expand the soundstage. Vocalists and instrument imaging is good but not always "touchable" when the correct Hallograph setting was found. I’ve since added a mid-room pair and installed 32 SR HFTs for diffusion. It works. I have depth and width of soundstage with precise imaging at the speakers and less so in the middle. The problem with either the room or the speakers still exists as to limit the imaging to high end standards. Otherwise, I’m satisfied with the great sound.  

I’m moving to a new dedicated listening only room (no storage of records). It has no windows, is rectangular and has built in bass traps (carbon filtered absorption paneling) effective down to 30 Hz in 12" deep wall cabinet type stud framing (plus other acoustic design features). If this radically improves the imaging, I will be surprised as I always thought the Focus speakers fault is that they don’t focus/image precisely. I will have to blame the former room then.

“Harmonic envelope” is a very good explanation of sound....almost holographic. 

The recording dictates what’s possible for reproduction in one’s audio system. 

The most holographic imaging I've ever heard has been in a friends JBL M2's.  I haven't listened extensively but the thing that is particularly astonishing is the "size" of the localized images of various instruments.  This is all in classical music.  Rather than even slightly larger than life images the individual instruments seem to be there hanging in space in a way I've never experienced with any other system.  Driven by a decent but far from spectacular front end consisting of one of the better Parasound preamps, an Oppo, and these huge digital crown amplifiers that have to be kept in an adjacent room because of fan noise.  I need to listen more to that system but off the top of my head it all just seems far too esoteric to me.  The aesthetics of those speakers are not my cup of tea and I don't have an adjacent room for the requisite crown amps that also run the dsp crossover/eq of that system.  When I first saw it I rolled my eyes a bit but hearing is believing.  They are also setup in a great room, great rectangular room, probably 5 feet to the rear wall and maybe 8 feet or more to the side walls.

The other thing I would point out is I hear live symphonic music here in Atlanta at least twice monthly and in my experience live music doesn't sound like the all that focused with regard to image localization of individual instruments as I experienced with the JBL M2's in my note above.  The sound in real live seems a bit more diffuse.  Absolutely effortless as the power builds in orchestral crescendos.  I have been to concerts all over the world at this point in my life and it is true that different concert halls sound "different" with some having more of a burnished/warmish sound than others for example.  Of course in concerto recordings, recordings just about any recording, the level of solos in balance against the level of the orchestra is far different from real life in a concert hall unless you're sitting in the first 5 rows.  In a recording the solo roles in concertos are usually pumped up much higher and more pronounced than I experience in a concert hall.

@pwhinson I don’t doubt your friends JBL m2 setup sounds amazing....

many people on this site would regard that system as ‘substandard’ or ‘not worthy’ of comment, but I have a feeling it works great.

i have been playing with Crown XLS 1500 and 1502 class d amplifiers.  They are meant for sound reinforcement and/or live gigs. They have internal crossovers and can produce some serious watts!  And they are super quiet, no buzzing or humming, and no heat. You can easily afford them and the fans never come on. At one point in a bi-amp setup I was using four of them in mono and throwing a combined 6000watts at my Infinity Kappas. The Crown XLS are great on the mids and highs—tube like, holographic—but for the lows they don’t have the dampening factor to stop the absolutely insanely designed lowend of the Infinity Kappas.

Honest I think the Crown XLS 1500 amps are very nice. 

Try finding a pair of JBL 4408’s or 4406’s and use a Crown or two to drive them. You can get holography in style and on the cheap!

I obtain holographic 3-d positioning only after I clean up all my electrical grid and also my audio grid...Before that with the same gear all sound was more between the speakers than atmospherically suspended around them with clear pin point accuracy of position... I am in near listening... I obtain also tonal accuracy only after this cleaning, then cleanliness, all things being equals about choice of gear, is the foremost fundamental necessity and the most underestimated one of all factors in audio...Money dont buy perfection, experiments and thinking helps very much more...

No electrical environment is the same, and my speakers are good (Mission Cyrus 781) but one is battered and more feeble with is tweeter(50 bucks paid) I dont doubt that the focal are probably better... I make already my own room treatment with cheap materials with success but I am in nearfield listening...The more difficult to gain is not imaging but holographic cellular atmospheric soundstage around the speakers not only between and naturalness of musical timbre of instrument...Never mind what you already own and your very good sound, it is better to clean the electrical grid and the audio grid this is the road for your gear to gain  their ultimate potential ...

Whoever feel holographic image is critical in listening enjoyment, would you please tell us where should we sit when we attend a live performance in a concert hall?

Thank you.

I dont think that listening a real concert and listening a files or a cd are the same thing at all... Even if a correlation in terms of sound space is possible, the 2 experiences are too much different to reduce one to the other....

And where to sit in a concert ? There are no rooms,or no live concert halls  that are identical et possess the sames acoustics, and we are all different individuals with different goals, then I had no ideas how to answer that...For me listening my audio system and a real concert had no relation at all,other than an acoustic methaphorical one,because there is many interpreters in the audible chain of events between the musician in the room or in the studio, the sound engineer  the mixer, etc and the listener...All these people had a different experiences...

bsimpson77 posts03-07-2019 2:27amWhoever feel holographic image is critical in listening enjoyment, would you please tell us where should we sit when we attend a live performance in a concert hall?

Thank you

>>>>>No, thank you! Thanks for highlighting an obvious advantage of home systems over a concert hall, I.e., a consistent and better holographic soundstage. Plus you don’t have to put up with all the coughing and snoring. 

@bsimpson Good call!

Plus some of us out here are trying to recreate what the artist(s) intended when they were in the studio mixing the album. 

Hendrix can only be fully appreciated in a system that produces holographic imaging. And I am not exaggerating.