I have run TJ mesh, EAT and now Takatsuki 300b tubes in my Wavac EC-300b. TJ is fun but ultimately loose and wayward, EAT is too controlled to be real fun although seriously punchy and Takatsuki just sings beautifully although it ultimately has less grunt than the EATs. In terms of clarity and air as well as soundstage it is in a different league from the other two, though. By the way, I use Tungsol KT66s as driver tubes; after a lot of different trials they are the best 6L6GCs around, although that is less than obvious from their nomenclature
Favorite 300B: Sophia vs KR
Which do you prefer; S.E.T. Princess 300B Carbon Plate or KR 300B WE Clone?
I've only experienced NOS 40's/50's WE so my expectations are pretty high. Which do you think captures the essence of the WE most closely? I'm trying to keep the cost down as much as possible so EAT is not an option, as much as I was blown away by their KT88. I considered current WE but they're not in production until Spring 2011.
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The Sophia Royal Princess seems over priced to me. If I'm not mistaken it is a re-labeled TJ Fullmusic 300B SE which goes for $700 on eBay. Even with shipping in doesn't reach $1,200 so what gives? Meanwhile Psvane 300B-T which is an improvement over the former Shuguang Treasure Z (as warm and liquid but more sparkle on top, more transparency and better bass control) goes for $510 and KR goes for $525. Is the Royal Princess that much better? I have some doubts but than we are in the hobby of diminishing returns. Of course the circuit of the amp and the interaction with the speakers may give an edge to one set of tubes over the other so this discussion becomes somewhat subjective. Case in mind is a friend of mine heard the TJ Mesh Plate in some SET galore in Hong Kong and thought it was super sweet as output tube but as a driver tube in my amp we both thought that although it was more transparent and airy than the Shuguang Treasure, it was bright, a bit grainy and gave a flatter presentation than the Shuguang Treasure. The Treasures are not the last word in transparency or air but are very liquid, dense and present very good image depth which is quite seductive. My latest experience is that the Psvane 300B-T are a noticeable improvement. |
Doron, Thanks very much for your impressions. I use the Shuguang Black Treasure(BT) and love them in my Coicident amplifier. If the Psvane is a step above the BT then I`m interested. Israel Bloom(Coincident) said the BT and Psvane were very close with a minimal edge to the Psvane(could be amplifier dependent). If the Psvane is as you say then 510 dollars is fair IMO. Are you certain the Royal Princess is just a TJ Full Music SE relabled? Have you personally compared it to the Psvane 300b? If they`re close sonically then the RP is overpriced. Have you any experience with the EML 300b? I`ll say this, the BT in my Frankenstein amp is perhaps the most transparent match I`ve yet heard in a home audio system. If the Psvane tops that then all I can say is wow! Best Regards, Charles |
My pleasure sharing my impressions . I am not familiar with the Frankenstein amps although heard good things about them. I have a friend with Coincident Super Eclipse III who use to drive them with the same amp I'm using (Heavily modified JAS Array 2.1 300B/805 A2 SET with 45 W per channel used with Joule-Electra LA-100 Mk III preamp) but could not get enough bass (to his taste) from the side firing woofers and now is driving them with with McAlister Audio OTL mono-blocks with 195 W(!) per channel. An overkill if you ask me but than very airy, open, clean and fast sound. Not really romantic or dense though, given these Coincident are ready intrinsically airy to my taste (pick your poison...). The Psvane 300B - T which functions as a driver tube in the JAS (drives the output 805), is definitely more transparent than the Treasures. Regarding Sophia, they are built by the same factory (TJ Fullmusic) with similar construction, under a different name with perhaps better QC and guaranty. Is it worth extra $500? Not to me. Go ask Sophia themselves and see what they say. EML might be good but again, ultra expensive and reading between the lines in 6 Moons, it seems like more hifi sounding, clean and fast but perhaps not as lush and liquid as the WE clones. Knowing the Coincident fast and airy sound I would think it may be too much of a good thing. Personally I would look into beefing the midrange of these speakers which is already fast and transparent, but that's just me. To summarize : I may be wrong about the EML but it is too expensive of a trial-and-error for me. Which Coincident are you using (you can email me privately to not hijack this thread). |
By the way, please have a look at the following link: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1201/300b/ If you look at the mesh plate tube, it has TJ on its base and the link Enjoy The Music provided is to Sophia's website. So they are re-labled TJ's with perhaps better testing prior to shipping. |
Hi Doron, You can just click system below my post to see pictures and description. I have no bass issues at all with my Frankenstein driving the Coincident speakers. My sense regarding the EML 300b is similar to yours(based on some reviews). The Psvane is a tube I just may take a chance on given my sucess with the Black Treasure tubes. |
The rumor that Sophia tubes are rebranded TJs that undergo a more rigorous testing and selection process is something I inquired about before splurging on the Royal Princesses. Sophia was unequivocal in their assurance that their tubes are not rebranded TJs. If I recall correctly, and I might not, Sophia was a substantial investor in TJ when TJ started up, so that the relationship between Sophia and TJ is something like the relationship between Lexus and Toyota. At least thats what I took away from it. |
If you compare between Toyota and Lexus, I will take Venza over Lexus RX350 any day. Paying $12K for better fit and finish but same engine, same suspension, same transmition and than the Venza being a bit lighter and with roomier interior, sure. But than some poeple will not buy a car if it deosn't have "L" on its grill which is perfectly fine. Sophia would have not existed as a business if there weren't people who were willing to pay $1,200 for a similar TJ Fullmusic 300B SE. To each his own. I just think the price is over the top. Western Electric ditto. Hype just kills our hobby. Not just in tubes. In every piece of gear, from fuses to speakers and we end up paying the price, if we choose to. I am just not convinced the value is there. Just my thoughts. |
Doron, Hype can certainly cause prices to become inflated(no doubt) but it`s not killing the"hobby". Fortunately in this market we`re able to spend and buy as we choose and within our own individual budgets. There`s such a large price range in high end audio, we all find our various levels. Doron, are you certain the Sophia RP and the TJ Full Musuc SE are 'identical' or just similiar? That could explain the differences. Jeff Day(Positive Feedback) just went nuts over the RP and I consider him a honest/reliable reviewer. In a perfect world I`d love to be able to compare the Sophia RP and the Takatsuki-TA 300b(expensive and somewhat hard to find) in my system head to head. Best Regards, |
Isochronism, For some reason I don`t see your email address on audiogon. You can email me [email protected]. Charles |
Isochronism, I promise, no Ornette Coleman, is Eric Dolphy ok? Auntjenof2, The BT have been 'excellen't in the Frankenstein.Thanks to the generosity of Isochronism I`ll have the opprotunity to compare the Sophia RP and my BT 300b in a few days. I do realize 300b tubes performance can vary when placed in different amplifiers. |
"Sophia would have not existed as a business if there weren't people who were willing to pay $1,200 for a similar TJ Fullmusic 300B SE. To each his own. I just think the price is over the top. Doron, Similar construction doesnt bother me. If the sound was too similar, that might. I never attempted to compare the TJFMs and the RPs because, at the time I was shopping, there was a lot of bad buzz about the durability of TJFMs. Youre making some bold assertions. Have you compared the two yourself? Charles1dad, I am eager to hear your evaluation. Always seeking your posts, I have come to think that we share some common musical values. |
Hi Phaelon, Well for certain we both appreciate Chet Baker and 300b amps. I`ve been very interested in the Royal Princess ever since I read Jeff Day`s review it almost seemed over the top in praise. Yet Maxmad wrote on this thread that the RP seems more hifi spectacular than a maker of music. We shall see( my 2 cents worth anyway). |
I wrote Jeff, who is a very nice gentleman by the way, my thoughts, after I read his. His response was more than enough for me to get extra prove that tubes perform not equally in differ amps. His system is out of my range and simply great, but I do own Tannoy's as well and drive them by Cary CAD 300sei with AVVT's and KR's, where all of them have their own tonality and presentation, but all sounds fantastic in the musical and balance way. There are 3 huge complains about RP that I have: 1. Their top end sounds to metallic 2. Their low end is to prominent and sound more as midbass than deep bass 3. Their mids are flat and even shouting in some situations to my taste, some may call neutral?, but midbass try to cover that issue, however without big success I have had almost the same issue with their Princess line, where mids were really good, but top end also had metallic tone and low end was to boomy. Already said enough about their MSRP and will leave this alone. On the positive note, there are folks I know personally, who loved them. One good friend of my running them in his beautiful Zanden 7000 and sold WE re-issue after all, so, for each is his own and that's a fact. Unfortunately, I didnt have the opportunity to hear them in his system yet, but we are planning something in May, so, I will try to come back with extra info after that. @Charles1dad Will be very interesting to read your impressions, but because you love BT's, which I didn't like in my Cary as well, I do expect you to like RP even more and if I have to choose from two, RP will be the one, but then again, based on my own system only. THX |
Maxmad, Thanks very much for your input. Our 300b amplifiers do differ and I have no doubts that is a significant factor in the sucess of one tube vs another. Couple that with different system components and it`s no wonder why there`s no universal'best' 300b or anything else for that matter. I`ll get the RP tomorrow if UPS cooperates. |
I have a pair of these http://app.audiogon.com/listings/456096 It's really pity that the seller didn't follow the advice of Jac from jacmusic, who clearly describes about AVVT tubes. They need to be treated with kind of wake up procedure, before you use them after years of storage and that's not possible at home, so, you need to send them to Jac for that. Some tubes even show really poor test results before treatment and become normal after, really strange and exciting that tubes can do that. Not sure about issue he describes, whatever it have something to do with their long term of not been used, is beyond me and you can better ask Jac about that one, but the price is good, however Jac still have them in stock for EUR500=USD650 a pair plus shipping and even with that price they are worth every penny, imo. One that I really like to try is EML 300XLS, which, according to some, give AVVT's a bit of the hard time, hmm, thats why they got and still have my attention. They don't have that "problem" that for example KR 300XLS have, not perform at their best if used in normal 300B amps. EML's perform identically good in both amplifications, while KR's shining in steroids amps only. And, there is always EAT, that I strongly believe are simply re-issue of AVVT 300B's. Not sure how they managed that, but I am kind of glad they did. |
Update, I got the RP tubes from brett yesterday but one of the tubes is nonfunctional(sigh). Brett says The tubes worked fine prior to shipping, so most likely damaged per UPS shipping. We`ve made arrangements with Sophia to replace and then match the new tube with the current good tube. The tubes will then be shipped back to me. |
Things are getting interesting in the upper tier of 300b tubes.This Psvane WE replica is 935.00 USD and is suppose to be a 'strict' copy,similar to whan the Japanese are doing with the Takaksuki-TA 300b. Psvane seems to have established a reputation for very high quality built and sound in a relatively short time. I spoke to Rachel (Grant Fidelity) yesterday. She says buyer feedback for the Psvane Black glass 300b(500.00USD) has been very enthusiastic. |
Interesting, to say the least. I was happy with the Shuguang Black Treasures until I decided to try the Royal Princess. No comparison. I usually read reviews with skepticism. However, in this case, Jeff Day was absolutely right. The Royal Princess give up nothing in terms of sonics and added a liquidity and musicality that were missing in the Black Treasures. Two caveats about the Royal Princess: (1) My first pair drew a high current - 68mA - and tripped my amplifier's protective circuit. Richard Wu willingly swapped them for ones that draw 41mA. (2) They generate a bit more heat than the Black Treasures. (BTW. . .Sophia Electric was a pleasure to deal with.) I have a pair of Takatsuki TA-300b on order. . . an expensive was to satisfy curiosity. The rave report of the Takatsukis that was syndicated in Six Moons used an amplifier made by the same manufacturer as my 300b SET. |
Gsm, I eagerly await your comparision of the Takaksuki and Royal Princess tubes. I f the RP exceeds the BT(my current standard) as you state then it`s truly a superb tube.Where did you purchase the Takatsuki? was it even more expensive than the RP? This is really becoming fun and so interesting. Damm, I keep thinking about that Takatsuki ever since that 6 Moons review. That group of Polish listeners really seem like music lovers as opposed to equiment driven-sound based audiophiles. I just want the 300b that communicates the emotion of music the best,the heck with hifi. |
Charles1dad: The pair of Takatsuki TA-300b are coming from Japan. Not sure when they will arrive. I ordered them from Amtrans in Tokyo (http://www.amtrans.co.jp). They are a bit more expensive than the Royal Princess - 100,000 yen. My CDP and amplifier are made in Krakow, Poland . . . so I know of the Krakow Sonic Society; and as I mentioned, the amp and CDP used to evaluate the Takatsukis are the top of the line from the same company. |
Gsm, Thanks for the information.At current conversion 100k yen=1300.00 USD. If the Takatsuki out performs the RP and that`s a big if, well for me if would get'major' consideration to purchase. Gsm I hope your tubes come soon. Boy, at 500.00 the Psvane black glass could be the sleeper in this mix. Regards, |
Gsm: I am also very curious at your findings of the Takasuki 300B vs. the RP. I second the results of the Psvang vs. the RP....the Psvang is not near as complete or refined and I would consider it a big step down from the RP. The RP has a very refined smooth/sweet top end and midrange liquidity yet portrays very high resolution done in a very musical way that draws you into the music. This is a tough combination to get right but it seems to do it with holographic imaging to spare. I do not have enough hours on them (50 and counting) to make a determination on the reliability but so far so good on my Border Patrol S10 EXD fixed bias amp. |
Chartles1dad, I wish I could compare the RPs to other premium tubes, but my 300b history is: Golden Dragons (came stock), Carbon Princesses, and the RPs. First, I agree with you that all 300b tubes arent ideal with all 300b amps, regardless of specs. Many of our peers wince at the word musicality; but that, in a nutshell, is exactly what is so special about these tubes. They offer all of the audiophile characteristics that are important to me, in a balanced, natural way, that brings me much closer to my ultimate goal of suspending disbelief that Im listening to real music. And for those who think enhancing musicality and detail are mutually exclusive endeavors, I think these tubes would be a real illumination. That said, my amp requires four of these suckers, and I would be delighted to find that I can have RP performance or better, for less. I hope this is helpful. |
My Takatsukis were delivered late yesterday. I will be able to compare them this weekend. I agree, it would be great to have all three "pretenders" to the WE300b throne in one place at one time for a three-way comparison. . . preferably with a Western Electric pair as well. However, it would be a bit expensive and unlikely. More than that, I suspect that each of us might come to a different conclusion depending on system, listening preferences, etc. Personally, I would be happy to find ones that I like a lot and stop there. |