Favorite 300B: Sophia vs KR

"Thanks for the Shuguang Treasure source. Much lower prices"

Much lower is right. It makes me wonder if the tubes they're selling are intended for export. I've read that Chinese export tubes are held to much more stringent standards.

"We shall see( my 2 cents worth anyway)”

Hi Charles1dad,
I’ll eat crow. Hell, I’ll eat a whole flock of crows if you save me a grand next time I have to re-tube :-)

Hi Sakahara, I'm shopping for 300bs too. Did you give any consideration to Emission Labs?

Sakahara, which EML 300b are you looking at?

“flock of crows"
I believe that’s supposed to be "murder of crows"

I hope the EML's are everything you want them to be Sakahara. I would really like to hear your impressions once they break in, especially given your experience with the Western Electrics. Now that I've rolled my small tubes, the 300b's are next.

Well Sakahara, you impress me as being a very astute listener with a keen sense of value. So I followed your lead and purchased the same Sophia tubes. That means that if I don't like them, it's your fault. :-)

In Seriousness, being the clod that I sometimes am, I just kicked and broke one of my 300b tubes which necessitated a spontaneous decision. You know, this might sound strange but I'm actually happy it happened, otherwise I would have been torturing myself for months longer. Luck to both of us.

I ordered a matched quad. Setting the bias of my amplifier to its minimum setting, I still can't achieve the amplifier's recommended bias. Sophia said they are willing to test for lower emission tubes to meet my amps specs, but that these tubes will actually be more satisfying. I'm trying to do a little research that will aid in my decision.

Sakahara, I ordered the ceramic base version. I also found Sue very pleasant.

Charles1dad, I wish there was a way that I could have auditioned the Treasures to hear for myself, but as I stated on another thread, a manufacturer, who has an extensive history of using 300bs in his push-pull amps, told me that the Treasures were disappointing when used with his PP circuitry.

"where this greedy attitude are comming from?!"

I can only imagine that as tube merchants see the thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars being spent on the tube amplifiers that their tubes will be used in, and knowing how much influence that the tube has on the amplifier's sound, that they want a piece of that action.

I received a replacement set of Sophia Carbon Princesses that were tested for lower emissions. They are biasing just fine. I wish I could make more appropriate comparisons, but for now, all I can say is that they are significantly more detailed, extended and dynamic than the Golden Dragons that they replaced. That's right out of the box. I was told to give them a hundred hours to break in.

Rgurney, Would you elaborate a bit on the Royal Princesse's improvement over the Carbon Princess? The Carbon Princesse's have so thoroughly trounced my Golden Dragons that comparison seems silly. In addition to the improvements that I was expecting in detail, dynamics and extension, there is better separation of instruments in a more believable space. Voices are striking in their naturalness. I live within walking distance of a small club that regularly features Patricia Barber, so I always use her CDs as a reference. Until now, I've been convinced that her CD's were on the dark side of neutral. Now, they sound so much closer to the real Patricia. Same for Keith Jarrett, who I try to hear whenever he's in town. There are many great 300b tubes that I haven't heard, so I'm really intrigued by the new Royals.

Sakahara, Are your tubes broken in enough for an evaluation? As somebody with a WE 300b history, I would value your comparison.

01-21-11: Rgurney
I've tried all the 300B tubes except EAT and this is the best for me.

Although I meant every word I said about the Carbon Princesse’s improvement over the Golden Dragons, curiosity got the better of me and I upgraded to the Royal Princesses. These tubes take me to the music venues in a way that I haven’t experienced. Soundstage, imaging and depth are significantly more realistic than before. Inner detail improved, and not just marginally. The big shocker is the improvement in the base. I believe that this is the best I’ve heard from tubes. All instruments and voices are more natural and present. I don’t have the 300b experience that some have, but I find it very easy to believe Rgurney.

Hi Charles1dad,
I sent the Carbon Princesses back. I should have compared the two more closely. All I can say now, is that no differences jumped out.....until I plugged them in.

This from the Sophia website:
"From the outside, the Royal Princess 300B tube looks similar to Carbon Plate Princess 300B (share the same glassware enclosure), however, the design philosophy is quite different and the internal design and material is different as well."

"So maybe sacrilege but have a push pull 300b tube amp”

Ladavid,
The 300b is a great tube and no less so because it’s used in a push-pull amp.
Given the money I had just sunk into my amplifier when I acquired it, I decided to stay with the stock tubes for a while. Since then, in addition to adding the Sophia Royal Princesses, I upgraded the small tubes with the best that I could find. In my system, the improvement has been so great that I wish I hadn’t waited.

It might be somewhat more challenging to find 300b tubes for push-pull amps, like ours, because most 300b tube reviews are conducted with SET amps. I have been advised that the findings in those reviews might not coincide with ours, using push-pulls.

Charles1dad, I actually feel sorry for my tech when he goes into detailed explanations with me. But he has worked with some very high end amp designers. What I did take away from our conversation is that it is enough that the demand the two designs place on the tube is different; regardless of which is more demanding.

"so would I expect the opposite in that I might not notice much difference with the Treasures on the 83db Ellis' but should be a wow with the Audio Notes. Curious.”

That’s a distinct possibility. A more revealing speaker should be more revealing of upstream improvements.

"The tubes don't hold bias well neither. Every other few days, I would need to re-bias the tubes.”

Bsimpson,
My experience couldn’t be more different. I installed the Royal Princesses and after three hours, set the bias at 1.09. By the next day, one channel drifted to 1.08. Having read your post, and it being about a month since my last check, I took new readings and measured one channel at 1.07 and the other at 1.08. While I only kept Sophia’s Carbon Plates for about a week, they seemed similarly stable. I guess I can only hope that your experience with short tube life will prove equally atypical. At least for me.

Hi Maxmad, I’m a happy owner of the Sophia Royals. I won’t disagree with your findings, which I couldn’t do anyway because you compared them to tubes I haven’t heard, but I’d like to say that 213 cobra’s points are very well stated. I’ve heard a variety of tubes demonstrate their sonic signatures very differently in different amps. I have a friend who is almost constantly modifying and tweaking his tubed components. After a modification, like cobra, he frequently winds up exploring his inventory of tubes and finding that a former reject now fills the bill.

A caution:
In a conversations with Sue from Sophia, she expressed great frustration with the number of Sophia counterfeits floating around.

"Sophia would have not existed as a business if there weren't people who were willing to pay $1,200 for a similar TJ Fullmusic 300B SE.
To each his own. I just think the price is over the top.”

Doron, Similar construction doesn’t bother me. If the sound was too similar, that might. I never attempted to compare the TJFMs and the RPs because, at the time I was shopping, there was a lot of bad buzz about the durability of TJFMs. You’re making some bold assertions. Have you compared the two yourself?

Charles1dad, I am eager to hear your evaluation. Always seeking your posts, I have come to think that we share some common musical values.

The rumor that Sophia tubes are rebranded TJs that undergo a more rigorous testing and selection process is something I inquired about before splurging on the Royal Princesses. Sophia was unequivocal in their assurance that their tubes are not rebranded TJs. If I recall correctly, and I might not, Sophia was a substantial investor in TJ when TJ started up, so that the relationship between Sophia and TJ is something like the relationship between Lexus and Toyota. At least that’s what I took away from it.

I guess I can freeze the crows :-)

Charles1dad,
No problem. Sorry for your inconvenience. Too bad the Takatsuki-TA 300b tubes couldn’t be included in your shoot-out.

GSM and Charle1dad,
It looks like the fate of the 300b world rests in your hands. Oh my... the pressure :-)

Chartles1dad,
I wish I could compare the RPs to other premium tubes, but my 300b history is: Golden Dragons (came stock), Carbon Princesses, and the RPs.

First, I agree with you that all 300b tubes aren’t ideal with all 300b amps, regardless of specs.

Many of our peers wince at the word musicality; but that, in a nutshell, is exactly what is so special about these tubes. They offer all of the audiophile characteristics that are important to me, in a balanced, natural way, that brings me much closer to my ultimate goal of suspending disbelief that I’m listening to real music. And for those who think enhancing musicality and detail are mutually exclusive endeavors, I think these tubes would be a real illumination.

That said, my amp requires four of these suckers, and I would be delighted to find that I can have RP performance or better, for less.

I hope this is helpful.

Chartles1dad, I was counting on you save me some money, not to tell me that $1200 wasn’t enough :-)

Hi Charles, I think it’s great when someone, who has a system as outstanding as yours, and really loves it, stays open minded and finds a way to take it to an even higher level - much higher level - it sounds like. As for myself, there’s no ego involved here, I like having options and would find it exciting if you confirmed what Maxmad said.

Thanks for taking the challenge, making the effort and sharing.

"Another, less exciting news, is that Takatsuki going to be much expensiver soon, say around JPY 30.000 = USD360 more than now...”

Maxmad - Yikes!!!

Charles1dad - Please, please don’t tell me that they blow the RPs away.

"This tube is off to a promising start that`s for sure.”

Alright!!! Meat’s still on the menu :-)

Pdreher,
I just want to second Charles1dad’s caution with the KRs. I was going to purchase them myself, but the distributor was admirably candid with me about their potential for finicky behavior, depending on the circuit application. So I had my tech take a host of measurements that KR recommended and was consequently advised that my amplifier would require modifications. That’s when I went with the RPs. Best of luck; I hear there incredibly dynamic when they work.

Charles1dad, Gwalt and all others who participated in the 300b comparisons, THANK YOU!!! We all have a lot of fun on Audiogon with some of our rather silly debates, but this is Audiogon at its best - members generously providing needed information that is not being adequately provided by the audio establishment. Tubes can rarely be auditioned, and with some tubes now costing as much or more than the components themselves, this kind of thread is vital. At least two things have been established here: There are some very high quality 300bs on the market that perform to standards in the classic Western Electric tradition. Also tubes don’t operate in a vacuum (no pun intended), they work with a circuit that has a substantial influence on how the tube sounds. As others experiment with these and other 300bs in their particular applications, I hope they will continue what Charles1dad started here and post their findings. Bravo!!!

"I am concerned about the Sophia RPs in the Ren circuit."

Swampwalker, that’s a very reasonable concern but I don’t think that you have to leave the results to chance. If you would like to try the RPs, I suggest putting Kevin Hayes in direct contact with Richard Wugang of Sophia to see if a tube set can be specked for your amp.

Antigrunge,
Excellent question; and even though this thread is about 300b tubes, the small tubes and their influence on power tubes should probably be addressed. Like Charles1dad, all my small tubes are old, scarce and expensive. But if you’re contemplating any of these very expensive 300bs, please spend the requisite time and energy and yes...money on the small tubes to get the best out of these very expensive 300b tubes. You wouldn’t put run of the mill tires on a Bugatti.

"I tried to express to him how much better the Takatsuki is.He said he`d check into them. I hope he does and was`nt just being polite with his response to me.”

Charles1dad,
LOL! I did the same thing and got the same response from the distributor of my NAF when I found the Royal Princesses. He was just being polite. I hope Israel takes keen to your suggestion. IMO, prospective buyers of any good 300b tube amplifier should be offered, or at least be made aware of, this upgrade potential.

Maxmad, JWM,

I agree that 800 hours is a long time but, just to reiterate, in the more typical SET application, expect 400-500 hours - yes, still a long time, but the journey was not at all unpleasant. Remember, I was enthusiastic about the RPs right out of the box. For me, this was a nice surprise. Also, I’m trying to be optimistic about the long break-in and am hoping it’s a sign of extra longevity.

Maxmad, if the RPs don’t appeal to you at all, I doubt if the additional break-in will change your mind. I think that Charles1dad is probably correct when he suggests that they might not be the ideal match with your amps. But I certainly hope they improve sufficiently so that you at least feel that you got your money’s worth.

It's been noted that the participants of this thread have laudably avoided engaging each other in divisive battles of defensiveness. I think that’s due, in no small part, to Charles1dad’s leadership role. I’m saying this because I don't want anyone to think that this is a response to the consensus that Takatsuki is superior to the Royal Princess. I’ve never heard the Takatsuki’s so I can’t speak to that at all. But I’ve decided to share something that I wasn’t going to share because I thought it it might sound like some kind of sour grapes. That, and the fact that it just seems goofy to me. It’s simply this: The Royal Princesses have a very, very long break-in period and RP buyers will have to be extremely patient to hear these tubes at anywhere near their best. We’re not talking about the kind of break-in where you’re almost there after a 100 hours with only subtle improvements to follow. I bought these tubes in February 2011. I wish I had logged usage hours but I’m going to estimate fifteen hours a week. Last month there was a unexpected and startling improvement in my system’s performance - I did not jump to the conclusion that it was the tubes. I think we’ve all experienced those inexplicable “good music days”. But after a week of listening to CD after CD, the fact is, that there was an unmistakable and very significant improvement in detail, resolution, and coherence, particularly noticeable in the lower mid-range and upper base (sorry fellas, I can’t speak to real base because my speaker’s frequency response starts rolling off below 50Hz). I haven't changed or altered anything in my system or room since inplimenting the RPs. I reluctantly called Richard Wugang at Sophia - reluctantly because I thought it was nuts to think there might be a really significant improvement after all this time. I asked him if it was possible to have real break-in occur at 800-1000 hours. He said it was possible but very unlikely to take quite that long. But he elaborated that there are other influences, for instance, the duration of the listening sessions and the amplifier’s demand on the tubes. Richard went on about carbon plate vs. metal plate break-in. He said the RP carbon plate typically needs a minimum of 400-500 hundred hours in a SET application and considerably more in a push-pull (big "ah-ha!" moment since my amp is a push-pull). He admitted that it’s been a problem getting customers to demonstrate that kind of patience, but that when they do, he will put these tubes up against any 300b on the market including the Takatsuki which he claims benefits from a relatively short break-in period. That of course is where that subjective thing comes in. But the one thing that I can definitely verify about the Royal Princesses, is that after 13 months of nearly daily use, there’s been a startling improvement in all of the music I’m playing. Once again, the intention of this post is, in no way, meant to rebut the magnificent reports on the Takatsuki 300b - I believe every word of them. I just want to alert those, who more recently purchased the Royal Princess’s, that the best is yet to come.

"Any opininons appreciated.”

Since you put it that way, I’ll give you my two cents worth. Unlike Charles1dad, I can’t make tube comparisons, but I’d like to comment on your concerns about the Royal Princess's. While I don’t have your same amplifier, I do have an amp that I think is very capable of discerning the subtle differences between tubes, and IMO, the RPs are not audiophile in the pejorative sense. I consider myself a music lover and I’m very sensitive to that audiophile sound that I believe you’re speaking of. Regarding "luscious warm midrange”, I suppose that’s subjective, but I will stick my neck out and say that you will not find the RPs cold and analytical. I’m not advising you, I’m just offering my opinions.

The posts on Jack Elliano intrigued me enough to look at his website where I came across his thoughts on tube rolling (link below). Although it relates specifically to his amplifier, I think it underscores the advise given by Charles1dad and others - that it’s not enough to buy a great tube - the tube only achieves greatness when implemented synergistically.

http://www.electrafidelity.com/tube-rolling/

Watersidedave, I’m sorry that you’re going through this. What are Sue and Richard doing for your customers? FWIW, I will conservatively estimate that I have at least 2000 hours on my quad, without a hiccup.

"And when the 300Bs are in service I will leave them on constant without powering off for a month or more straight at a time.”

Isochronism, Just a heads-up: In order to maximize their longevity, Sofia recommends that these tubes should not be left on for more that five hours at a time.

Just to be clear. I received no formal, written restrictions from Sophia. It was during a casual conversation with Sue that I received the five hour advise. Most of my friends, who have tube amplifiers, also try to minimize very extended sessions. I thought that this was common understanding. If this is unusual, I would welcome the thoughts of some of our more technically advanced members.

Thanks Onemug, The lack of any response in support of the notion that tubes need to rest hasn’t been lost on me. There are a lot of smart people on Audiogon. I could have taken it wrong, but in the context of our converstation, I came away with the strong impression that I was being advised to give the tubes a rest to avoid overstressing them. Not because they might pop, but because there would be an accumulated effect that could adversely impact longevity.

Great post Watersidedave. It's going to help a lot of 300b lovers understand tube selection a bit better. I’m also happy that ultimately, you found Sue and Richard as accommodating as I have.