I actually agree with you, Elizabeth. I would not spend 50% of the cost of electronics on power cables either, but 10-20% seems reasonable given the benefits. For my system, the cost is about 10-12%; Pangea would be more like 1% (and I still tried it out of curiosity, but it performed much closer to stock power cords than to good power cords).
Do IC and Power Cables Really Make a Difference?
If you had asked me a few months ago I would have said either "very little" or "not really" not from experience but from a generally cynical attitude regarding all the hype that often infects this hobby. However, I have come to a new opinion based upon my recent experiences with cable substitution that imparted such positive benefits that I had to share.
My system includes:
VPI Scout/JMW9/Dyna 20XH
Rotel RCD-971
Audio Research SP16
Audio Research 100.2
Harbeth Compact 7ES
I've had the system wired for several years as follows:
VPI Cable from the Scout to the SP16
Wireworld Eclipse from the SP16 to the 100.2
Wireworld Equinox III from the Rotel to the SP16
Naim NACA5 from the 100.2 to the Harbeth's
Stock Powercords for the SP16 and 100.2
And achieved very good results. However, after reading numerous posts extolling the virtues of Audience cables I decided to outfit the whole rig (except the VPI cable which I had custom made) with Audience wire. I began by replacing the IC's between amp and pre (Au24) and CD and pre (Conductor) and the speaker wires (Au24). I fired everything up and heard VERY slight differences in the sound--some of which I figured were in my head! As I listened further I began to feel that the new cables were slightly more musical, coherent and tonally correct than the previous set up. This was not a huge difference, rather very subtle. I doubt the casual listener would have heard it and I'm not even sure that I would have been able to tell the difference with a blind test. I attribute the small degree of change to the fact that the Wireworld cables were very good to begin with and that the Naim wire was no real slouch despite their inexpensive price tag. After about a month I took the next step of replacing the stock power cords with Audience Powercords. Holy Crap!! The system was markedly improved. The music emerges from a dead silent (blackness). Dynamics and speed are enhanced. Pace and timing are improved. Transparancy increased. This was not a minor change but rather a mindblowing one--akin to upgrading from an inexpensive integrated amp to full blown high end separates. And remember--I came into this very skeptical and fearful that I would be wasting my money. Bottom line: the Audience products and very good indeed and seem designed to work synergistically (in other words I don't think I enjoyed the full benefits of the IC's until I also put the powercords into the system). The powercords in particular were transformative. I don't know why or how they improve the sound but if you are on the fence about making the investment in aftermarket cords, are skeptical of their value or are looking for another excuse to upgrade your system (like you really need another excuse!) I cannot recommend these cables more highly. My system, which sounded good before, has reached another level altogether. I am particularly pleased with the additional openness, naturalness and dynamics that the cables provide. I just wish I had seen the light earlier.
My system includes:
VPI Scout/JMW9/Dyna 20XH
Rotel RCD-971
Audio Research SP16
Audio Research 100.2
Harbeth Compact 7ES
I've had the system wired for several years as follows:
VPI Cable from the Scout to the SP16
Wireworld Eclipse from the SP16 to the 100.2
Wireworld Equinox III from the Rotel to the SP16
Naim NACA5 from the 100.2 to the Harbeth's
Stock Powercords for the SP16 and 100.2
And achieved very good results. However, after reading numerous posts extolling the virtues of Audience cables I decided to outfit the whole rig (except the VPI cable which I had custom made) with Audience wire. I began by replacing the IC's between amp and pre (Au24) and CD and pre (Conductor) and the speaker wires (Au24). I fired everything up and heard VERY slight differences in the sound--some of which I figured were in my head! As I listened further I began to feel that the new cables were slightly more musical, coherent and tonally correct than the previous set up. This was not a huge difference, rather very subtle. I doubt the casual listener would have heard it and I'm not even sure that I would have been able to tell the difference with a blind test. I attribute the small degree of change to the fact that the Wireworld cables were very good to begin with and that the Naim wire was no real slouch despite their inexpensive price tag. After about a month I took the next step of replacing the stock power cords with Audience Powercords. Holy Crap!! The system was markedly improved. The music emerges from a dead silent (blackness). Dynamics and speed are enhanced. Pace and timing are improved. Transparancy increased. This was not a minor change but rather a mindblowing one--akin to upgrading from an inexpensive integrated amp to full blown high end separates. And remember--I came into this very skeptical and fearful that I would be wasting my money. Bottom line: the Audience products and very good indeed and seem designed to work synergistically (in other words I don't think I enjoyed the full benefits of the IC's until I also put the powercords into the system). The powercords in particular were transformative. I don't know why or how they improve the sound but if you are on the fence about making the investment in aftermarket cords, are skeptical of their value or are looking for another excuse to upgrade your system (like you really need another excuse!) I cannot recommend these cables more highly. My system, which sounded good before, has reached another level altogether. I am particularly pleased with the additional openness, naturalness and dynamics that the cables provide. I just wish I had seen the light earlier.
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Absolutely, that is my experience (and that of quite a few other Audiogon members - just do a search). The problem with your advice to other people is that you have not compared Pangea with good power cables. I built too several cords with cables from DH Audio to Furutech and many expensive plugs, and I came to a similar conclusion, that I cannot match good cables (not Pangea though - IME). |
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While I agree that it makes little sense to buy power cables that cost more than the electronics, good power cords can make a substantial difference in a good system. Based on my experience and that of several other folks on Audiogon, I advise you to stay away from Pangea. The only other "fancy looking" cables that were as bad in my systems were the PS Audio cables from 10-15 years ago (Prelude is one of the names I remember, and that was worse than anything one can buy at Home Depot). |
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Ah, someone with experience. I tried an Alpha NR recently and didn’t keep it (which I note I did not mention in my original post). What did you experience with the Alpha and Sigma in your system and were they both the "NR" designation? I have some thoughts, but I’d like to hear yours first, so as not to influence anyone. |
I submit "we" often make the mistake of one shoe fits all regarding audio components. I had the Alpha and Sigma power cords in my system and prefer the Audioquest Thunder power cord. Although I have Audioquest's Hurricane power cords, I directly compared the Thunder to the aforementioned Shunyata power cords. As with all components, but especially cables, it's so important to compare them in our systems. |
I've had every generation of Shunyata power cords ever made, and most of the models, including the Sigma Analogue, Sigma NR, The Alpha HC, The Alpha NR (the last three current), the initial ZiTrons (Cobra and Python), the CX Python and so on. And simultaneously I had Nordost Valhalla, Tyr (1 and 2), Frey (1 and 2) and Heimdall (1 and 2) power cords. As well as Nordost Heimdall 2 and Frey 2 interconnects. The Sigma and Alpha NR are quite the equal of the Nordost Odin line - which I hear at my dealer's (and in my house, if I want to listen). For power cords, Shunyata is fantastic. Have their speaker cables, too (Python and Cobra), but the Sigma power cords is as good as a Nordost Odin 2, which I played at the same time, in the same room, on the same system. In fact, the Shunyata was at a disadvantage, as it needs "settling time" once you move it around from room to room, or even re-arrange it in your system. (It usually takes about 2 hours). So, with ZERO "settling time," it was every bit the equal of the Nordost Odin 2. And that was the Shunyata NR vs. Odin. I wish the Delta was a ZiTron design, as I'm sure that would lift my system even higher, but I've just listened to the definitive "Girl Group of the '60s" CD, and while I listened (somewhat nonchalantly) and liked it, I never loved it until the Sigma and the Alpha NR were put into it and now I find myself hearing (easily) harmonies and dynamic levels from the background singers that I never noticed before (and if they were THERE to be noticed before, I would've heard that). Vocalists, in particular all had their own, individual voice, so it sounds like a group harmonizing and not at the expense of other instruments in the song, which shone for as rarely before. For the record, I'm using a Schiit Ygdrassil DAC and an Arcam FMJ 23 as transport, with Transparent premium SPDIF digital cable. After much listening, most of the Nordost has left (I'd have like to have wanted (as in "I- MUST-keep-that!" enthusiasm with the Nordost power cords, but, as "they" say, "I couldn't even..." Except for the Frey 2 and Heimdall 2 interconnects, which I very much like when combined with Shunyata power cords and speaker cable. All things considered, Shunyata is a Universal cable. I've yet to hear the system it didn't allow to sound like magic, if magic the recording was endowed with. |
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According to Audioquest the source is the best place to start with power cords; therefore I had a Pangea PGAC14XL2. I can’t recall all the details regarding the sonics of every power cord. I rather say what stood out to me and why I selected Audioquest power cords. To be honest, I didn’t have a home audition of the Audioquest Tornado or Hurricane. I actually had a home audition of Audioquest’s Thunder power cord, which is the least expensive cord in their new Storm series. "IN MY SYSTEM" the Thunder reduced the noise floor and provided a level of clarity and detail that surprised me compared to every other power cord that I had in my system. I was so impressed I immediately ordered three Hurricanes and two Tornados. All that being said, it wasn’t a night and day difference, but significant enough to my ears to justify the expenditure. |
It's nice to see someone who has experience in a wide variety of cables, I've ordered the Pangea recently, and I was wondering if you could compare that cable's sonics (hopefully they were pangea ac 14se mkii) to the Wireworld Platinum, Blue Circle and Audience for example as best as you can. I'm really interested in those improvements or whether they are more synergistic for your system. Also, what speakers do you have that accompany them. |
reggy, USB cable- I've only compared Wireworld Platinum to Audioquest's Diamond USB in my system and I choose the Wireworld Platinum. Power cables- I compared the following power cords in my system: Shunyata Alpha and Sigma, Wireworld Platinum and Silver Electra, Blue Circle, Audience, Panega, and Audioquest. I ended up purchasing three Audioquest Hurricane and two Tornado power cords. I recently sold my Tornado power cords and now I have all Audioquest Hurricanes. XLR- I had Wireworld Platinum XLRs, but after hearing Audioquest Niagara XLRs in my system I sold them. Prior to the Platinum I tried Kimber Hero, Silver cables and Transparent Audio. I have one set of Niagara and one set of Audioquest Fire. Speaker cables- After trying many speaker cables I settled on Clarus Crimson. |
@ricred1 yes a discussion rather than an argument is what I usually have in mind. Usually to gather insight as I like to acquire before deciding on a purchase myself, but sometimes in the process I question others in their purchases and where the products stand in respective to price-performance is albeit productive in its own purpose. I am curious on the cables you have set on, would you mind listing the power cables you decided on giving your unique budget? |
reggy, "Would you agree that there is a limit to spend on these power cables in respect to sanity regardless of how much money you have and the enhanced musical experience? " I agree that 'for me" there is a limit on what I'll spend for every component, including cables. I would never suggest there should be a limit for someone else. I submit that everyone should have a home audition of cables/power cords. Individually we should use our ears/wallets to determine if the sonic benefits are worth the cost. "Or are you the type of person who is no-cost objective to achieving that kind of performance you are ever so hoping for?" I think I already answered this question, but just in-case let me make it clear. No, I establish a range that I'm willing to spend for every component! "Can music sound great or "better" when the components are selectively and synergistically paired? Yes." I agree:) "Given everything is in order - DAC, preamp, amp, speakers can a $3000 cable make a substantial difference in comparison to the highest quality cables available using a bit of research <$300 - a "reasonably sane target price". NO, -- probably not ever justified, music can sound great but it can't sound that great of an improvement over that kind of money spend on power cables." This is where you and I have strong disagreement. I don't judge people or set limits on how they spend their money. If they want to spend $10K on a cable and/or power cord, who am I to judge them? Finally, I agree there is a law of diminishing returns, but it's different for everyone. Thanks for an honest discussion, |
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Reggy, I was going to type a very long response, but the definition of crazy is repeating the same thing and expecting different results. So, you're right, power cords don't make a difference. It's just a placebo effect! I'm selling all of my after market power cords and returning to stock power cords. |
@geoffkait the Hurricanes you bought is purely a mirage to make one think it really will make a significantly more enjoyable listening experience because, I guarantee if someone blinded you and told you were listening to the hurricane, meanwhile it could have been a Shunyata or Pangea, you would agree with confirmation bias what you were listening to "sounded better". From the looks of it what I’ve read, is unfortunately when someone takes the plunge to buy these hyped up products their subconscious would force them into thinking they really do sound a lot better, only to sound different. The lack of comparisons or lack of objectivity with blind tests shows otherwise across the forums. And then they tout others on the forums to self-consciously reassure themselves that their money was spent well. Have a laugh at this, it pretty sums up the marketing hype of cables in general: http://www.schiit.com/products/pyst-cables |
The fact that I responded to a 12 year old thread albeit my critical manner towards me understanding the reasoning of having to spend that much on power cables is a laugh by itself. In 2006 I was 15, time flies. @elizabeth Let's put the $9000 you've spent aside, I've done a bit of research these last couple hours and come to the conclusion that the power cables for the source do matter up to a certain degree as in changing the apparent sound, or providing a cleaner signal throughout so despite claims of people spending $1000 or more on power cables . At least that is my consensus up to a certain price bracket. It is still a mixed bag as always to discern between what will really make a difference when almost everybody has a different system and let alone I will never hear their system. Again I'm all about with respect to modesty, people must remember their are two sides to the hobby and the business side will always prevail to persuading people to sell premium priced equipment and of course the law of diminishing returns certainly prevails... I wish to gain fidelity up to a certain extent, but I am never wanting to seek for the perfect sound as I think it would not really satisfy me in the end nor workout for the majority of music I listen to anyway. You mentioned Pangea, never heard of it as I'm new to this scene but I've got to admit the Amazon reviews of the skeptics seem pretty honest to me, so I may consider that one for a simple upgrade for my Denafrips Ares DAC power supply and call that case closed. https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B0030ELBGK/ref=acr_offerlistingpage_text?ie=UTF8&showView... I'm currently using this one: E55943LL41230 I-SHENG 10A 125V 27.00118.011-R Power Cable, IS-14 A simple ABX test may turn out to show the Pangea is worthy. So thanks for letting us know about that one. |
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spent an additional $9000 on just interconnects Whew! Far be it from me to say you shouldn't spend money on what makes you happy. But when I read such things I'm very glad high end cables are not part of my audio obsession. I look at $9,000 spent on interconnects and just think of all the other things I could buy instead. It's expensive enough just getting the speakers I like! People here often ask "why bother asking skeptical questions about whether high end cables are worth the money? If you like them, just buy them; it's your money!" That's obviously true on one level. I wouldn't want anyone dictating what I spend my money on. But being informed that some claims are sketchy, or at least controversial, and why, is a way of being a more informed consumer. And, personally, if I was considering whether my 9 grand was well spent, and it may be the case that my 9 grand was not going to in fact get any better performance over a vastly less expensive set of cables, then that's something I'd really want to know, so I can save that money and put it to use elsewhere. I would think most people actually feel the same way. It's just that most people in this cables forum of course feel that the cables they are buying are making that sonic difference, and that it's worth it to them. But if they had good evidence the cables didn't make the sonic difference they believed, I'd think most people here would save their money. Personally I was helped out long ago by listening to both sides of the cable debates, and it helped push me to further test my own impressions. I almost bought a $2,500 AC cable, sure that it had transformed the sound of my system. But then I went on to test it blinded against a good quality $15 AC cable and could detect no reliable difference at all. I was glad to save that money! That's why I think the discussion as to whether high end cable manufacturers claims are valid is always a worthwhile discussion. Of course some will always land on the side of their subjective impressions, but others, upon being informed by such debates may decide the evidence isn't strong enough to put their money into high end cabling and be happy with the savings. |
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@TVAD @dodgealum http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audience-next-generation-powerchord-models-the-new-au24-sx-... The powerChord SE-I is available at $915 suggested retail Au24 SE-i powerChord has a suggested retail price of $2,560 The powerChord Au24 SX MP 13 AWG medium-power version powerChord is available at $3,500 suggested retail The 6-foot Au24SX 10 AWG powerChord carries a suggested retail price of $4,600 Let me guess you tried the base version and noticed a huge difference in the quality and then bought the most expensive one costing you $4600 and noticed a HUGER difference. The engineering and costs that goes into making and building these cables far surpasses the audible differences in sound quality you could ever hear. It's all snake oil salesman after that, and someone is clearly f*CKED to want to spend a whopping 5 grand on an "Audiophile" power cord (you didn't right?). Without a double blind test your mind tricked you into it sounding better, dozen of examples on that you can find in published experiments it's called expectation bias. The mind and expectation bias is a very powerful and malleable thing, until you claim to do a double blind test, I don't believe anyone including yourself could tell the difference between a well constructed non-defective generic power cord that costs less than $30 and one of the Audience power chords, nor should anyone else for the respect to their wallet let alone sanity. |
As much as the speaker crossover mods wowed me so did the cable upgrades. The main difference is that I upgraded the cables in steps being impressed each time. If you were able to mod your speakers at a reasonable cost then that's a really good thing, better than cables, as the cables can be quite costly. Price to performance ratio you are definately right. Enen at the cost of having a tech do my ctossovers and even though I got relatively expensive parts it was still less than the price of one cable. |
Mitch, I quickly looked over your system to include your listening environment. Your environment and system will allow for audible improvements to be heard more than my environment and system. If I can quote from your system thread - "After 90 hours or so I realize that my Hales are in a completely different league than they used to be. They are now a much better cleaner bigger sounding speaker.The sound is so clean that I can play music loud without getting fatigued. At low levels the sound is bigger sounding than it was before at the same volume. The sound stage is wider from side to side and from front to back. What comes to mind is "like a tricycle to a Harley" The vocals have opened up in such a way as voices take on a much larger space in my room being more realistic sounding. The bass is deeper and more pronounced without boominess. The highs are sweet and the midrange is smooth. This is only after 90 hours. It will improve more over time. I can only imagine but I will hear in time what the final results will be. I've heard horror stories of peoples faillures with crossover mods so I consider myself very lucky to have done it with good results. With a little over 300 hours on my speakers with the crossover mods the sound is really beginning to open up. The sound is also becoming sweeter and sweeter.Ic do not regret modding the crossovers. I have a much better speaker in return." What you describe is exactly what I heard from upgrading my speaker crossover networks. I would add that the cost, at least for me since I do all my own work, was a very small fraction of just a single pair of IC's. Also important to note is that upgrading the capacitors and resistors doesn't impact system synergy. Some people prefer certain cabling to use with certain equipment. Caps and resistors don't care, they just improve the sonics. Price/Performance is clearly in favor of upgrading the electronics vs. the cabling. The cabling does improve things, I agree, but dollar-for-dollar the simple swapping of capacitors and resistors is a winner. I'm now in the process of upgrading all the capacitors in my EAD CD-1000 mkIII and can't wait to hear the results. |
Vman71, I did both upgrade my crossovers in my speakers and upgrade my cabling. I found that both moves were equally important and both moves nade as nuch as an improvement with maybe the cabling making a bit more of a difference if anything. The speaker crossover move was an improvement in the sound of the speaker and was a good move but the cabling upgrades blew me away each step of the way.The speaker upgrade made much better speakers but the cable upgrades made much better the entire system. I think the cable moves made as much at least as the crossover mods a positive difference |
I noticed a difference when I replaced my basic monster speaker cable with some VooDoo Refernece speaker cable. The real difference came when I upgraded the crossover networks in my Klipsch speakers. I replaced every capacitor and resistor with high quality capacitors and resistors. A fraction of the cost of buying a new IC, PC or SC. This has led me to the conclusion that equipment upgrades make more of a difference than cabling upgrades. Just my humble opinion. |
The cords can make all the difference.As you go through different qualities of cords it's like upgrading your system with each move. I've upgraded my system several times while still keeping the same electronics. I just kept getting better(not necessarily more expensive) cables. That being said the Audience cables and cords are pretty good. |
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Thanks, Tvad. I wasn't aware of controversey over what was being used in some of the aftermarket cables. The issue in my mind was whether different materials and cable design/construction could have an impact (good or ill) on the sound of audio components. My skepticism was grounded in the idea that "wire is wire" and that if the appropriate thickness for the current load was being used then issues of materials, design, etc. would be irrelevant (sonically). I have to say that I am really surprised by what I am hearing. I just finished listening to string quartets by Mozart (Quartetto Italiano on Phillips), a record I have owned for many years and played often. I gained completely new insight into the music. In one passage where the strings are plucked I was stunned by the difference in sound. Instead of an amorphous, dull "plunk" which was barely audible through the haze I heard a clear and snappy "plink" that had realistic tone and decay. The leading and trailing edges of the sound were much more focused and the sound emerged from a three dimensional space with focus and realism. This is the kind of improvement I'm hearing across the spectrum. I can also play the piece louder without straining my ears since there is less grundge and grit. I'm really enjoying this--much more that I thought I would when I made the initial purchase. Anyway, again, my post wasn't necessarily intended to rave about the Audience products per se but rather to point out that in my experience replacement of the stock power cords really did improve things dramatically. I do feel, however, that there may be a cumulative and synergistic benefit to using the Audience products across the board--though I have no way of knowing for sure and am not about to experiment with other brands to find out. |
I upgraded from Audioquest Viper interconnects and Bedrock speaker cables to Audioquest Anaconda interconnects and Volcano speaker cables and heard a substantial improvement through out the audio spectrum; deeper better defined bass and cleaner more detailed high end extension. As far as power cords go I heard a difference with upgrading the cord on my cd player (blacker background) and not much difference on my amp and pre-amp. Chuck |
Tvad I think that the manufacturers are too smart ,way smarter than the average Joe.When they sell their cords at these prices who in his right mind will pay that premium only to buy and then cut open.Even if somebody actually do it,nobody will accept his "findings".So it's pointless ,as others have said it noumerous times before ,you are either a believer of premium PC or not.For the record I too got some aftermarket PC ,what the heck everybody else does mind as well. Kindly regards George |
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