Jtinn,
Beleive me, I'd love to chime in on this too, but lets be real. Your opinion is not without bias, lets face it.
Steve
Beleive me, I'd love to chime in on this too, but lets be real. Your opinion is not without bias, lets face it.
Steve
Comparing Wadia vs. Meitner
I believe that this represents the pinnacle of CD playback. Jerry, a fellow audiogoner was gracious enough to allow me to audition his broken-in Meitner CDSD / DCC2. In my system, the boxes were switched with mine, so they each had the same cables, power conditioning, power cords, and stand. Both were run directly into the amp without a preamp. My CD playback system includes the Wadia 27ix / 270se with the latest software and full modifications from Great Northern Sound. Also included are Elrod Statement power cords, a Hydra conditioner, and a Mana rack.
In short, I think that these are both excellent units. They are also very different in what they do. In my system, it was easy to distinguish between the two within several minutes. It probably comes down to personal preference in deciding which is best here. I’ll just simply say that I’m keeping the Wadia because I think it is a perfect match for my musical preferences, my system, and what I appreciate in music.
What I love about the Wadia is its ability to convey an (absolutely) astonishing amount of detail without being harsh or fatiguing. Not only is the melody and rhythm imaged with speed and coherence, but you can actually appreciate the musicians technique, the weight and color of the instrument(s), and the ambience of the recording venue. It simply presents a convincing image of a live event. The emotional quality is all there. You can understand what separates a great and (justly) famous professional musician from a pretty good one. Everything is properly proportioned, the soundstage is appropriate and believable, everything is audible, and the background is silent. From complex orchestral pieces and opera, to vocals, to solo instruments, I do not believe there are any weak spots. Again, it simply convinces and fools the mind into believing that you are sitting in front of the performance. I have frequented the concert halls, and I’d hate to say it but sometimes the recording is better.
I think that just about anybody could probably be happy with either of these 2 systems. Of course, curiosity makes us wonder if the grass is greener. I am just very content with where I am right now. I'd invite Jerry to make some comments when he gets a chance.
Rob
In short, I think that these are both excellent units. They are also very different in what they do. In my system, it was easy to distinguish between the two within several minutes. It probably comes down to personal preference in deciding which is best here. I’ll just simply say that I’m keeping the Wadia because I think it is a perfect match for my musical preferences, my system, and what I appreciate in music.
What I love about the Wadia is its ability to convey an (absolutely) astonishing amount of detail without being harsh or fatiguing. Not only is the melody and rhythm imaged with speed and coherence, but you can actually appreciate the musicians technique, the weight and color of the instrument(s), and the ambience of the recording venue. It simply presents a convincing image of a live event. The emotional quality is all there. You can understand what separates a great and (justly) famous professional musician from a pretty good one. Everything is properly proportioned, the soundstage is appropriate and believable, everything is audible, and the background is silent. From complex orchestral pieces and opera, to vocals, to solo instruments, I do not believe there are any weak spots. Again, it simply convinces and fools the mind into believing that you are sitting in front of the performance. I have frequented the concert halls, and I’d hate to say it but sometimes the recording is better.
I think that just about anybody could probably be happy with either of these 2 systems. Of course, curiosity makes us wonder if the grass is greener. I am just very content with where I am right now. I'd invite Jerry to make some comments when he gets a chance.
Rob
103 responses Add your response
Steve, Bias or not, the Wadia is not what I would call realistic sounding musically. I have heard many and had two of the 861's with the Statement mods come in on trade. One was the SE and the other was the Standard. While you greatly improve the player, it is still lacking the naturalness, or "analog like" nature that I look for. It is still digital sounding. I have yet to hear of a person going from the EMM Labs to a GNSC Statement Wadia. I do not want this to escalate to a battle between you and me. I acknowledge the improvement in resolution and clarity from your mods, but it still is not close to my reference... real music. Again, there are many other digital peices that I do not sell, that I would recommend over the modified Wadia. |
Jonathan, Give me a break and give a little credit for intelligence to all of us here...take your advertising campaign someplace else. Let the end-users speak...you don't need to decide who your competition gets to be....they decide. Real music...guess you have a lock on how to get there..I might as well give up. I respect Ed Meitner tremendously, just not sure about his choice in associates for selling it.... |
Very interesting thread, overall the initial contribution of FMPND. The initial post was "Comparing Wadia vs. Meitner" and fmpnd and others compared them and gave us an exhaustive and very helpful information. All that one expect when start a new thread. This is the kind of people that gives value to this place. Fmpnd please, don't stop participating, your opinnions are always very helpful. |
GNSC & Jtinn, P-L-E-A-S-E back-off, both of you! If one of you still feels that he should have the last word, P-L-E-A-S-E refrain & let the gentleman inside you take over. There has been a LOT of un-necessary mudslingling in this thread & we reeally do NOT need a manuf & principal dealer getting into a pissing contest. I hope that I'm not too late..... |
GNSC, Steve join the club as I've been mistreated, I've been abused, I've been struck downhearted baby, I've been confused! Wadia say Steve, think that the Meitner digital flavor of the month, is going to slow things down at GNSC upon returning from vacation? Rtl- Rob, Thanx for re-inviting me to this tread! However I now feel like a Red Headed Step Child with Dumbo like ears for having a non-positive 4 week Shrilling in the Highs redbook experience of the DCC2/SACD 1000 combo. With Wadia I was hearing every detail of Igor Stravinsky, not sonically fatigued, & short changed by having to settle for Stravinsy! I will still e-mail you my detailed thoughts between Meitner -vs- Wadia, & will not post here as it's just not worthy! I was however more bias about the Phillips as a transport, & it may have been the Weakest Link? If it was ice cream it would have been "Rocky Road", as it did not add the "Everything But The Kitchen Sink" kind of ingredients to this combo! Maybe the CDSD has changed things somewhat? Maybe in an all tubed warm, non-revealing, non-high resolution system the combo mates well for sonic utophia? Maybe I just needed more Q-Tips? Whatever it was I'm not ready to use my Wadia for a boat anchor just yet! I am now retreating back to the Golden Ear Lepercy Colony, shunned for simply having an opinion! P.S. Next to a cure for Lepercy, I have contacted the Make A Wish Foundation for the term "analog like" to stop being used for Digital. Even SACD is not "analog like", it's just a hi-rez extension of Digital. A up/over/downunder sampling Cdp, or Dac may offer non-digititus sound qualities for redbook yet is still not the answer towards "analog like". However if your ultimate continual digital front-end upgrade quest is for true "analog like" sound then STOP & buy a TURNTABLE! |
I agree with audio99, all the wonderful words aren't going to make the meitner as good as analog. I believe there are people who have spent a tremendous amount of money thinking they could have the best of the best with Meitner. When in the back of their minds (or a troll under their bridge, if you will) saying you could have an incredible sounding TT and CD player as backup, instead you have all digital and you are still out the money. This gentleman who started this thread says that to his ears the Wadia sounds better. Why is he getting attacked by the Meitner crowd? I think there is purchase justification going on. Rob |
The Meitner crowd will fall to side lines soon just as the old Perpetual Technologies crowd did. Divorcing the Meitner to capture the next Precious Holy Grail Dac to Marry to their systems. Then we will have to listen to the whole ordeal all over again as they parade around their next New Trophy Wives! It seems that among this crowd / cult of followers, that gone are the ol'e days when a man purchased a Corvette for Bragging Rights when his libido went south? |
No envy, No jealousy, No strife, Not attacks, Nor slams! These are just observations from other Meitner Threads, which read as if there was a type of audio God-like complex which comes across. What happened to just building a system for personal musical enjoyment? If you honestly like it's sound, then be proud & enjoy! Just stop trying to brain wash everyone else by screaming "Mine Is Better Than Yours"! Have a great Labor Day holiday weekend, & enjoy the music! |
Some of you have forgoten that it's exciting to discover a new component, of any kind, which improves on what you are presently using. If you have the inclination to and the funds for purchase of said component, you probably will move forward and complete the purchase. Is it such a crime to share your new and improved equipment, personal appraisals and maybe a little honest excitement with the avid audience here on Audiogon??? |
The content of this thread has become sadly laughable. On one side there are people posting their subjective opinions, debating which is better (a good thing), a few of them beating their chests for whatever reasons, some with vested interests. And on the other side you have a couple of industry professionals in a pissing match, fomented by a "I don't want this turn into a battle between us" remark which was accompanied by scurrilous comments. Let's stick to the facts, let's stop the browbeating and sideways remarks, and let people decide for themselves and support those who conduct themselves professionally and don't feel the urge to badmouth the competition. |
I am full of of envy, jelousy, and strife because I haven't run out and bought a meinter, oh when will I have peace again... LOL We've made our point. I'm ready to move on until the next thread. If it's hype and not about the personal enjoyment and taste in music, I will chime in just to keep the enthusiasm in check. I've seen the hype machine before and it fades... Rob |
Steve (GNSC): There was no intention in the other thread to be a "sideways comment". I merely stated the if someone likes the sound of the Wadia, they would like the GNSC mod. Why would that be taken for more than the complement that was made. I will go on record to clarify that statement. If someone likes the sound of the Wadia player, the mod that Steve Hunley does greatly improves upon the Wadia sound. Nonetheless, it is still a Wadia. If you want to attempt to read into something that is not there, go ahead. Essentialaudio: STFU! How is that? |
Audiobugged & Bombaywalla: I appreciate what both of you are saying and I agree that this is unproductive. I answered the thread as I felt with a proper and honest answer. If Steve Hunley did not like my opinion, so be it. He is attempting to discredit me and that might be what he feels he needs to do. My feeling on the Wadia has absolutely nothing to do with the work GNSC does. I find it to be mechanical sounding and edgy. For some systems, that might be what is needed. It is always about synergy. |
Jtinn, Wadia vs. Meitner, it is all about Synergy! That was a good point, & a grand way to maybe finally end this thread? But since I may have the last word??? Fmpnd, you should change to thongs, as for a man of your characther it seems too easy for you to get your panties all twisted, & wedged! Gosh now wasn't that Fun? Oh, I am Sooooo Bad? Anyhow off to the next thread!!! |
Family feuds, Audiobugged? Even worse! My poor great-great-great uncle Leo was victim to the tug-o-war between the Great Powers. The Pig War It's been a fun thread, in spite of some remarks that appear to have been posted by a snooty 12 year old that got a hold of daddy's PC. Of course, this eliminates my own post because I own by PC. So there. bunch of punctuation that when tilted 90 degrees simulates a tongue sticking out, plus a raspberry KP |
Audiobugged...robm321.... I doubt you both will ever post anything useful and I must say when I see your monikers I will not bother. The posts you make are senseless, and only waste the time of those that are here trying to become more informed. Now... it is all about the music. If someone likes the Wadia thats wonderful...if another likes the Meitner super... and if others like something else great. We are all here to share info and what not. It is not about the flavour of the the month. Geez, if I liked what I heard from the Wadia I would have purchased it and stated what I thought too. The Wadia's are wonderful but for me I found the Meitner more to my liking. |
I heard a head to head comparison between the Meitner DAC 6 combo and an Audio Aero. The AA sounded much more musical than the Meitner. The AA had a much deeper, wider, layered and hologrphic soundstage. No one expected that outcome. But, we all heard it and my good friend who owned the Meitner sold it. I don't own either player. I own Steve Huntley's work. He is beyond reproach as a man and a designer. No one who has worked directly with him has ever said an unkind word on either subject. |
Hello Gents, Hope you don't mind a Limey adding a little spice to the Proceedings. Having heard the Meitner combo on 3 seperate occations, in 3 pretty fair systems (One of them possibly Macallan 25's!!!) And owning one or two Wadia pieces myself, I feel that both pieces of digital reproductive hardware, do a rather special job of managing to communicate that 'magic of the preformance' to the individual. Each in their own way, noneless valid, and purely down to presonal preference. I find the wadia's give more of a feeling of 'Being there & solidity' where as the Metiner expansive presenation & detailed openiness gave an impressive mix. Though we did find the use of an AES cable between the Philips & the DCC2 to give a more natural presenation that just the AT&T's (Surprising but true) Both sets of beasts need quality gear surrounding them to extract the most from there presonalities. If you liked the Elrod Sig, then try the UKhan Statement II, nice dynamics/speed, detail and weight, with rather good mid band projection Being a musician (Drummer, is that some one who hangs around with musicians???) I personally find the Wadia, more akin to my musical preference and ability to convey my style of rightness to the music being sampled, this however doesn't make the Meitner any less of a digital warrior, just merely another slant in the land of Binary. You pays your money & takes your choice. |
Alfatone69- That is really weird your experience using an AES cable instead of the fiber optic cables, not only are you not able to listen to SACD but your not able to upsample to DSD. You may want to have your unit(s) checked to see if they are working properly, from my experience the decoding to DSD is 90% of the "magic". |
Tireguy, Might have been a problem if we listening to sacd, I grant you, however redbook was the order of the day. pretty sure they were glass optic cables too. Have you listened to the DCS combo upsampling redbook to DSD and compared to the full sacd section? Thoughts on this please, if you have done this, did you compare the same same disc (Dual layer) or did you use a seperate red book disc of the same recording? |
I too have heard the emm labs dac compared to dcs and Wadia combo. I think the emmlabs equipment is being hyped on audiogon by some interested parties. I've been looking up power cords and have seen paragraphs on the Emm labs stuff. There are at least five companies that make similarly priced equipment and I would love to see the emm labs fanatics pick their equipment out of the bunch. It does sound great...but to say it blows away digital equipment in the same price range is silly. |
Well, after owning/listening to the Wadia 861b SE with GNSC Statement Mods for about 1 year, and recently acquiring an EMM Labs DCC2/CDSD, it is (as much as I hate to say it) no contest in favor of the EMM Labs. My previous setup was the Wadia/ Aesthetix Calypso/ Sony XA-9000ES and I bought into the EMM Labs "hype" and replaced the aforementioned pieces with the DCC2/CDSD. I initially used the DCC2 with a very cheap Toshiba DVD player as the transport and thought the Wadia smoked it. However, once the CDSD was added, EVERYTHING changed and I was blown away by the sound. The fiber optic connections between the two units is a must. The Wadia is truly an excellent unit, and only after listening to the EMM Labs did its shortcomings become very apparent. I can only say that my opinions of the two units are based upon my own impressions with my gear/room and music and I'm not going to make a "definitive" statement on which is better. I can only say the difference between the two units in my system was painfully obvious. Give both a listen IN YOUR OWN SYSTEM and decide for yourself. Have fun! Rest of system: Vandersteen 5A McCormack DNA-500 Stereovox BAL-600/LSP-600 cables BPT 3.5 Signature Plus Critical Mass Systems Platforms Frank |
Islandear, I have very eclectic tastes in music. Depending on my mood, I will listen from anything ranging from large scale classical to chamber music, to hard driving 70's horn rock and funk bands (Tower of Power is my all time favorite but I also like BS&T and Cold Blood type stuff)), to folk music (favorite is Michael Tomlinson, but also enjoy Bebo Norman, Joni Mitchell, Bruce Cockburn etc), to straight ahead jazz (both instrumental and vocal - I was formerly a professional trumpet player) to classic rock like the Doobie Brothers to good old Motown. Don't listen to too much rap or country and virtually no heavy metal or head banging music. I also like odd stuff like Eddie From Ohio (Virgina sould music), Keller Williams and String Cheese Incident and Trey Anastasio. I also like soundtacks and big band. My room is 14' x 18' X 8' and heavily treated so I can pressurize it pretty well with the Kharmas. If you have looked at any of the pics of my system, don't be confused by one picture which makes it look like what could be my listening chair about 2 feet from my speakers. That was just an Ottoman that got in the way when my wife took the picture. Cheers! |
Could I interject something here? The relative cost? How much is the Wadia we are talking about and how much is the EMM labs...total. The Wadia doesn't need a pre- amp and Meitner learned that and incorporated it into his latest piece. The analog improvement that come from one less component(with two to four gain stages) has always meant more to me than the digital wars. I had a Pass dac a few years back that had no upsampling...just a balanced dac with a volume control and an excellent output stage and volume control. Admittedly I had a cec tl-1 with it, but to my ears it sounded better than the EMM labs Dac 6 with the Phillips 1000 and a BAT VK 51 preamp on cd. The sacd was great of course, but I think cd playback is the key to happiness with the lack of sacd titles. Back to the Wadia...it does sound different. I heard a musician tellme it sounds more like a studio monitor. The Audio Aero, Mephisto etc. sound good and different. The AA for example sounds smooth and analog like, but the Wadias have always moved me more like a concert would. More balls. Lots of good machines out there. I think some of us need to spend more time hearing equipment (supporting dealers) and less talking about it. (me included). For example I can't believe how many people I've heard say SACD is boring. I think that is because you have been listening to cd for so long that you need that leading edge on the sound to recognize it as good. SACD sounds more like a record or live music to my ears. But I bet I could find 50 comments on this site that say sacd sounds flat. |
Alfatone..u got it wrong. As Tireguy points out the CDSD upconverts PCM into DSD: if you have the optical link then the DSD signal directly goes to the DCC2. Essentially converting redbook into SACD (though obviously no way good as SACD). As such, anyone who is trying Meitner gear without using the optical link is missing its critical feature & technology. A lot of universal players out there do the exact opposite: they convert SACD data into PCM before conversion into analogue, which is quite non sensical if u ask me. |
have been debating whether I should post this or not for awhile now I probably shouldn't have a feeling it's going to offend some people definitely. But here we go hang on. I thanks to Frankg for bringing his Meitner stuff over we finally directly a/b compared the GNSC modified Wadia 861 se statement with speed off light modifications to the SACD DSD output of the Meitner DCC 2 converter/preamp feed by a Alex Peychev modified Meitner/Phillips 1000 transport both were fed through the dcc2 preamp so switching between units only took a few seconds to accomplish. well the difference was maybe 1 extremely small hair favoring the Meitner SACD performance over the Wadia's Redbook performance,mostly the difference was in top end clarity and delicacy but was very subtle difference and this was with the Wadia playing the Redbook layer of the same hybrid disks the Police and Diana Krall mostly. Now the difference between Redbook was so extremely slight it was barely audible ive heard bigger differences switching polarity on an AC plug orientation actually slightly preferred the Wadia but the difference was so close it really didn't matter. Also thought the Meitner preamp slightly degraded the Wadia sound to me. Really thought the Meitner was vastly superior guess it's really not all that it's actually cracked up to be. Justin Ingram |
Mejames: are u saying u heard very little diff btwn Meitner gear playing the SACD layer of a hybird disc vs Wadia playing the PCM layer? Really? Hard to believe. I haven't listened to the Wadia w/ the modifications but did so w/ the reg 861: no contest in favor Meitner for me at least. It was more transparent, more back to end depth, far greater decay, etc. Hmmm. Is it the modifications or is it the system compatibility? Have no idea. Strange. The diff btwn redbook CD performance should be smaller, I agree. |
No offense taken here. I've owned both in my system long term and have no problems hearing which one is much better. For the record, I'm using the CDSD and my 861SE GNSC did not have the Speed of Light mod. Read my disclaimer above. It is silly to believe that because Audiogon member "X" (including me!) says he preferred one product over another that people should get offended or invalidates what they are hearing in their own system. If we all owned the same gear it would be pretty boring. |
hello Tim note Alex Peychev modifier Meitner/Phillips 1000 transport which Frankg says was a nice size sonic upgrade over the stock Meitner/Philips 1000 transport so it may possibly equal the CDSD performance? Henryhk yes very little difference between the Meitner SACD vs. Wadia PCM performance. Yes I would definitely agree the stock 861 would definitely lose vs. Meitner Redbook and definitely SACD performance. The se transport is a good size upgrade and the GNSC statement upgrade is definitely very significant it sounds like a completely different player after modification. |
Having lived with the Meitner CDSA for about a month, and my modified Wadia 270SE/27ix for years, I thought I'd run a search on this forum for comparative information between the two. (Actually, I owe my good friend Steve credit for this lead) My system comprises ARC Ref3/ARC REf 300 MkII and Pipedreams (Model 18 Hemisphere) with all Nordost cabling. I run the subwoofers with Bryston 7B monoblocks. Basically, I am in full agreement with Rob (Rtn1). The Meitner excels in the mid range and high frequencies (it "brings back the air" as per Harry Pearson) but there is no question the Wadia is superior in the bass. The Meitner also is surprisingly a bit on the bright side in comparison to either the Wadia or LP (Goldmund Studio/T3F/Benz Ref II/ASR phono stage). At this point, I intend to keep both, mostly because I can finally play SACD (although this now appears like antiquated technology.) To be honest, if I was looking for the ideal CD playback unit, neither of these would probably be it. For better or worse, are entering the era where one almost has to be a bit nuts to buy anything with a drawer anymore since computer storage/music servers are the way of the future. Now that you can get a iPod that has both remote and a proprietary digital output (MSB iLink), the days of the giant CD player are short-lived indeed. |
Ugamotz (aka Marty) uses Nordost Valhalla AC power cords on most of the system components. The exception is the Wadia units which have Nordost Eldorado AC cords. The system front end goes through an MIT Z Center, which I've always found advantageous although I have not compared it extensively to everything out there. (The back end- Bryston 7B's for the subs and ARC Ref 300 MkII for the towers- go directly into the wall- I NEVER use AC conditioners for amps- I have found them all to be disappointing as Jeff Rowland taught me years ago). I use the 2 isolated digital circuits of the Z center for two Wadia 27/270 pieces and a non-isolated output for the Meitner. I've tried flipping things around but could not put both the CDSA and the 27ix on the isolated digital circuits because they blew the Z center fuse! I just ordered a Kimber Palladium 10 AC cord (probably overkill) for the Meitner as this seems to be EMM's preferred AC Power cord provider. I will keep you posted. Marty |