I have the Wilson WP 7s and the Watchdog 2. The Watchdog is a perfect match to the WP7. It increases the size of the soundstage and increases the low end. The blend with the WP7 is seemless;it does not muddy up the midrange. The price is $11750.00
Go for the Watchdog!
I use my Watchdog w. my Maxx II & before witht the WP7. I turn it off from time to time to check if I really need it. It really adds to the foundation of the music. The Watchdog comes up a lot on Audiogon. I run the crossover very low at about 30 HZ. I would almost recommend 2 subs if you can swing it. It needs to be a very fast subwoofer or it won't integrate. Also you need to cross it over very low to make it blend. I myself wonder if a pair of Velodynes or Revels will be better than a single Watchdog.
I too am running a WatchDog II with my 7's. I got mine on A-gon for $5000 in perfect cond!
I feel the integration with the Wilson sub is seemless. Like the poster above, you have to turn it off to make sure it's actually working!
Check out the Escalante Uinta. It is $5,500.00 and it is the finest subwoofer for the money on the market. The Uinta was designed by Therry Budge who was the head designer of both Wilson and Talon. The Uinta is incredibily fast and totally seemless. If you are in the NJ area I would welcome you in to hear it. The Uinta is flat to 16hz and it plays really loud.
I would also look at the new Revel Sub 30 which has a significant amount of adjustment technology built in. Also Theil SS subs are incredible and can be purchased with an active crossover that will match your speakers to the sub. Theil is a great sub to blend with other speakers.
I can tell you the Velodyne will not work terribly well. I worked at a client's trying to get that sub to integrate to WP 7s and could not. The issue was the crossover's lowest point was 40 Hz. The WP-7 were solid down below 30 Hz. I really needed to set the crossover to roll in at something like 28 Hz and it was not available on the Velodyne.
Dave Wilson recently spoke at our local Wilson dealer. A question was asked if two Watchdogs are better than one. He stated that 1 is usually best. If two are being used, run them in mono and next to each other. I found this very interesting as most experts suggest stereo subs.
Rives, the xover upper limit of the Velodyne DD-series can be set in 1 degree increments anywhere from 15Hz to 199Hz. I've set mine at 30Hz for use with Merlin VSM-MXs, and at 35hz for use with Wilson W3P2s. It works fine with either set-up.
In response to Rives, "...the Velodyne will not work terribly well. I worked at a client's trying to get that sub to integrate to WP 7s and could not. The issue was the crossover's lowest point was 40 Hz."
This is not correct. I'm a dealer for Velodyne Digital Drive subs and have had one in my system for quite some time. The low-pass filter is adjustable from 15Hz to 199Hz and you can adjust the rolloff from 6dB/octave to 36dB/octave in 6dB increments. There is absolutely no reason why a Velodyne Digital Drive sub can't be integrated with a WP7.
Not having tried the other subs, it is hard to say what will be the best match. There are some fantastic subs available.
Best of luck,
We used the internal software and it would not go below 40 Hz. It was a DD-15. I read the manual and the owner also tried everything and 40 Hz was the lowest point. Had I been able to set it around 25 to 28 Hz it probably would have worked, but as it stood we had just too much energy around 35 Hz even at the lowest output settings. Is there some special way to allow the low pass to go lower, or did we have a brand new sub with outdated software from the dealer? I would very much like to know.
There isn't anything special that needs to be done to have the sub crossover below 40Hz. I'm not quite sure what was the problem in your situation. This isn't an issue that was addressed by a software update. It shouldn't have been a problem. That's strange.
I also have had no problem setting my DD15 to low-pass below 40hz
Perhaps I misunderstand, but you may be missing the point. I think that Rives is saying that regardless of the external or internal control setting, his test instruments showed that the Velodyne was not crossing over below 40 hz. This could have been a problem with that particular unit or a problem in general. The only way to know for sure is with appropriate test equipment. Given that Rives is not in the business of selling a particular brand of sub, their main interest must be in making the customer happy.
Well this is interesting information. The Wilson Sub in Europe is 14500 euro (18000 US$). So I guess I can not afford it. In stead I am willing to try the Velodyne. I guess if you adjust it manually it will be possible to set it at 30hz and if you use the software you will not be possible to do so. With this price of the Watch Dog you can imagine only a few are sold in Europe. Second hand impossible to find. In America the voltage is different so if I import one from America I need to pay VAT (19%), then shipment and modification to 230V. This is going to be as costly as bying one here. How much definition in the bass do you hear at 20-30hz. It is more feeling than hearing. The speed is slow at this frequency. So I guess any good sub that does not add upper harmanics (and then destroy the good quality of the WP7) will do here.
Just to clarify the crossover point read 40 Hz. It would not go below this. It would go above obviously, but could not get it to go below that. The measurements confirmed that this was approximately the crossover point. It seems we had a very strange sub, because I thought it should cross over lower as well as did the owner. Clearly there is something amiss here.
Anyone who can't get the DD xover set to their satisfaction should call Velodyne's tech support/customer service operation in Phoenix. As for test equipment, the integrated frequency analyzer dumped to a TV screen reveals exactly what's happening. Peter, all the setup functions are done digitally through an attached monitor-- not manually. Also the unit can be upgraded to current 2.0 software via a PC/internet interface. The user manual can be downloaded from Velodyne's web site.
We had the monitor, everything read out perfectly. We did not call Velodyne, as we believed that the unit was designed to only function to crossover from 40 Hz on up (I did not check the high point as it was not relevant to what we wered doing). Many subs do have a low pass limitation of 40 Hz, and I figured this was the case for Velodyne. The unit was new as of a few month ago from an authorized dealer who was supposed to be with us that day, but was unable to make it at the last minute. We did not use the internal analyzer as we have higher resolution equipment to take the measurements and used the manual set-up. Still it shouldn't be limited to 40 Hz in manual and allow something else in an automated mode.
This all very interesting and I have no doubt the velodyne is a great sub, but for integration purposes the Thiel is absolutely great. I would at least check them out before making the move. In one of my systems I added an SS2 to Revel M20s and the integration and soundstage improvement was so dramatic that even my wife commented on the quality.
Sorry, when I said "manual" set-up related to the Vel DD, I meant that there are no analog straps a la REL with which to override the digital display. One accesses the set-up utilities through display menus. If it is not possible to lower the xover point below an indicated 40Hz then you have a problem to discuss with Velodyne tech support.
It seems from reading many threads on Audiogon that outboard sub implementation is always frought with problems. Why not consider purchasing a pair of real full range speakers if you feel that last half octave is worthwhile? Rives has demonstrated that your speakers can reproduce below 30 hz. If you are in fact getting all of that now, there isn't much you are missing. Perhaps you need to consider whether or not your room is delivering all of what the WP-7 provides.
I have equalized bass from a full range speaker with audible signal below 20 hz. If I cut it off at 30 hz, I experience insignificant loss.
One further thought, I own a pair of Cabasse Saturn A21 subs which use a 1250 watt amp, provide for equalization and phase adjustment, etc. As this is a French company, it should be available in your market and is the best subwoofer that I have ever heard.
Macrojack, similar to the newer WPs, my Merlin VMXs are measureably flat +/-3db to 30Hz and produce usable bass down to 25Hz. Adding a sub below a low 30Hz crossover point adds significantly to impact of kick-drum, electric and acoustic bass, and expands the acoustic space for other instruments that unexpectedly reveal content well below 30Hz to a spectrum analyzer. It's also a nice dividend that at such a low crossover point, the transition from sub to mains can be smooth & unobstrusive, even moving from a hi-watt SS sub amp to a tube amp on top.
Since the human ear attenuates bass response as volume decreases, it's nice with a sub to be able to control volume & add a little boost as needed. Deep bass response of most rooms is tricky enough that being able to relocate the sub-bass woofer away from the main speakers can be an advantage. And all other things being equal, it's a lot cheaper to match a fine sub with fine limited low-frequency main speakers, than to acquire large-array full-range main speakers of comparable quality.
Finally, any additional tweaking required for a sub is a satisfyingly visceral exercise relative to wanking over power cords.
I'm interested in this as well as my WP7s are powered by 22WPC SETs. I originally considered switching to high current amplification but that would naturally compromise the SET magic.
How about the Kharma sub? Would this work well with the WP7s?
I'm using a Fathom F113 with my 7's. It seems to integrate seamlessly with them. I think the Fathom is a good match. Regards, Pat
I have owned a Snell DCS 24 and Revel Sub 30 for Wilson Sophia 2 speakers...going to the Watch Dog 2 is amazing improvement over the Revel Sub 30...much more natural sounding and better integrated with main speakers...
I tried the Velodyne, Revel, Mirage and the Wilson.
Bought the Wilson.
The Wilson Benesch is supposed to be really good too.
I have two Revel Sub 30s. Excellent subs and exceptional parametric EQ (3-band). I think the B-15a uses the same EQs.
Just a question, I live in Holland and I thinking of buying a pair of JL Audio F113. My taste in sound is: the high/mid section lots of detail en full of 3D, but most of all a light and natural sounding system.
For exaple: JMLab Mini Utopia or JMLab Micro Utopia Be Just smood and transparent, Wilson CubII enz. Oke
Now I am thinking of intergrading two F113, Personal I think, bass have to be super thigh, quick/fast, dry, dry, dry and dry......absolute not warm, lazy, like almost all of the subs out there.
Please: we don't have them over here, lots of rave reviews on the net. Can you give me a little feedback on, are these the subs I'm looking for??
anyway thank you very much for you're time and response
OK, so I just hooked up a Velodyne DD 12 to my stem with Watt Puppy 5.1's. I'm still experimenting with the settings and I'm having the same problem as Rives. I can't get the crossover frequency to go below 40 Hz. The manual says I should be able to go down to 15 but the GUI only lets me go down to 40 Hz. Am I missing something here? The Software is version 2.2.0
I never had a problem with this. Call Kurt at Velodyne tech support in Arizona at 928-858-4430.
I just talked to velodyne and they said that the software was changed and that now 40 Hz is the lowest crossover frequency.
That's not an acceptable answer from the manufacturer, particularly for a product in production as long as the DD series. It should be a simple matter for Velodyne to give you FTP access to V2.0 software. Alternatively you could use digital EQ to tamp it down. If neither of these approaches works, chuck it.
if people are not considering the JL Audio f113, then they are missing the boat completely.
Is there a better powered sub? People who have owned some of the above mentioned subs now own a f113, what does that tell you?
i have a pair of JL Audio f113 Fathom subwoofers arriving this coming week. my original intent was for the LFE channel of the multi-channel i have added to my 2-channel room (no video....just hi-rez multi-channel). i am now planning on trying to integrate these 2 subs into my 2-channel playback too.....even though my 2-channel speakers, the Evolution Acoustics MM3's, are said to extend to -3db at 10hz. my opinion is that placement for regular speakers; however low they might go; is rarely ideal for deep bass; and adding a mono sub for each channel may work.....we will see.
in any case; i have heard the f113.....and it really does set a new standard for subwoofer performance.....in terms of speed and effortlessness. it's also relatively inexpensive compared to other top subwoofer competition. it is very adjustable and comes with it's own room optimization program and microphone. it also provides for automatic set-up of a 2-sub arraingement.
very important to me is that the Fathom is a sealed box. i have come to find out that ported subs or even ported speakers simply miss an important level of bass articulation.
if you have not looked into the Fathom; or better yet find a local dealer and go listen.....it would be a mistake.