Im with you Mghcanuck, how come there are not more posts on here? It sometimes seems as long as it isnt on our door-step we dont as a nation get outraged, sure we all hate to see these events un-fold, and hate those who hate for no reason (or twisted reasons) but all the same I wonder why no others have started this type thread or even added to this one?
I totally agree with your first sentence,war is hell,especially against suicide bombers and guerillas and people ignorant of common sense regarding our few years we have to live,Bob
I can sadly say that I've now lived through two terrorist attacks. I was in NY for 9/11, which was and remains a life-changing experience. I'm currently finishing up a dissertation in London, and one bomb went off at the station near my house, and a second one ripped open a bus right near my university. The scary thing is, that a lot of those interviewed on the TV recommended what Ashcroft did after 9/11: resume your normal lives, go shopping, etc.; we can't show the terrorists they've affected us. I'm not trying to open a huge political issue here (but I obviously will be), but maybe we should re-evalue some of what we do. I mean, fumbles like Iraq only prompt further bloodshed. It's good to see we're winning the war on terror, eh George.
What's funny is that I've now been through more combat than he has, and he's leading our army.
An attack like this on anyone is an attack on everyone. We should all be outraged, and I expect most are.
Our thoughts and prayers go out to our British friends. I agree with Wstritt as this is an attack on all of us.
My thoughts and prayers are with our English friends, they are but one nation on the infamous shortlist (Canada is on the list too). My view is these attacks are no less serious than the 9/11 tradgedy; many innocent died and even more seriously injured. When 9/11 took place this board was flooded with sentiments. C'mon folks NIMB doesn't cut it.
As for politicians and GWB in particluar, like most things they have to be REALLY bad before they get better i.e. replaced by competent people. I pray there are no more terror attacks anywhere in the world, the senseless loss of life isn't buying the terrorists any sympathy or support.
I was wondering how long it would take for an attack on ol W to pop up on this thread. Not long.
What does Iraq have to do with this?
Before you point out what you think is the obvious, consider this:
I'm sure many folks firmly believe that Iraq is the greatest Jihad training camp of all time, provided by us to the Islamists. But:
September 11, 2001, we weren't in Iraq. That attack was YEARS in the making- long before Bush entered office. That attack was about:
1. Bin Laden was very pissed at the Saudis for turning down his offer to drive the Iraqis from Kuwait instead of bringing in American Infidels.
2. Consequently, The US Infidels gained a presence in Saudi Arabia.
3. Bin Laden holds the US in the highest contempt, and will use any excuse and methodology to destroy us.
How would you win the war on terror Mimberman? Bin Laden recently stated that his goal is the re-establishment of the Caliphate. Kind of a long term goal that pretty much screams "fuck you" at the entire Western world wouldn't you say?
Why don't we grieve for our friends in the UK and focus on the guys attacking the west?
I know this might sound odd, but I think if all of us guys spent more time looking at more then just pretty gals when we are out, we may just pick up on an important clue and save alot of people from going thru a horrible event.
I am not sure how many know this but James Woods (the actor) was on a plane in July of 2001 and saw some Arab men who really spooked him, he reported the event and a few days after 9/11 the FBI showed up at his house because a file was opened on what he reported....he was able to identify I think 3 of the 9/11 Hijackers before the faces were released for all to see, now maybe my memory is off on the date or number of highjackers he identified, but this story was told in his own words..and it was pretty chilling, he saw something wrong before anyone had an idea of the hell 9/11 would put us through. My father just came out of WTC when plane first hit, when they left the office he was in near the WTC the first tower fell and he was caught in that huge cloud of destruction, nobody in my family could get a call into his cell phone....for six long hours nobody knew if he was ok (his office is now in New Jersey). I just hope we all still look at all the little things...it may make a big diffrence!
It's indeed an outrage. Our thoughts and prayers to those who were affected.
What in the hell does 9/11 have to do with Iraq? The answer: Nothing. People keep bringing them up in the same context as if they had something to do with each other and they don't. That is one of the ways that "ol W" and his buddy Dick duped so many Americans into accepting their rationale for illegally invading a sovereign country and murdering thousands of totally innocent civilians, including many women and children. If you want to get a little glimpse of the U.S. brand of terrorism then check out this man's story of watching his 4 children die before his eyes:
How would I win the war on terror, you ask? "The War On Terror" is a total misnomer. Terrorism is a method, not a thing or an object, or even a particular group of people. It is a marketing slogan used to sell you a product. Large scale military invasions don't work in this new world. That is old school and only makes it worse.
Start by doing WHATEVER is necessary to track down the men directly responsible for 9/11 and bringing them in to pay their bill. It has been over 1300 days since "ol W" declared that he will bring in Osama "dead or alive". Macho posturing has to be backed up with results at some point. The most sophisticated electronic and satellite surveillance at our disposal worth billions and he can't bring in this guy after almost 4 years. Something doesn't add up here.
There is no way to rationalize or forgive the despicable acts of terror that were committed in London, Spain, NYC, etc. But if you are going to solve any large scale problem (such as terrorism) then you can only do it by making sure that you keep looking at ALL of the facts and be totally honest about both sides of the story. Please, let's keep it real.
My thoughts and prayers go out to our good friends in London. Looking at the faces in the photos was sad and difficult. I'm sure that I and my coworkers had the same look when we exited the Pentagon after the plane ripped into our bay. Londoners and esp those closest to the bombings will have many tough days ahead, but I found that a trust in God, and supportive and caring Family and friends made each day better. There will be days ahead to deal with the dirtbags but today we are all Londoners...hurting but resolute.
Great points, Danlib1.
Daddy0 - Technology cannot necessarily find bin Ladden(sic) A good analogy would be our hobby - As hard as we try, we cannot use technology - no matter how much we spend to get the Perfect Musical performace, even though we can come close. We have come close several times to catching ben Dover(again,sic) - but he manages to give us the slip.
BUT - What would people say if we were NOT using every electronic/high tech system to find him???
Low-tech may be the answer - a method almost as old as time itself - it's the same stuff that may be covering your phono jacks - gold to the right person - but I doubt it...
And, yes I am also sick of the Bush Bashing. Hey - Florida 2000/Hanging Chads/etc. is Over - so get over it.
Hey I resemble that remark!
Thus far no one has bought up the aforementioned elections except the people who post in favor of bush.
I was rather questioning what he's done since in office, which is clearly not beneficial to anyone right now.
I notice a lot of bush supporters constantly try to turn the argument away from the nightmare that we've made in Iraq, and act like we're still arguing about elections that have been over some time ago. Criticize Bushes record on the environment and you get the same thing: stop whining about the election. Where's Osama: election. What are we doing to help israel: election.
People can yammer on all they want about GW inheriting certain international difficulties from Clinton (and more accurately his father's) tenure, but what he's doing now paves the way for terrorism for the many presidents after him..
Cowardly acts in London,done by people that are absolute excuses for human beings.Pathetic.
Don't forget that Clinton also believed that Saddam had WMD-and said so- because the same guys who told Bush Iraq had WMD previously convinced Clinton as well.
Bush and Cheney made all that info up to launch the Iraq war? Well, maybe in some Oliver Stone movie.
Illegal invasion? Every invasion is "illegal". We did'nt stop and fill out an application before rolling into Germany 60 years ago. Come to think of it, they did'nt check with the Poles in '39 either- but I digress.
Great technology only does so much. Finding Bin Laden won't come down to satellite photos- it'll come down to human intelligence or dumb luck. And we have killed or captured some guys DIRECTLY responsible for 9/11- remember KSM? It was his plot!
We've murdered thousand of innocent civilians in Iraq? I would not agree without eveidence that the number is thousands of innocent civilians. But war does suck- remember the British fire bombing Dresden? The US incediary raids on Tokyo? THEN we killed HUNDREDS of Thousands of innocent civilians. War is always terrible.
As far as looking at both sides of the story and understanding facts, read what I said above. Those are the reasons Bin Laden attacked the US- all facts.
Was Iraq involved in 9/11? I don't think so by any means.
Never said so either. But since we're in Iraq- and they're coming to fight, why not, to paraphase the Koran,"kill the enemy where you find him"?
You may not call that the "war on terror", but it's the only way we will win this war.
My prayers go to those in London.
On this day, we are all Londoners. We all share in the agony, pain, and horror.
Today we mourn and honor those who have fallen. Today we extend our hand to those who need it, picking them up, dusting them off, ensuring they are comfortable.
Tomorrow, we keep them in our thoughts and in our hearts as we return to our lives of freedom and happiness, unbowed by what was designed to do just the opposite. The terrorists do not weaken us, but strengthen us, forging together our resolve and uniting us as never before.
Daddy0 - Well said.
Danlib1 - If you haven't at least accepted the FACT that the justification for the illegal occupation of Iraq WAS fabricated by King George, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Kristol, and Rumsfeld, then there is no point in anyone debating with you. Your head is clearly stuck somewhere.
Mimberman - As you said, the Bush supporters only defense is to deflect any valid criticisms of this administration into another election argument. In the meantime, our country suffers.
My thoughts and prayers are with the people of London.
God bless and protect our troops. God help our government and all those who elected this simple minded corporate puppet.
The war in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. The threat that Iraq may have WMD, was bogus. In 1990 we easily entered Iraq, and destroyed their infrastructure and army within weeks. If they had WMD they would have used it. Then for the next ten years with UN inspections and sanctions, Iraq was in far less of a position to develop WMD, then prior to the first Iraq war. They didn't even have the capacity to fire an effective scud missle into Israel (their neighbor), let alone threaten the US.
Somehow, the republicans who bashed Clinton from day one (and continue to do so), can't handle any criticism of GWB. They impeached a president for lying about a consentual affair. But leave alone a president whose lies have caused thousands of innocent peole to die.
The world is not a safer place due to GWB's foreign policies. The earth is not a healthier planet due to GWB environmental policies. And a woman's right to choose is now on the chopping block, as it's payback time to the religious right for electing GWB.
But all is not gloom and doom. Halburton (Chaney's company) and the oil industry have much to gain from our occupation and puppet adminstration in Iraq.
The Iraqi government was elected- it's not a puppet.
Clinton was not impeached for a consensual affair- Clinton was impeached for perjury.
I agree that the war in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11.
Bill Clinton, Sandy Berger, Richard Clark- all believed Sadamm was hiding something, probably some form of WMD. Bush had no need to make the crap up- the CIA had passed on bad intel to every President since 1992.
As far as environmental issues, I feel we need a "Manhattan Project" type effort to free us from dependency on fossil fuels.
A woman's right to choose? I'm not anti-abortion, but the constitution grants no such right. The high court issued the right. If Roe v. Wade were overturned tomorrow, it would not negate abortion rights the way you may think. The issue would be kicked back to the states for state-by-state determination.
I'm not a Bush defender. I think he's actually doing a lousy job in many respects. I am however tired of the baseless rhetoric tossed about as fact by people today.
Actually, God help the simple minded puppets who constantly cry about corporate corruption.
Haliburton, oh dear, I havent laughed so hard in a while.
Could someone toss in an ENRON for good measure?
OK then, forget about the elections - How about just stopping the bashing of the President, period??? I didn't agree with Bush's decision to invade Iraq (I want Osmama Ben Dover in jail -or dead- rather than Saddam). But I think when we are at War - like it or not - Support you Commander-in-chief.
I'm gonna move on from the Bush debate - again, my condolences to our British friends.
Quit cryin!...if your not RIGHT your wrong, read into that whatever you want.
As soon as you have access to all the information the president does, I'll value your opinion. He was elected, history will judge him. How innapropriate for you to bring up your political frustrations on a post about a sad day for the people in London. We know the arguments for and against Bush, we've heard them over and over - give it a rest.
I hate to say it buy I'm relatively apolitical, but I do agree with Rob and this is one reason for my apoliticality. We(commoners) probably have at best about 10% of the info that Bush/Clinton, ie, top world leaders, have available to them. It would be like reading every tenth page of a novel and trying to talk intelligently about it. I think most of us do not have a clue about the complexity of the world's issues. I mean if you're counting on MSNBC, Fox, CNN as your sources, you may as well forget it. And what other sources do we have? Really?
My wife is originally from Leicester, England. In the weeks following 9/11, several men there were arrested for suspect terrorist activities.They all lived within metres of her grandmothers house.Whats the point?These few mentally mis-aligned "people" caused havoc to minorities-the outlash was severe and many innocent people were hurt, people being attacked and beaten by groups of thugs because their skin color was the same as the terrorists (to all who are unfamiliar with British society, it's not all Mary Poppins.)Because of all this crap, the National Front (their 'white supremist' political party) is now calling for a general war against immigrants and where in past they had no real weight, people are scared and turning to these freaks for a sense of safety.They are growing in political strength.Our news papers have headlines stating that Muslim people there are being told to lead a normal life, while her family tells us that the opposite is true.People are retaliating against them severely.They are being told to 'keep to themselves' until this thins out.If you are Muslim and you walk into the wrong pub, good chance of being glassed (beer bottle to the head, typical pub fare...) So, condolances, yes, but sympathy also to innocent people, good people who will undoubtedly be hurt because of psychopathic terrorists.
I'm a little sorry to have unintentionally kicked the dust up, but remain convinced that our thoughts should be with Londoners and all other "free people" who may be subject to the atrocities of an exceedingly small minority of individuals who are committed to murder and mayhem to achieve their ends. I was simply trying to follow the pattern of past threads following 9/11 and Madrid in order to express some compassion for the victims in London.
Perhaps a debate of the merits of the so-called "War on Terrorism" and associated issues would be more appropriate in a separate thread.
No. It is a good thread, and I'm glad someone brought it up.
Please no "War on Terrorism" threads. It will just cause a war on Audiogon, and frankly, it's the wrong venue for that sort of thing.
Thanks and good point about no WoT threads.
Small world ....I'm from South Africa.My sister lives in New Zealand.Her daughter works in London.She takes several tube trains and a few buses to get to her place of work.She was lucky as she missed the Liverpool station bomb by 10 mins and one of the busses she takes is the Nr.30....this is the bus that was bombed.Very lucky not to be harmed.
Again,our thought go out to the families of the ones killed and injured.
One of my customers is from England origionally. Their daughter had a friend who was one of those killed in the subway.