You should go for Avalon Eidolon or Avalon Eidolon Diamond.
These speakers are great match with CAT JL1.
These speakers are great match with CAT JL1.
haipo or rhyno, have listened to the Von Schweikerts if not
I would. For the money,the Von Schweikert speakers are a very good buy, though the Total Victory speakers will rock.
Eidolons are definitely not the best speaker for rock or post romantic classical(dynamic compression, and stored energy, plus very low sensitivity).Plus what is your room size and amplifier power?? Do not get me wrong, Avalon makes premier speakers but definitely not everyone's cup of tea. Plus they are over 20 grand. Also I would look at Vandersteen's Five for comparison sake. It is a shame about the wife factor, but the Maggie 20.1s are THE BEST
VALUE for the money, period. I just heard them recently, I lust after them, only the Sound Lab M1 or A1 or U1 are better.
having had the vr5 hse and the merlins and now having piega p10s i would,if your budget allows,spend the little extra and get the p10s. the other speakers,although very good,are not in the same class as the p10s,imo,and that of jonathan valins'.new vr5 hse are going to be around $8k-$9k and maybe more...i bought mine over 18 months ago..and the merlins are about the same. for about $1k more you can have a speaker that you will keep forever and only be bettered by a few at many times the price.email j. valin at TAS and ask him..he usually responds to emails.they do all music.you may want to see how well the cjs handle loads down to 4ohm but i think they would be okay..my tenors are a mate made in heaven. just a thought...dave smith 'calloway'
I own the Vonschweikert VR-7's. Have not found anything that betters them yet. Had a friend over and he heard my system and then purchased the VR-5 HSE due to room size.
The VR-5's are excellent and carry much of the sonic signiture of the 7's. They are easy to drive and provide a seamless integration from top to bottom.
Try to audition them in your room with your electronics if possible.
All, much appreciative of the responses. Our listening room is 14 x 16 x 8 with openings to other rooms on back and one side wall. Too small a room for VR-7s and Silverline Grandeur so say the actual respective manufacturers. Also the CATs put out a steady 100w into 4 or 8 ohms.
Calloway, do you run your P-10s with tubes? I had them on my list early-on but had a long discussion with someone that stated you get "more" speaker for your money buying "in-country" (US and Canada for me) as opposed to buying a speaker made overseas and shipped all that way over here.
Shubertmaniac, I lusted after MG 20.1s but they require a lot of "real estate" behind them, IMHO, to really sound good. Also, my listening impression was that they do not go low enough for my tastes - although set-up "right" the rest on up is "magical".
Haipo and Rhyno, I have listened to Avalon products for years at a local high-end shop and agree with Shubertmaniac that they are not for my type of primary music. The shop, every time I went in, was playing them with female vocalists music.
i personally wouldn't own anything from albert von upgrade. how many friggin models and upgrades can one guy have (btw: the hovland upgrade for $1k is an insult to anyone who knows how to build a crossover).
his speakers are ok. i don't like the way he does business, but that's whats important to me, not everyone.
other speakers for R&R, etc: reimers; used rockport syzygys (if you're blessed!); silverline sonata or lafolia. all are pretty tube friendly, and plenty of bass punch.
<<< how many friggin models and upgrades can one guy have >>>
I guess as many as he can handle, so what's your problem with the guy designing speakers bearing the Von Schweikert name, Eggleston and so forth, and then improving them. Since he's a gifted designer, why not? Can't stand NOT owning the latest model?
<<< btw: the hovland upgrade for $1k is an insult to anyone who knows how to build a crossover [...] i don't like the way he does business, but that's whats important to me, not everyone. >>>
It's my understanding that Albert makes the regular models to be the best at their price points. Then, for those who believe that brand name parts and silver wire sounds better, he makes the Hovland upgrade. For THOSE people the upgrade IS worth 1k. I fail to see where the insult is.
What I personally consider to be an insult is making a two way speaker, wrapping it in plastic (not wood, to save costs) and selling it for 8k. Then having verbally aggressive people such as yourself promoting it, again, aggressively over the internet as the best thing since sliced bread below the 40k price point despite its very obvious shortcomings (limited dynamics, limited bass, woofer reproducing both some bass and the critical midrange, thus being at a disadvantage when compared with the very best). That is, for me, an overpriced product and the way of having it marketed is, for me, hype, and that's exactly the business model I rejected when I voted last year with my pocket, buying the Von Schweikert VR-7 instead of what you keep pushing. And I found Albert's assistance with the whole process truly world class, so what's NOT to like about his business model?
Back to the original question: I second the Von Schweikert speakers recommendation for their exceptional sound from top to bottom, their broad compatibility with amps/preamps and top notch support from the manufacturer. Thanks for reading.
i have no loyalty to mfgs. only good products. the products i listed, particularly the rockports, the merlins and the avalons are amongst the best at their price point. if you want to buy more drivers for more money, go ahead--each of them will be of lower quality, as will the x-over, as will the sound. ever heard of quality over quantity? a 2-way for $8k will beat a 4-way for $8k most every time, except in select regards (thunderous bass being the primary one). go listen to some ML CLS2z or soundlabs (no x-over). that's one driver--and it sounds better. period. to get the quality of a merlin x-over in a 4-way, expect to spend $25k & up.
want bass? buy some used entecs and be done with it. full range speakers rarely can do full range properly.
i maintain what i said about albert von upgrade. the way he does business is just plain shameful. look at rockport: 4 models in its history. look at vandy: the 2c has been around forever. look at merlin: vsm for a long time (with slight upgrades, all at reasonable costs for the amount of work---no $1k expenditures for a friggin capacitor!). look at soundlab. look at silverline. my point being, none of these high-end mfgs feel the need to bombard the mkt with model after model and upgrade after upgrade. continuous models and upgrades, my friends, is the way to run a software company--not a loudspeaker company.
Whoa guys!!! Vandies 2C has been upgraded many,many times
since their introduction in the 70s. New drivers, crossover parts. etc. Sound Lab are electrostatic, there are no drivers per se, just a big capacitor. The Von Schweikerts
are very good speakers, I like what I heard and I am electrostatic kind of guy(Acoustat 2+2s). Ditto, the Coincident Total Eclipse and Total Victory,very good speakers.There are NO BEST speakers; has Audiogon not
taught you this????????
Von Schweikert uses the latest in speaker technology
The VR-7's use the revaltor tweeter.. One of the most expensive and best sounding around. Mids are Aerogel whiich are also among the best.
The Xover upgrade you talk about also involves silver wire..
As far as changing models... Whats wrong with improving an existing speaker system? His upgrades are cost effective and allows the buyer to take advantage of the new technologies. Why would anyone complain about that?
The VR5 and VR7 are his first speakers with VSA. He also supported ALL his other speakers from the old company.
Thats great customer support..
Seems you have an ax to grind with VSA.. nothing else you presented is worthwhile.
Rhyno, you make several good points that I agree with, it's your bias the thing I disagree with. To each his own most of the time, but in our little audiophile world I find that, based on my first hand experience, your bias against Mr. Von Upgrade is plainly wrong.
You say: <<< i have no loyalty to mfgs. only good products >>>. Neither do I, and that's a good point. Those who are true audiophiles are to be commended in our hobby, not the ones who give financial success and their brand name being a status symbol the utmost importance. But, for some reason, you refuse to admit that Von Schweikert falls right into this category, of the true audiophile who spends his time improving his speakers rather than marketing them.
You also say:<<< [...] none of these high-end mfgs feel the need to bombard the mkt with model after model and upgrade after upgrade. continuous models and upgrades, my friends, is the way to run a software company--not a loudspeaker company >>>. Unlike a software company, these upgraded speakers do NOT invalidate previous models, and they are all supported by VSA. Unless you want the latest, you can live quite happily with the previous model, so what's the matter ? When VSA will start making turntables a la Rockport, I would, however, expect fewer speaker models, but right now the guy does what he knows best, speakers.
You say: <<< a 2-way for $8k will beat a 4-way for $8k most every time >>>, yeah, unless the 2 way one is worth 4 k and is being sold for 8k.
You say: <<< to get the quality of a merlin x-over in a 4-way, expect to spend $25k & up >>>. Right, but how about making a speaker that could compete with speakers costing 25k and up, then selling it for 10k ? (VR-5)
You also say: <<< want bass? buy some used entecs and be done with it. full range speakers rarely can do full range properly. >>> True, but that invalidates the advantage of using a simple crossover in the first place, because you add the sub's crossover, don't you? A speaker made out of top quality parts as a full range in the first place, using a top notch design, is better than a 2-way with an added sub (plus its own crossover), don't you agree?
Rhyno, I generally enjoy your posts, and your dedication is to be commended. To bad that you fail to see or admit that Albert is one of us, meaning a true audiophile, a very gifted one on top of that, making some really, really good speakers.
Thanks for reading!
to integrate subs, use nothing more than a GOOD cap in series w/ your amps inputs, matched to your amps input impedance. this will give 2db per octave, and sound 100x better than a sub's internal (or a marchand / bryston external) x-over. this is the only way to integrate a sub properly (assuming you know your subs rolloff slope).
i've done this w/ merlin vsm-ms, and to my knowledge i am one of the only people to integrate subs w/ merlins and make a $10k speaker investment trump anything under $15k (soundlabs are at that point).
my point is if you have a limited budget, full range speakers are DAMN expensive to do right, or you could do what i described above.
btw: i never said albert made "bad" speakers. i've heard better (at the price, i liked celestion better for a 4-way). his are ok (better than krell, wilson, thiel). but i do what i will given his business practice: i vote w/ my $$ and buy elsewhere. frankly i wouldn't consider his products for that very reason; i am not alone, just alone on this post.
one more thing: no speaker is a lifetime purchase. if you own AVS, good luck w/ a resale value (hint: yes, everyone DOES want to own the latest thing).
Rhyno, thanks for the valuable tip on the crossovers. However, until I get a 2-way for a second system this doesn't apply to my already good primary system using full range speakers, but don't you think more 2-way spk users (Merlin's) deserve to get more out of their speakers, since you personally stated you're among the very few using this? You ought to post the tip on AA.
You said: <<< at the price, i liked celestion better for a 4-way >>>, great, we're different people sporting different tastes, and that makes the hobby great. I personally prefer the 2-way Sonus Faber to the 2-way Merlin at the same price, and so what? But please note that SF's top speaker is a full range one, and so will be Merlin's when they come out with their statement product.
You also said: <<< i vote w/ my $$ and buy elsewhere. frankly i wouldn't consider his products for that very reason >>>, and I did precisely this (voted w/ my $$$) by buying from Albert, because I didn't see his struggle to keep up with the latest spk technologies, but at the same time offering upgrades and support for older spk as being bad business practice. Making 4 speakers in a lifetime cannot possibly shake hands with keeping up with the technology. So I still fail to see where the problem is.
Low resale value for VSA speakers? Where? When? No VR-7 has ever been offered for sale on the 2nd hand market to my knowledge. The older models are, indeed, great values as 2nd hand purchases, but that's good, isn't it?
As a side note, I see that you sold your Joule Electra preamp. What's next? A CTC Blowtorch?
i'll be taking ownership of a custom made preamp by tony at G&D. its rank is 2nd, behind the CTC. i'll let you know...
i've posted enough tips over there and been told i'm wrong on so many things. and frankly, i dont like tipping people off on vintage gear that I WANT. now that i own my pair, i can say conclusively that there are few subs that can compete w/ the entecs (yes, the watchdog is nice--bring your checkbook). so many people think REL is the answer---what a joke. why dont i just listen with my nose in the carpet?
resale value is very much a fxn of age & style (like automobiles, when a model changes body style, the previous body style goes down in value). if you're a buyer for life, dont sweat it. if you're like me and you don't like losing money in this hobby (sold the joule for a profit), it does matter....and thus limits the products one would consider.
Proceed to your nearest Coincident dealer asap! They deliver all the musical goods with ease. I would consider the Total Eclipse along with the Total Victory. Coincidents are the perfect match to your gear, imho. I think most other Coincident owners dont want anyone else in their club so they keep the good news to themselves. I want to spread the love.
Go now, you wont regret it. Best real world priced speakers with giant killing skills. COINCIDENT.