After speaking to Paul at TRL I am very curious to hear from those who own this unit what improvements do you hear with the player before and after the mod.
The SA-14 sounds weak in the bass and has no dynamics in comparison to some players like the Sony Scd-1 in stock form. Has anyone compared the TRL Sa-14 to the Sony Scd-1?
Ozzy, Actually Paul from TRL has been very helpful throught the whole process such far. While the pakcage was very well wrapped, when inspected it was even suspected by more than one FedEX staff that the package probably was dropped from a high place in order to induce the damage from such manner of wrappings. The whole delay is mainly due to the claim department of FedEx trying to side stepped the responsibilty. After being inspected more than three times, change hands in two claim agents, and numerous phone calls from both myself and Paul to the claim department, I look forward to seeing the end of this ordeal soon and get my replaced TRL modded player to enjoy the music.
Since I was contemplating to have a TRL SA11 originally. After all may be it is meant to be for me to have a TRL SA11. Once I get my replacement, I will try to leave some impression here also.
Jack, I look forward to reading your review on ST-225 SOON. :) Regarding your SA14, would you mind giving us a short comparison of it to your mater reels? If you also know anyone who has a top notch vinyle rig, I would love to know how SA14 comapares, too? Thanks.
????? It is common practice that the receiver of a shipment,unfortunately, has to file the claim and go through the red tape. Paul worked diligently on behalf of Howard, by the way, with Fedex on this matter. We all heard about this Fedex screw up and are glad it is getting resolved.
Oldpet-
I spent 5 hours with the ST-225 a couple weeks ago. I heard it with a TRL SA14 source and two different sets of speakers-Soundlab M 1's and Aerial 7 B's. It had a very natural detailed and resolving sound. The timbre of instruments was excellent and the soundstaging and extension was very very good. A better match for the Aerials than the Soundlabs which would really need the big brother- the 550 watt ST 550. Handled the Aerials very well which are no picnic either in terms of efficiency and load. A very nice integrated amp with excellent build quality.
I dont know guys. If I bought something and a Comapny paid to ship it to me and insure it I would think the shipper should deal with the problem not the Buyer. Unless I am missing something, I think you should have got a replacement unit right away from TRL and TRL should collect the Shipping insurance refund when that matter is resolved.
Ozzy TRL Does not make SA-14s. Marantz does. Therefore TRL can't just pull a replacement unit off the shelf and ship it out. TRL just modifies existing units, whatever they may be. When someone, who already owns a particular unit, wants to have it modified, they ship their unit to TRL for modification. The shipping is at the buyers expense. Oh....Marantz doesn't make the SA-14 anymore. They've moved onto the SA-11.
You are missing something. Howard is just fine. He is going to end up with a much much better SOTA reference unit and I am sure in this situation they graciously gave him their preferred pricing they are able to get from Marantz.
Not sure why you are insisting there is a problem, but maybe you have nothing else to do.
Ozzy: I don't really understand. It appears that Howard is pleased with the fact that both he and Mr. Weitzel worked together to resolve the issue.
In other words, Mr. Weitzel DID deal with the problem, along with Howard.
I can understand your concern for your fellow audiophiles. I've recieved e-mails from several audiophiles about unethical business practices ... about one guy in particular.
According to the e-mails, there is one mod shop guy that has had units for well over a year and refuses to reply to phone calls and e-mails. (Care to take a guess, anyone?) I've heard stories that will make your stomach ache. OVER A YEAR! To those who have shared such stories with me, I've suggested that they contact the California State Attorney General to help them resolve the issue. It's a real shame that we have guys like this out there ruining it for the good, ethical modifiers out there.
TRL has shipped over 550 units in the last 9 months of doing mods and has had three that were damaged, despite their over-protective packaging. (Not bad odds, considering the threads you see both here and at Audio Asylum about shipping problems). They have been in business for over 15 years, selling a majority of their product overseas. (Shipping up to 1200 pound units). Mods are just a small portion of their business.
If the Buyer is satisfied , ok. It just sounded wrong to me. I know the anticipation of waiting for new toys to arrive. If it ends up damaged in shipping , I am on the phone with the seller to handle it.
Likdog it sounds like you are trying to pick an argument about my time and how I spend it becuase I stated my opinion. Personally, I think you and Jes45 spend way too much time posting rah-rah for TRL.
I finally tried the QuickSilver silver goo last night. Its now on the RCA outputs and IEC of the TRL SA14, the RCA inputs and outputs of my Joule tube pre, the RCA plugs of the 2 sets of ICs, and the plugs of my pre and amp.
Initially, I hear improved dynamics and treble extension but the sound is overall a bit bright. From what I read, break in requires at least 72 hours of signal flow. The sound should smooth out by then but even at this point I am convinced the Quicksilver does something!
I have had several things damaged in shipping here to Hawaii and the seller (thus shipper) simply replaced the damaged goods. They dealt with the problem on their end. Happens like that all the time from my experience.
Ozzy, Thanks for sympathsizing with me about the situation. A replacement from TRL would be nice, but since my player is specially ordered from HK for its color, it is very difficult to souce from Marantz USA. Paul did try, but yielded no avail. However, it did give me an opportunity to contemplate getting SA11 as replacement instead. Since SA11 is back ordered for awhile, it somehow coincides with FedEX delay to reimburse the amount for the new 9500 damaged. At work a new project comes and I am busy working 14+-hour days this week and possibly weeks to come. I guess I just don't have much time and energy to worry about this, but wish that TRL can bring a closure with FedEX very soon and the new relaced player will show up promptly after the claim being settled. While being frustrated in this whole process, I am also trying to be positive. Being screwed up before by other senders/buyers, I am glad to have a vendor that is willing to work with me to resolve the claim promptly. Rather than being pessimisitc for life is too short, I guess I am trying to be optimistically pessimistic. :) Thanks being to all who have offered encourgements. As always, let's be merry and enjoy listening to music!
Clio, the QuickSilver only has 24 hours on it but it is much smoother and less bright than it was last night. The music last night was not just bright, it was no longer coherent. This evening, much of the coherency is back. The midrange seems a little bit thin, though. I'll listen again after another 24 and 48 hours.
Howard, what color 9500 do you like? I bought mine in HK and got a black one.
Jsala and Clio09: Extreme AV's Quick Silver conductive paste doesn't sound very good initially. Initially, it will sound bright and edgy. The good news is, it does break in and settles down.
After it was thoroughly broken in, I noticed a lower noise floor, improved dynamics (micro and macro), much tighter focus, and improved resolution (like being able to distinguish that there were 2 backing vocals instead of what sounded before like just one).
Huge improvements on video, too! I've had to lower my white level, brightness level and contrast 3 times while the Quick Silver broke in. Image resolution greatly improved. Quick silver alone gave me a larger improvement than my last line doubler up-grade. (And for a fraction of the price).
The Quicksilver really does seem to take most of the 72 hours to settle in. Apparently the break in is somewhat dependent upon the current through the specific contacts. Yes, initially, it makes things much brighter and edgy in my experience. That does smooth out quickly and I like the overall impact of the product after it settles in.
To all, For Quick Silver paste application, do you guys treat only the RCA sockets or are RCA plugs on IC's also treated? How much is needed? Can anyone also suggest the best way to apply 'appropriate' amount?
Yes, I do the male plugs on RCA's also. (Power cord male ends too that go into wall or power conditioner socket). I use enough to "paint" it, but do not put it on thick. I used the little brush they include with it.
Lkdog, I also have some Quick Silver paste that I haven't had time to try yet. When I find some spare time, I will also give it a shot and see how it fares in my rig.
I also heard a good news earlier from TRL that FedEX finally admitted the wrong doing and coughed up the money. Although the whole ordeal took a long while, I am glad it is finally over! Thanks again to Paul at TRL for the assistance and patience in dealing with FedEX and others' sympathy. Now I will be soon back to the game. Hopefully Marantz USA is gonna ship SA11's to TRL very soon, so that I can get my replacement ASAP.
Besides the spray-on stuff, what other devices do you guys use to demagnitize your CD's? Has anyone tried the ionic fan, Furutech RD-2, or others?
Thanks for the feedback. I was glad and relieved that after 24 hours the QuickSilver had settled down quite a bit. I've got an audiophile friend coming over for a listen at around the 68 hour mark. I've got the SA14 running 24 hrs/day, though the preamp and amp are on standby. I had treated all the inputs/outputs being used on my preamp, as well as the ICs that plug into them.
The treble is already reasonably refined and the bass is clearly more powerful (I also put QS on the preamp output that feeds my sub, as well as the IC that plugs into it). Overall sound may be a bit smoother though my focus is for the midrange to fill back out. I will take another listen tonight (~48 hour mark).
Howard, hope you are able to get another 9500 again. I thought my 9500 sounded ok but I decided to go for an SA14 since I have an audio-only system. If you're interested in a lightly used black 9500 from Hong Kong (region free, 220v) then let me know.
On my latest transaction from TRL I was suprised to find some extra goodies in the box. There were some music CDs from Paul's recording company and a bottle of Shine Ola, Brian's creation that is an excellent CD cleaner that leaves no residue. I had been using Audience's Auric Illuminator but not only is Shine Ola easier to use, it results in better sound IMO.
I can't wait to try RRL's vinyl deep wash and cleaner products as I now have my TT back and spinning vinyl again. Try Shine Ola, it is well worth the modest $25 fee.
What differences? Seriously, I can barely tell these days without straining my ears, both with vinyl on my SOTA Nova (Kuzma Stogi, Benz M2) and my Revox B77 (reels). The digital still comes across with less ambience, but perhaps a tad more detail depending on the recording. However, the playing field has been significantly leveled. The digital has a more organic sound to it than I ever thought digital could achieve. I suspect though the results might depend on what TRL modded components you're comparing to the vinyl rig. Mine are:
TRL Alesis ML9600 Audio Mirror D1 DAC (soon to be TRL modded)
Can't say for sure about the various break in times, but if you used it on all of your components/IC's/speaker cables/power cords then there might be some link that is behind the others. The three day mark seemed to settle everything in for me. I have had a positive experience, but as with any tweak or treatment, YMMV. Keep us posted.
I did a mini comparison of 3 aftermarket power cables on the TRL SA14 yesterday and was surprised at how big (and different) an impact they had! One gave the TRL SA14 a "classical" tube sound -- less treble/bass extension, a bit slow, nice bloomy midrange. Another gave a stereotypical SS sound -- very extended, great PRaT but thin midrange. The last was a nicely balanced mix of the first 2, plus slightly more precise imaging... but unfortunately it was the most expensive cable ($750)! My friend who lent me the $750 cable also has a cheaper cable from the same maker (~$200) and I've asked him how the sound compares... At this point, I haven't sent my SA14 back to TRL for the free update, which I understand will improve dynamics, upper bass and flesh out the midrange (round trip shipping will cost me about $300 from Hong Kong).
Jsala: Send it back. The difference is more significant than the original mod. You may want to look back through the posts from those who did send their SA-14 back for the up-date.
Thanks for the input on power cords. Would you mind listing the brands? How did they compare to the TRL power cord you have? Am interested in what power cords people use and like with the TRL SA14. I am using a Ven Haus Audio power cord made for digital.It is one of the older Flavor 2 cords.
What brands of cable did you try? I'm using CRL Silver on my TRL modded transport, but am curious as to what others are experinecing with other brands.
I wondered if anyone has any impression of the Marantz SA-11 before and after the TRL mod? After so much anticipation I was hoping there was some info. I love the looks of this player but will not sacrifice the Sony 2000es TRL if it does not respresent a quantum leap in performance.
Any suggestions are welcome. I am shying away from the SA-14 for now due to the age of the player.
There are some SA11's on order to be modded by TRL. They would be able to give you a before/after analysis. As for needing a "quantum" leap from the Sony 2000 ES to upgrade, that is probably hard to do for any machine as you know. I guess it depends on how you define quantum. I think Jack had the TRL SONY 2000 ES. Maybe he could comment on the difference between that and the TRL SA14. The TRL SA14 is certainly better than the TRL 595 I had, but the 595 has many of the same positive qualities.
I understand your concern about the SA14 as a unit that is no longer in production.
Here are the power cords that I tried with the TRL SA14:
- Most tube-like sound: Bolder Cable Nitro - Most SS-like sound: Cable Research Lab (CRL) Silver series - Best of both worlds: Ven Haus AirSine
Please refer to my descriptions of the sound above. I was quite surprised by how different the power cords were. I was also surprised how the Nitro sounded when paired with the TRL SA14 since in the past with other components the Nitro had great extension and a balanced presentation. It just shows how different components interact differently with different power cords.
Jack, thanks for the input. I am tempted to send the SA14 back to TRL. My thinking was to give them a bit of time to see if they further refine/finalize the mod, since the shipping bills really add up. I'll reach out to Brian. I hope he has fully recovered.
Remember guys that cables must integrate into a system, there is no "one" cable that will work best for every system. Cabling plays an important role in system synergy. For an example, if you had a Krell based system, your cable choices would be different than someone with a SET based system.
Lkdog: Your cable choices would be different now, with your TRL modified Musical Fidelity A300, then before the mod ... right? Prior to the mod, your A300 was a little edgy. At that time, I would have recommended Cardas to help tame your amp. After the TRL mod, I would recommend a more neutral cable like the FIM/CRL. (Sorry for singling you out ... it is a valid point and I hope that you don't mind me using it as an example)
TRL Family: We can not assume that there is one perfect cable that will integrate well with every system. It is important to know the characteristics of various cables so that we can optimize the synergy to make our systems the best they can be.
LA45: Hey Cuz, how have you been? I haven't heard the SA-11 yet, but will soon, as TRL got verification of shipment from Marantz USA yesterday. I'm making a special trip to hear the first one out the door (Tom Moore's), and will happily report back my findings. The TRL/SA-11 will have to be a "very, very special player" in order to make me want one. My TRL/SA-14 has set a pretty high standard in which to beat. (Just ask Oldpet and Lkdog)
Jsala: Send it back. The difference is more significant than the original mod.
Yes, I wonder now about the power cords on my TRL modded MF A300 integrated amp, and my TRL Marantz SA14 as well as speaker cables, and IC's I am using now that I have a more transparent and resolving overall system.
You are correct that synergy is critical. I have always taken the approach of not using cables as tone controls so I think I have pretty neutral stuff, but am always wanting to hear what others have tried with good results.
Jack is correct. The TRL SA14 is a very fine machine. Especially since the mod upgrade, which has been very acurately described in the above posts. Even Brian Weitzel said, in emails back and forth, that this is a "very special" machine. I simply don't have the desire to "upgrade" my source. That says alot - you guys all know how this hobby is. :-)
More experimentation with power cables... this is like tube rolling but without the burnt fingers! ;-)
I tried 2 other power cables on the TRL SA14 -- the Analysis Plus Power Oval and the VenHaus Flavor 4. Then, I really mixed things up by putting the CRL Silver back on the SA14 and trying the Analysis Plus Power Oval on my preamp.
1. Analysis Plus Power Oval and the VenHaus Flavor 4, no change to power cord of preamp
The Analysis Plus Power Oval is clearer, more transparent and smoother than the Flavor 4, with better PRaT as well. Midrange has a nice bloom on acoustic guitar but vocals sometimes sound a bit thin, thinner than the VH AirSine but no where as thin as the CRL silver. The bass was not as extended or as tight as the Airsine or CRL, but tighter than the Flavor 4. At this point, the Airsine is clearly the best all around cord so far. The analysis oval plus is probably #2 overall but the CRL does many things better than it. Really, the midrange of the CRL were fuller then it would be almost perfect with the TRL SA14!
2. Next, put the CRL back on the SA14 and put the Analysis Plus Power Oval on my preamp (replacing my Bolder Cable Nitro)
Interestingly... while the Nitro makes the SA14 sound very tube-like and the AP makes the SA14 sound more dynamic, transparent and quite neutral.... the AP does not make my Joule Electra tube preamp sound thin. I had feared that removing the nitro from the Joule would make the SA14+CRL sound very thin. But, no.... the midrange instead sounds fuller and more natural. The overall sound seems a bit more transparent and extended in bass and treble, though sometimes with less bass weight. Overall, the sound is pleasing. Its amazing how the Nitro can interact very differently with the SA14 and the Joule!
At this point, here are the top 3 cable combos that I've tried so far.
1. VH Airsine on SA14, Nitro on Joule pre 2. CRL Silver on SA14, Analysis Plus Power Oval on Joule pre 3. Analysis Plus Power Oval on SA14, Nitro on Joule pre
I hope to find time for a bit more experimentation. I'd like to try the VH Airsine + AP Power Oval. Then maybe I'll aso try swapping out the bybee'd Nitro on my balanced power supply that powers my Joule and Acoustic Reality digital amp.
Fun fun fun. Some people may wish that the TRL SA14 were tubed, but playing with power cords is really helping to significantly shape the sound... and power cords don't burn out like tubes. These are not changes that are hard for me to hear.
Glad to be back on the scene. I am starting to look around for my next upgrade. I would not mind hearing the APL 3910 but its really out of reach for me. The Exemplar player looks interesting and within reach. Its hard to find a problem with the Sony 2000es TRL (after some additional transport support) sound so an upgrade to the SA14 or SA11 has to be another level up.
Don't know where I will land next so any feedback from users on any of these players are welcome. The SA-14 is a sure winner I just want a current player.
I posted a while back that I sent Paul a SA-8260 for modding. Thanks to everyone who requested updates over the past few months. It has taken a while because one of Paul's key employees was injured in a car accident and he has had a lot of players coming in for modding. After getting it back the break-in period has taken a very long time. Ive lost count of the hours but my best guess is it has 550 to 575 hours on it.
Fresh back from the mod, the player sounded much more dynamic than the stock unit. The bass was deeper but the mids and highs may have been even a little more shouty. I am guessing he uses some type of silver solder or wire because in the past Ive heard the same thing when using silver cables that were not fully broken-in. The soundstage opened up at about the 200 hour point. Images fleshed-out well in front of the speakers, 2 or 3 feet wider than the speakers and at least 5 feet behind the speakers all with a very nice center fill. If you are getting a flat soundstage with your TRL player either its not broken-in or there is a weak link some where in your system, because its not the player.
The mod sounds fine but Im a little concerned about the microdynamics in the midrange and treble. Im not talking about hearing detail but having a real and relaxed sound. This is hard for me to describe but the one area of playback I always listen for is a sense there is no strain in the system and the musicians are simply making music. My wife is a professional musician and I enjoy making music (Im no pro though!) and if I hear sounds that are over emphasized I immediately think something is not right. I know my recordings very well and Ive owned/heard some very good players, dacs and transports over the years. I can just feel if the midrange/treble microdynamics are right. If you spend any significant time around live acoustic music you know what Im talking about.
The TRL 8260 is very good and its getting better as more time is put on the player. Everything is there but it just hasnt relaxed yet. To put it another way, if I were to break down every aspect of this modded player I would say the midrange has clarity, the treble is smooth yet detailed, the soundstaging is huge, the bass is tight and the background is black. However, all those great attributes have not melted together into one very believable sound. I still know Im listening to a CD.
The answer may be to move-up the food chain. A SA-14 maybe on the horizon. Before I go that route, Im just going to let the 8260 keep playing I think its capable of better sound. So even this review is still a work in progress. Ill report back in about another month or so.
Nice reporting Sbayne. Too early to pass judgement and perhaps your keen ears are indeed on track. Microdynamics is part of coherency and synergy. I am sure it will come thru eventually.
If it does not then SA-14 is the next stop where by all reports its no slouch in that category.
However, all those great attributes have not melted together into one very believable sound. I still know Im listening to a CD.
There are many who believe that the TRL players actually take near 750 hours to fully relax and settle in. Your sense of silver wire in the mix is likely accurate. I think they use some of their proprietary power cord wire to the IEC inputs and this is long break in stuff.
Curious as to the rest of your system/cables, etc. I found with the TRL 595 I had that it exposed some of the weaker areas in my integrated amp and speakers a bit more. For me, anyway, it kind of put my system components out of sync.
I ended up having TRL mod my integrated amp.
I eventually moved up to the SA14. As good as the 595 was, and I am sure the SA8260 is, the SA14 does take the next step to suspending disbelief even moreso.
After the SA14 broke in, I ended up moving up to the next level of ACI monitors.
Moral of story- send the damn thing back before you end up upgrading your whole stinking system :)
Just kidding-but it does get you working on the whole synergy and system blance thing.
Thanks Sbayne, I was wondering how the 8260 was sounding. Please give us more feedback in another month. I will be intrested to hear of any improvements after you feel the unit is broke in and everything is coming together. My stock 8260 waits for your final judgement, or start looking to the upgrade path. I hope the TRL mod path is the way to go. Sounds like the mod has already improved everything a great deal.
Brouch - based on my listening the TRL mod is worthy of recommendation as it stands now. I'm just trying to squeeze that last drop of performance out of it. I should mention I've got it sitting on Mapleshade footers with heavyhats. The power cord is a ZCable Red Lighting. So if you consider the total cost I have in this player the $500 TRL mod is well worth it on a cost/benefit basis even if the player doesn't improve with even more break-in (IMHO of course).
I got TRL to upgrade my Audiomeca Enkianthus X dac, and I've been burning it in. I noticed some of the same things you mentioned at first, and it definitely takes a long burn in. However, right now the improvement the mod made is bordering on incredible. I'll post a full review in a week after I have ~400 hours or so on it. It was money WELL spent...
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