Recommended receiver for HT
I finally got around to connecting the subwoofers. I discovered only one of the Velodyne HGS-10s and one of the HGS-15s are functional. I have a third HGS-10 somewhere that I might try. I had forgotten that the Ayre preamp has only left and right outputs, so I really should run pairs of subs, because I don't know how the LF signal is distributed. Tomorrow I'll set crossovers and so forth. I doubt the HGS-10 is worth repairing. db |
Hello DB, Pairs of subs is fine but keeping them balanced as left and right pairs is not important, there's no such thing as stereo bass below 100 Hz. I've previously explained this in detail on another thread, if you want to read it I can find it and send you a link. I suggest you run all your subs in mono mode and try and to find your third HGs-10 because having a total of four subs in your DBA is important. Later, Tim |
Hello cleeds, We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves, that is determine where the sound is coming from, that are below about 100 Hz but we're very good at localizing higher frequency soundwaves in the remainder of the audible spectrum, from about 100 to 20,000 Hz. This is the reason there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass and why the bass is summed to mono on frequencies below 100 Hz on all vinyl and cd recordings. If you doubt this, try to find a single vinyl or cd recording that is not summed to mono. This means it's pointless to configure subs in a stereo configuration with one located by the left main speaker and one by the right. However, thanks to psychoacoustics and our remarkable brains, it is possible to create the perception of stereo bass in our systems. Here's how it works: Whether you use 2, 3 or 4 subs, run them in mono and optimize the bass at your listening seat. The bass below 100 Hz won't be able to be localized but there are bass harmonics or overtones of the deep bass fundamental frequency that extend into higher frequencies that are reproduced by the main stereo speakers and can be localized. Our brains are able to associate the fundamental deep bass frequency reproduced by the subs, that are not able to be localized, with the deep bass's higher harmonic frequencies, that extend well beyond 100 Hz, which are reproduced by the main speakers that are able to be localized. This psychoacoustic association allows us to localize the deep bass in the soundstage, for example the kick drum is located in the rear center and the upright bass is located in the front to the left, which would not be otherwise possible without this psychoacoustic association our brain's are capable of. |
noble100 We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves, that is determine where the sound is coming from, that are below about 100 Hz .This is mistaken, and with the right system can easily be demonstrated. there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass and why the bass is summed to mono on frequencies below 100 Hz on all vinyl and cd recordings.Bass below 100hZ is not summed to mono on all recordings. Not even close. And when it is summed for LP pressings, it's not because " there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass." If you doubt this, try to find a single vinyl or cd recording that is not summed to mono.Done. |
I realized with a bit more afterthought that I had setup the subs incorrectly by using two Velodyne SMS-1 bass managers. The outputs from the preamp need go through a single SMS-1 so it can provide acoustic room correction for the total sub configuration. I don't have a stake in the debate about whether stereo is perceived below 100 Hz. I was concerned about differences in level between the two channels, a concern probably not well founded. db |
cleeds: "noble100 We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves, that is determine where the sound is coming from, that are below about 100 Hz .This is mistaken, and with the right system can easily be demonstrated. there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass and why the bass is summed to mono on frequencies below 100 Hz on all vinyl and cd recordings.Bass below 100hZ is not summed to mono on all recordings. Not even close. And when it is summed for LP pressings, it's not because " there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass." If you doubt this, try to find a single vinyl or cd recording that is not summed to mono.Done." cleeds, Done? What have you done? I can tell you what you haven't done: 1. You've failed to provide any evidence supporting your claim that humans are able to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves, that is determine where the sound is coming from, that are below about 80-100 Hz. Your claim is in direct conflict with the scientific research results on this exact topic. Here's a link to one of many examples: https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_basslocalization.php 2. You failed to reference or list any information supporting your claim that, with the right system, it can easily be demonstrated that bass below about 80-100 Hz can be localized. 3. You failed to provide any evidence to support your claim that "Bass below 100hZ is not summed to mono on all recordings. Not even close. And when it is summed for LP pressings, it's not because " there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass." 4. You failed to name a single vinyl or cd recording that does not have the bass summed to mono below about 80-100 Hz. However, that didn't prevent you from claiming you did on your previous post, here's a quote from your previous post listing a quote from me on a previous post directed to you followed by your odd reply : "noble100:If you doubt this, try to find a single vinyl or cd recording that is not summed to mono.Done." Actually, I fail to see any purpose in your last post on this thread. If it was meant as a rebuttal to my previous post, it's a very poor rebuttal. Apparently, you're still not able to name a single vinyl or cd recording that does not have the bass summed to mono below about 80-100 Hz, I'm only asking for a single example, any example. If you can't, it definitely makes your claim that true stereo deep bass exists completely meaningless. Even if your false claim was true and your system could playback true stereo deep bass, you'd have no true stereo deep bass recordings to play on your system and, therefore, true stereo bass, for all practical purposes, would not exist for you or anyone else whose system was also capable of playback of stereo deep bass. Based on the above facts, I suggest it makes no sense to create one's audio system, or advise anyone else to create an audio system, that includes subs positioned and configured for stereo deep bass playback. It makes much more sense to position and configure any subs in one's system for mono deep bass playback so that playback of existing recordings, that contain exclusively summed mono bass below about 80-100 Hz, are also optimized for mono deep bass performance. Tim |
noble100 You've failed to provide any evidence supporting your claim that humans are able to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves ...You failed to read what I wrote. I cited a specific mechanism that's been shown to allow localizing low bass frequencies. Please read more carefully. Your claim is in direct conflict with the scientific research results on this exact topic. Here's a link to one of many examples:According to your reference, "... as the frequency drops below a critical frequency - usually around 80 Hz - it becomes very difficult to determine a sound's location." That doesn't seem to support your claim that "We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves ... below about 100 Hz ." Please read more carefully. You failed to reference or list any information supporting your claim ... You failed to provide any evidence to support your claim ... You failed to name a single vinyl or cd recording that does not have the bass summed to mono below about 80-100 Hz ... I fail to see any purpose in your last post ... your claim that true stereo deep bass exists completely meaningless.I need to show only one exception to your claim ("We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves ... that are below about 100 Hz") to show that you're mistaken. Even if your false claim was true and your system could playback true stereo deep bass, you'd have no true stereo deep bass recordings to play on your system and, therefore, true stereo bass, for all practical purposes, would not exist for you or anyone else whose system was also capable of playback of stereo deep bass.That is begging the question, the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. I suggest it makes no sense to create one's audio system, or advise anyone else to create an audio system, that includes subs positioned and configured for stereo deep bass playback.You can certainly assemble a very fine system using mono bass - I've heard it done. But that doesn't support the canard that LF can't be localized. And since you obviously have never heard proper stereo LF, your opinion that "it makes no sense" in itself, makes no sense. |
Hello cleeds, Okay, I just reread your previous post and you’re not making any sense. I don’t know exactly what’s wrong with you but you’re not actually giving examples or explanations that you think you’ve given. For example, you stated: "You failed to read what I wrote. I cited a specific mechanism that’s been shown to allow localizing low bass frequencies. Please read more carefully." You blame me for not reading carefully, I reread your previous post thinking I may have missed something and discover there’s absolutely no mention at all of "a specific mechanism that’s been shown to allow localizing low bass frequencies". It’s as if you suffered a stroke and don’t yet realize your diminished cognitive and communication abilities or you’re under the influence of some substance. Meanwhile, I still have no idea exactly what this magic mechanism is. Do you? There are numerous other examples from your last two posts like this. You stated: "I need to show only one exception to your claim ("We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves ... that are below about 100 Hz") to show that you’re mistaken." This is not actually a valid claim but you compound the nonsense by not even giving a single example or exception to the fact we are unable to localize deep bass soundwaves that are below about 80-100 Hz. Your big point from your last post, and the only one that makes a modicum of sense is when you stated: "According to your reference, "... as the frequency drops below a critical frequency - usually around 80 Hz - it becomes very difficult to determine a sound’s location." That doesn’t seem to support your claim that "We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves ... below about 100 Hz ." Please read more carefully." Wow, great point! I did make a mistake in my earlier post by forgetting that some early research results by experts stated we can’t localize deep bass tones below 100 Hz, while more recent research results usually states 80 Hz or an approximate range of 80-100 Hz due to more specific recent experimental data results. My last example of your lack of focus and direct cogent rebuttals is your continued lack of response to my request that you name a single vinyl or cd recording example that does not have all the bass below about 80-100 Hz summed to mono. FYI, I know you'll be unable to find a single example in any recording format. I don’t believe it’s worth the continued frustration of debating with you on this subject if you’re unable to identify even a single vinyl or cd recording containing stereo deep bass. The whole debate becomes moot and we should both just continue using systems we deem best suited to the existing music recordings available. You’ll save a boatload of wasted time searching for something that doesn’t exist if you’re able to accept the reality of all current recorded music on vinyl, cd and high resolution digital audio files lacking stereo deep bass. Until you find one, Tim |
noble100 ... you’re not making any sense. I don’t know exactly what’s wrong with you but you’re not actually giving examples or explanations that you think ... It’s as if you suffered a stroke and don’t yet realize your diminished cognitive and communication abilities or you’re under the influence of some substance ... you compound the nonsense by not even giving a single example or exception ... your lack of focus and direct cogent rebuttals is your continued lack of response ...I can’t help you with your compromised reading comprehension, your repeated illogic or your odd belief that your rambling and word salad somehow constitute a "debate." You’ll save a boatload of wasted time searching for something that doesn’t exist if you’re able to accept the reality of all current recorded music on vinyl, cd and high resolution digital audio files lacking stereo deep bass.There is very much such a thing as stereo bass. Because I have it, there’s no need for me to search for it. Have a nice day! |
cleeds: "There is very much such a thing as stereo bass. Because I have it, there’s no need for me to search for it. Have a nice day!" Hello cleeds, Let me get this straight. You have a system that's capable of playback of music in stereo sound on deep bass and you're still unable to name a single example of recorded music on any format that contains stereo deep bass below about 80-100 Hz ? Forget about the search! All you need to do now to prove your claim that stereo deep bass actually exists is to name a single example of recorded music on any format that you have ever played back on your stereo bass system. Easy right? I mean you'd have to be playing back something recorded with actual stereo deep bass to actually get stereo deep bass reproduced in your room, right? You obviously wouldn't be stupid enough to have a system capable of reproducing deep stereo bass without having any recordings containing deep stereo bass, right? You'd have to be an idiot to do that. Since we both know you can't and won't name a single recording you play on your deluxe stereo bass system because none exist, there's no avoiding the conclusion that there's no such thing as stereo deep bass below 80-100 Hz. I could swear that's what I stated at the start of this waste of time debate? Case closed. Nice try, Tim |
noble100 Let me get this straight. You have a system that’s capable of playback of music in stereo sound on deep bass and you’re still unable to name a single example of recorded music on any format that contains stereo deep bass below about 80-100 Hz ?No, you don’t have it straight at all. I suggest you do a little homework, such as reviewing any of the real scientific literature on sound localization, e.g. Brughera and Dunai; or the work of Stevens & Newman, done w-a-y back in 1936. (That’s old, but the science is still valid.) There’s actually a lot of science on this, but you’ll have to get your head out of silly consumer magazines such as "Secrets of Home Theater" and the like. You may also want to more carefully re-read what I’ve already posted on stereo bass. This thread suggests that you suffer from illogic and compromised reading comprehension, so you’ll probably just continue to cling to your beliefs. Although you wrote "Case closed" what you really have is "Mind closed" and I can’t help you with that. Have a Nice Day! |
I would suggest, advise, and recommend you ignore cleeds, who is like an oozing, fetsering boil on this cite. However if you do not think that it is possible to achieve genuine, accurate, defined stereo bass than you are not working with properties. All audio components have properties and if you do not understand them you are building, assembling, and installing you're Music Reproduction System by trial and error which is virtually assured to result in unpredictable, unsatisfactory, unintended results and this can be show to all who have experienced Tru-Fi. However to be truly successful in the implementation of Tru-Fi you must also account for ICSS which is especially important when working with subwoofers or any full range speaker capable of accepting, reproducing, and delivering natural, genuine, authentic low frequencys. The fatal flaw in Tru-Fi is this failure to understand, accept, and account for ICSS factor which varies based on room, sound treatments, and of course the speakers themselves. |
noble100
"Huh?" I applaud, congratulate, and commend you for asking a question hear about something that you do not fully and completely understand and pursuing, exploring, and studying the qualitys, nature, and application of Tru-Fi is certain to result in you achieving a more realistic Music Reproduction System although I must advise, caution, and inform you that their are practitioners of Tru-Fi who do not fully understand or comprehend how it should be implemented, utilized, and applied and in particular the failure to account for ICSS factor is a limiting shortcoming that will prevent you from fully benefiting from Tru-Fi. |
Hello clearthink, I hope your user name is indicative of your actual cognitive functioning and you'll be able to communicate more effectively than cleeds. Unfortunately, I believe we've gotten off to a poor start based on your first two posts addressed to myself. You mention Tru-Fi as if it's commonly known in your last post. I had no idea of what Tru-Fi refers to so I googled it. My search resulted in a company named Tru-Fi that apparently makes various electric guitar pedals with model names such as Zosa Fuzz, Suppa Fuzz and Colordriver. I'm fairly sure you're not referring to these, so I'm requesting you clarify exactly what you're referring to or just provide a link to a site that explains things. Thanx, Tim |
I connected the Ayre KX-5 to the Velodyne SMS-1 via a balanced Y cable. The fourth order crossover is set at 80 Hz; the level is set so I’m not aware of the Velodyne HGS-10 & 15 as sound sources, and the double bass is not overdone with a Bill Evans trio track, but when a pedal note of the Reiner reading of Saint-Seans 3rd comes along the vibration can be felt. For some reason I don’t really understand, the depth of the sound stage seems enhanced as well. I listen to a lot of jazz and baroque, and, although cognitive dissonance is too strong to imagine a large orchestra in the room, I can easily imagine a trio or quartet in the room -- I’ve heard enough recitals to know the sound well. I had intended to connect the Bryston SP3 to the SMS-1 for surround -- the SP3 provides nice surround setup capabilities. but if the KX-5 is used in bypass mode, both it and the SP3 shouldn’t be sending a signal to the SMS-1. I haven’t got this figured out. Tim, I’ll try to take the other HGS-15 in for repair next week. db |
Hello DB, I thought you were going to take the Bryston SP-3 out of your system and use the Oppo 205 for surround sound decoding instead, connect the l+r stereo/l+r front surround outputs from the Oppo 205 to the KX-5, connect the SMS-1 to the KX-5 and the surround channel outputs on the Oppo 205 connected directly to the NAD surround amps. Tim |
Tim, The SP3 has yet to be installed, and the system is as you describe. Adding the SP3 provides two advantages: (1) When the DC Off-Set problem of Ayre DX-5 DSD is fixed, I'll replace the Oppo 205 with the Ayre as disc player, but the Ayre is not a quasi processor like the Oppo; (2) The SP3 can use 15' balanced cables to the NAD C 268 amps. In furtherance of using the SP3, I re-read several rave reviews. I just discovered my other HGS-15 is not reliably powering-on with LF signal, so that's two HGS-15 to take for repair and perhaps one HGS-10. Wonder if it's time for new subs, but the Velodyne have served so well for decades. db |
Hello DB, I've recently read a few of those rave reviews on the Bryston SP-3 and there's no doubt it's a high quality unit. But the Oppo 105 and 205 are also high quality units and I thought one of your main goals was streamlining and simplifying your system. I think you need to directly compare the sound quality of using the SP-3 to using the Oppo 205 on tv and movies surround sound. You have a lot of high quality stuff. I also believe you need to directly compare the video and audio quality of your Ayre DX-5 DSD to your Oppo 205. I've read that Ayre doesn't just rebadge Oppo players as Ayre players but instead claims they 'reengineer' the Oppo players. For some unknown reason, they also remove the quasi processor circuitry and 7.1 rca outputs for the surround channels. I realize the Ayre DX-5 DSD sold new at retail for about $10K but you still need to verify it outperforms the Oppo, especially considering it lacks the Oppo's quasi processor circuitry and 7.1 channel outputs. If you're unable to notice clear differences in the performance advantages of either the SP-3 or Ayre DX-5 when compared to the Oppo 205, then there's no reason to use them and sacrifice the streamlining and simplification advantages of removing them from your system. Selling them both on the used market would likely provide more than enough funds to cover all of your sub repair costs or the cost of new subs. Your Velodyne HSG-15 and HSG-10 subs are examples of more good stuff you have. My first instinct is to just have all your subs repaired but the most reasonable thing to do is to get specific estimates or at least an estimate range of minimum to maximum repair costs. Only then can you make a rational choice about whether it's best to get them repaired or buy new subs. It seems like a shame to me to not get them repaired since they probably still have some value and are very good subs. If the repair costs seem reasonable to you, having them repaired would be a good option since you like their performance, they'd work very well in a DBA format in combination with your SMS-1 sub control unit and they'd retain considerably more of their value in top working condition as opposed to broken. On the other hand, even if you consider the total repair costs excessive, I was thinking the repair facility might be willing to buy them all from you at a reasonable price. I would suggest a good option would be to then devote these funds toward the purchase of 3-4 new subs. If you choose to do this you'll have a wide assortment of options in a wide range of quality levels,such as a custom DBA consisting of three or four subs of the size, price and quality level you prefer (just make sure these custom DBA subs have a minimum of volume control, crossover frequency selector and a continuously variable 360 degree phase control)or even a complete 4-sub Swarm DBA system. |
Tim, In a pervious setup I was able to compare the sound from the Ayre DX-5 DSD to that from the Oppo 205; they both went balanced to a Parasound JC 2 BP/JC 1 monoblocks driving KEF Ref 107/2s. I preferred the sound from the Ayre -- that Ayre magic of music just seeming to flow. I thought it was very similar to that from my beloved C-5xeMP, but Charles Hansen claimed the DX-5 DSD a bit superior to the C-5, a bit inferior to the QX-5 Twenty. It was the C-5 that introduced me to the Ayre sound, and I was hooked. I've decided to take the two HGS-15s and the HGS-10 to LA for repair. In the meantime, I'm buying something called a Velodyne 12 Optima, the line just below the DD that also uses the high gain servo system. It's only a couple hundred bucks and located in Santa Barbara. I'll use that with the functional HGS-10 until the repaired units return -- I know I have another HGS-10 somewhere but I haven't located it. db |
I use a separate system for video - different amp hooked to an AV preamp (Marantz) and I just switch over the speaker cables from one power amp to the other when I want to switch from audio listening to video or vice versa - I suppose one might be able to find some sort of switch that would do it, but not sure that it would be sonically neutral. I use a separate multichannel power amp for the surround channels. |
Tim, Essentially one system for both music and HT, except stereo doesn't go through the Oppo or Bryston; it's strait Ayre. TV uses the Oppo and Bryston, but substitutes the NAD M22 for the Ayre gear, and NHT Zero+s for the KEF Ref 1s. One could rightly argue the Bryston is superfluous until the Ayre DK-5 DSD replaces the Oppo 205. I mostly play stereo and TV, so little hardship to give up HT for simplification. Then it would be two systems: Ayre for stereo, Oppo and NAD for TV. db |
wspohn, I suppose switching speaker cables is not too much of a PITA if you use banana cables, but it seems a bother if you switch often. Tim, would using 3 subs instead of 4 violate a distribution principle? A single SMS-1 supports 3 equalized outputs, but you need to daisy chain to another SMS-1 for additional outputs. I have 2 SMS-1s, and they are thin enough to stack nicely if daisy-chaining is required. In the past, I've used on SMS-1 for the pair of HGS-15s, the other for the HGS-10s, but the that been in separate rooms. Since I have only two functioning subs right now daisy-chaining hasn't been an issue -- the HGS-15 only functions when I switch it to on rather than its audio-detect mode. db |
dbphd: "Tim, would using 3 subs instead of 4 violate a distribution principle? A single SMS-1 supports 3 equalized outputs, but you need to daisy chain to another SMS-1 for additional outputs. I have 2 SMS-1s, and they are thin enough to stack nicely if daisy-chaining is required. In the past, I've used on SMS-1 for the pair of HGS-15s, the other for the HGS-10s, but the that been in separate rooms. Since I have only two functioning subs right now daisy-chaining hasn't been an issue -- the HGS-15 only functions when I switch it to on rather than its audio-detect mode." Hello DB, Some DBA knowledgeable people I trust claim 3 subs can work almost as well as 4 in some rooms. I've only utilized bass systems with 1, 2 and 4 subs and have no experience using 3 subs in any room. Your room is fairly large and I tend to believe 4 subs is a better option since there'd be less likelihood of a lack of overall bass output volume levels and sufficient reserve power for realistic bass dynamics. I'd suggest using both HGS-15s and both HGS-10s. However, since I've never tried a 3 sub DBA, I can't be certain it wouldn't work well for you. Perhaps you can try both and just use whichever you prefer? Later, Tim |
Tim, Currently thinking of a solution to a problem that entails using one SMS-1 with the HGS-15s for HT and the other SMS-1 with the HGS-10s for music. That is, Bryston SP3 to a SMS-1 for HT, Ayre KX-5/20 to the other for music, with no sharing. That would be counter to the array concept, but would simplify setup. I may have enough HGS-10s that with the Optima 12, I could muster 3 & 3. Of course, that's after the two HGS-15s and HGS-10 are returned from repair. db |
dbphd: "Tim, Currently thinking of a solution to a problem that entails using one SMS-1 with the HGS-15s for HT and the other SMS-1 with the HGS-10s for music. That is, Bryston SP3 to a SMS-1 for HT, Ayre KX-5/20 to the other for music, with no sharing. That would be counter to the array concept, but would simplify setup. I may have enough HGS-10s that with the Optima 12, I could muster 3 & 3. Of course, that’s after the two HGS-15s and HGS-10 are returned from repair. db" Hello DB, I believe I have a bias toward using a single shared system for the playback of music, TV and HT that consists of utilizing the exceptional benefits of a complete 4-sub DBA system on all three. FYI, I usually just include TV watching as part of HT because I use the same 5.4 surround system for both and for simplicity’s sake. I think I’ve developed this bias due to the mental and physical experimenting efforts I invested into its creation as a personal system solution and the fact that it works so well for me. My current combination music and HT system requires no switching of wires or even the pushing of remote buttons, all switching between uses occurs automatically with my source selection chosen by just inserting a Blu-ray disc in my Oppo 105 or just selecting a channel on my Xfinity cable TV remote. The only exception is 2-channel stereo music listening that requires turning on my NAS hard drive and selecting a music track or album to playback on my laptop. The music begins playing automatically but, when done and I want to watch TV/ HT for example, I do need to select the HDMI input on the Oppo remote to switch the input source. However, I now better understand that taking advantage of the amazing capabilities and versatility of the Oppo player is the key enabling this seamless system integration and ease of use. I’ve learned through the experiences of attempting to help others to achieve this same level of seamless integration and ease of use, it requires they also need to utilize an Oppo 105, 105D or 205 player as a limited input preamp, CD and movie disc player as well as the player in a hi-res digital music file system. If they prefer to use a specific separate preamp for music, as I originally did, it makes things a lot more difficult and requires additional switching and compromises or a lot more noodling on a solution. Unfortunately, I believe seamless integration of a music and a HT system into a well functioning single shared combination system requires the use of a top model Oppo player, or similar player, and the only alternative solutions I’m aware of require a good amount of switching or two separate systems or a bigger noodle than I possess. Later, Tim |
Tim, Last night my wife declared the vocal clarity of the NAD M22 paired with the NHT Zero+ inadequate for TV, so I think my idea of an energy efficient system for TV may be out. We instead will use the KEF Ref 1s with the Ayre preamp and amp and whatever source is selected: TV, Roon endpoint (Ayre), or disc player (Ayre or Oppo). That also solves the sub woofer array problem; there will be 2 HGS-15s and 2 HGS-10s after repairs. It's time to reprogram the Harmony One. I will explore the Audioengine 2+ for TV audio -- my wife has previously been satisfied with its vocal clarity, the speakers are low enough to clear the bottom the projection screen, and I think it can connect directly to the Oppo, perhaps via USB. db |
Hello DB, By the way, do you want me to call you DB or do you prefer something else? Okay, I think I've got it. You're going to use the Ayre CD player, Roon, Ayre KX5 preamp, VX5 amp and the KEF Ref 1s for music playback. You're going to use the Ayre preamp, amp and Ref1s doing double duty for TV and HT playback along with the Oppo 205 for video disc playback (connected via HDMI to the SP3) and the Bryston SP3 for 7.1 surround sound with the NAD amps and KEF LS50s attached to the SP3 for side and rear surround channels. The two SMS-1s, along with the four subs connected, will be attached to the Ayre preamp. You'll be able to select through the Ayre preamp whether the Ref 1s play the l+r stereo channels for music or the l+r front channels for TV and HT. Does this sound right? If so, I think it's a good plan. I'm not familiar with the AudioEngine 2+ for TV audio but I'm going to research it later tonight. Later, Tim |
Tim, I prefer db. The Audioengine 2+ worked out well for TV, so the system for music will remain Ayre preamp and amp to KEF Ref 1s, sourced by the Ayre digital hub or Ayre disc player. This system will be supplemented by the Bryston SP-3 for distributing surround channels to a pair of Class D NAD amps that drive KEF LS50s side and rear speakers. Output from the Ayre preamp goes to the master SMS-1 that's daisy-chained to a slave SMS-1. I'm currently using Cox TV through the Oppo 205 to the Audioengine, but tomorrow I'll try Cox TV directly to the AE. I plan to use the Oppo 205 in another setup. db |
Cox TV direct to the Audioengine 2+ failed because the AE remote didn't control volume, so the AE will be Zone 2 from the Bryston SP3, making it easy to switch from the main setup up to an energy efficient TV only setup. The SP3 has no role for stereo, which is strait Ayre, but for surround the source passes through the SP3 via HDMI and from the SP3 to a by-pass input of the Ayre preamp via balanced analog. It took a lot of churning with help from folks on this thread, especially Tim. but I think I've achieved a system that does everything I want. db |
Hello DB, Excellent! I'm glad we arrived at a system solution you like. I'm anxious to find out your impressions of your 4-sub DBA system on music and HT once you have all your subs back from repair and setup. If you need help with that portion, just send me a personal message or post on this thread, I'll continue to monitor this thread until I read of your impressions on your soon to exist custom DBA system. Enjoy, Tim |
Cox TV via Zone 2 from the Bryston SP3 to the Audioengine 2+ is the solution I sought for energy efficient TV. It uses the volume control of the SP3 but completely circumvents the rest of the HT setup. Unexpected is the ability to play the Cox music channels directly to the AE 2+, and the discovery that its sound is pretty damn good for music. It won't fool you into thinking you're listening to the Ayre 5/20 series digital hub, preamp, amp and KEF Ref 1s, but then its MSRP is about $200 vs about $4K for the Ayre/KEF stuff -- of course that's without the SP3 that had an MSRP about $10K. Glad I bought the Ayre gear and SP3 used, so MSRP didn't apply. db |
Hello DB, Excellent! Not just success but finely refined success. Good job. Now, to lock up your winning the 'Montecito Green Man of the Year Award' , you just need to share your energy efficient TV watching method with your town neighbors. My wife and I will try to make it out there for the award ceremony. Later, Tim |
Fyi guys, The Ayre DX-5 was not a rebadge of the Oppo bdp-83. Ayre only uses Oppo 83's disc drive (disc transport mechanism), Oppo's chassis, Oppo's video processing board & video clock, Oppo's firmware & GUI & OSD & possibly Oppo's remote. That's it. Everything else was Ayre all the way. Ayre built & designed its own power supplies, power supply caps, regulator, voltage regulator, USB input implementation design, audio clock, DAC, DAC implementation & configuration, digital filters, analog output buffer, analog audio output stages, etc. The only things you will find inside the Ayre DX-5 are Oppo's disc transport mechanism (disc drive) & Oppo's video processing board & Oppo's video clock but not the audio clock. They share the same platform (chassis). Ayre wasn't the only one that used Oppo's disc transport & Oppo's video processing board, firmware, GUI & OSD. Some other high end hifi manufacturers also do the same with their universal bluray disc players. Theta, EMC, MSB Technology, and McIntosh MVP901, which uses the same Mediatek based video processing platform as the Oppo 105. The McIntosh MVP901 uses same disc transport mechanism, HDMI & video processing board, video clock and all the way to HDMI output transmitters as that of the Oppo 105/103. Both the Mac MVP901 & the Oppo 105/103 also share the same menu setups, GUI, OSD. Except on the main menu on the MVP901 says McIntosh instead of Oppo. |
I concur with caphill; the same disc played on the Ayre DX-5 DSD and Oppo 205 sounds better on the Ayre, perhaps even better than when played on my Ayre C-5xeMP, the component that introduced me to Ayre. Tim, I’ve delivered a Velodyne HGS-10 and -15 to George Meyer in LA. Turns out the other HGS-15 functions as it should, as does the other HGS-10. According to George, those HGS models are fine subs. db |
Hello DB, Yes, I know anything from Ayre is going to sound very good. I've never used a Velodyne sub but, from the reviews I've read and your comments, I think they'll perform very well in your custom 4-sub DBA. Positioning and precisely adjusting the volumes, crossover frequencies and phases will probably be the difference between optimum bass performance in your room and something less which, however, will still likely sound very good. When do you expect them back? Are you all set on how to best position and configure them? Tim |
