Move From AVR to Integrated?

@perkadin My Denon does not have pre outs, unfortunately. Only the 3xxx series and up does. The cost of buying a new AVR and an amp would be just as much as something more dedicated like the SHD which has better DAC, better room correction, high signal to noise, etc.. 

The best solution for you would be to add a 2ch amp and use your receiver as the preamp.  I just did this with my Yamaha RX-A1000. Fortunately your Denon has HDMI ARC, a 12v trigger, and pre-outs for the mains which is all you need.  I really wanted to keep a single remote and have everything turn on and off with a single button which is where ARC and the 12v trigger come in handy. There are hundreds of 2ch amps you can find in your price range.  It won’t be hard to significantly improve upon the amp section of your Denon. 
I was limited on space so I went with a Linn AV5105, which is an incredible used bargain in the 400-500 dollar range. They were originally around $1800-1900 new.  

I think I’ve decided on budgeting a few more bucks and going this route:

1. miniDSP SHD - DAC, Dirac Live processor for well reviewed sub integration, crossovers, parametric EQ, streamer, balanced and RCA inputs and outputs. Promising high signal to noise measurements.
2. Monoprice Monolith 2x200 AB amp. - made by ATI with really solid measurements that should be a piece to last years and power anything I need.

Comes to about 2200. This is more than the 1500 budget, but it’s what I’m shooting for.

Last month I bought the Andover Songbird as I was searching for an affordable way to stream free internet radio from a browser on my Windows pc to my older stereo system via WiFi.  I did not want to use a streaming service such as Spotify or Tidal. It seemed easy.  I connected the Songbird to an aux input of the preamp, and, as indicated by the manual, a female voice announced its presence through my speakers.  It also appears as a device on my network.  I had no difficulty streaming from my iPhone but have not succeeded in getting any sound from the pc.  According to the "manual," the songbird should appear on pc's sound control panel.  It does not.  Two phone calls and an email to Andover support have not produced any response.  I would be interested to learn if anyone else has succeeded where I have not. 

Marantz pm7000n is a true all-in-one with a built in streamer ready made for Tidal, Qobuz, etc., for $999 USD, as another option if you want an all in one box without having to get a separate streamer with the Outlaw. I own one and can strongly recommend. Replaced my Bluesound Powernode2 in my office system, and much better. One of the Brit hifi mags declared it the best all-in-one under $1k, but I forget which. Just check the reviews, very highly acclaimed.

@mesch I realize not all watts are created equal, and I imagine the Outlaw has clean power compared to my avr. I wonder if there will be a noticeable difference in headroom compared to my 95w Denon AVR-X2600H. Stereophiles measurements said Outlaw digital inputs weren't great. I'm sure there are going to be tradeoffs no matter which way I go. 

Based on your requirements and the Outlaw's features I believe it to be a great option for you. 

OP,

Since you are under budget with the Outlaw you might think about adding a separate streamer to handle your hi-res streaming. 

https://www.andoveraudio.com/products/songbird-hi-res-internet-audio-streaming-device

I dont have any experience with this Andover Songbird but it was mentioned favorably in another recent post regarding affordable streamers. $129, has analog or digital outs so you can still use the DAC in the Outlaw. Does Tidal, Qobuz and a handful of other streaming services and supports Airplay and dlna. I haven't dug deep into the specs or anything but thought I might point it out for your consideration. 

Sounds like there may be some issues with Outlaws implementation of DLNA that prohibits lossless streaming both over wired and wireless connection. Kind of a big issue, but I'll try to ask them directly. 

@213runnin I put in a ticket request with them too. They also have a driver for windows so you can run USB to unit and the DAC functions as the sound card. But yeah, with wifi capability, I hope there's a way to stream from phone for ease. 

Sorry cool, I’m not sure of the capabilities WRT a phone. Here’s a link to their forum where this is discussed. It sounds like an app may be coming for this. One poster suggests he can connect his ipad with the cck cable.

http://saloon.outlawaudio.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=99114#Post99114  

Other than that you may want to call Outlaw directly.

@guy-incognito I'm leaning that direction. My only concern is setting up a way to stream things like Tidal over its wifi. It pretty much ticks all my boxes and looks classic. The separates route is still an option but I feel I might regret it at my price point. 

That outlaw is a solid option. I didn't realize they had a 2nd generation available. I looked at the gen 1 after it was out of production and it looked like a solid performer for the price and is well regarded. Im sure you would be happy if you went that route. 

Hmmm, would not consider any speaker under 92 db?? Wow, I must be screwed, as my Tannoys ($5500) @ only 89 DB sound just fine with My class A Sugden signature @ only 30 watts....yeah I had better sell them asap and get 92 db speakers, wow....I think the quick sand is up to my chin right now....laughable advice....🙄🙄🙄

@213runnin Do you happen to know if the wireless internet in the Outlaw easily allows for streaming from a phone things like Tidal? I do a lot of listening thru that. 

Yup, it never hurts to take your time to sleep on it.  

I slept in it and will do so for a few more days. At this point I’m leaning towards the Outlaw. Not only does it offer an increase in quality power, but measured pretty well, has a quality phono stage that matches the output of my cartridge (and I’m sure an upgrade from my Art DJ), as well as offering basic bass crossovers to my sub and mains. Also allows the use of an EQ unit if I so desire to use Dirac. With the exception of shipping, there is a return policy for Outlaw. The Arcam is attractive, but may be a bit more than I want to spend right now. I’m still debating on separates. The zPre3 I could get for 225 on ebay directly from a seller. Would make total cost of what I’m looking at around 1200. Would not include bass management, but that preamp does have bypass. My room is a shared living space so while I measured the sub with REW to get best placement, I'm limited in other things. Speakers are out from wall, but not 6 feet into the room like Cardas or other methods recommend. Separates would offer me flexibility and a path to upgrade, but if I’m not happy, returns wouldn’t be as flexible or easy with multiple components. Not going to make the decision immediately.

Apologies for being a broken record. I realize this setup is small potatoes in a place like this, but it's a bigger deal for me. 

What’s diff between integrated amp and avr, seem same type of box.

I am a little late getting back. I recommended an integrated amplifier due primarily to budget. Many have the features you desire and at your budget will provide a sonic quality equal to or better than separates.  I am just not convinced that the purchase of separates is the most viable given the number of great integrated amplifiers available within your budget. The sources you use are equally important and need to compliment your amplification and speakers. 

My approach, only one of many, would be to invest in a quality integrated amplifier. Save flexibility for the source components. Run the speakers full range and manage bass with placement, x-over, phase, and volume functions on the sub(s).

I wish you the best which ever way you choose. 

Happy hunting.  Let us all know if you decide on anything or go a different route completely. 

@guy-incognito. Given it's from Arcam, I don't imagine it's a cheap amplifier they're using. Having Dirac built in is a huge plus as well. As I mentioned earlier, I'm still attracted to being able to replace/upgrade individual components, but there are trade offs. With the Arcam, all my eggs are in one basket for better or worse. Also a bit more than I wanted to spend, but would be worth pushing budget if I decided on it. I appreciate you finding that deal. I doubt it will be around for long. 

I still can't find the review with the bench test measurements but per the stereophile review...

"Power output: 90Wpc into 8 ohms (20Hz–20kHz, <0.02% THD) (19.5dBW), 125Wpc (21dBW), both channels driven, at 0.2% THD."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/arcam-fmj-sr250-stereo-av-receiver-specifications

Read some reviews on the Arcam if you have any interest. That 90 watt rating is conservative. There is a bench test with measurements that confirms this (that i couldn't easily find right now). My Revel F208 towers don't seem underpowered so I am sure this would easily drive your bookshelves. This route would not be a loss in power compared to your AVR regardless of how the specs are interpreted. This would also be a step up overall from the Parasound classic line in my mind. I am a big fan of the parasound halo stuff though, like a P6/A23+ combo but now you are back up around $3200 new or $2200ish used. 

@guy-incognito That is definitely a sweet deal/set up. I know watts are not made equal, but was hoping to have a bit more power. That said, 90 vs 110 isn’t a big deal. With the separate route I could have 2x200 and still come in under the cost of the Arcam. Again tradeoff is modular ability vs integration. A niche product but definitely something designed for my kind of use. I’m weighing options for sure.

The Arcam SR 250 is a 2.1 oddity of sorts. You can call it an integrated with HMDI benefits or a 2.1 channel AVR, so it most likely won't win over too many purists around here. I have a similar situation as you. I wanted to move away from an AVR and multi-channel but I am still using this with my TV in the main family room. The Arcam is musical and was a huge improvement over my Marantz AVR with an external amp. It has Dirac room correction and bass management which is miles ahead of any Audessy product I have used. Im using it with my Revel F208 towers and don't feel its underpowered. You still get HDMI switching and it has a built in DAC which I can't say much about as I use an external DAC and streamer for a digital source. At $1499 NIB its a good deal that will be hard to beat IMO. The used Parasound Hint 6 integrated would be my second choice but it will probably cost you more used than the Arcam. 

Check out the now discontinued Arcam SR 250. MSRP was $3600 but Music Direct has it listed for $1499 (trying to clear out stock i would assume). 

https://www.musicdirect.com/receiver/Arcam-SR250-Stereo-AV-Receiver-2?gclid=Cj0KCQiA0MD_BRCTARIsADXo...

@213runnin. Finding a quality preamp for a good price is going to be the tricky part. 

That sounds like the best long term decision then.  I love separates and I’ve spent way too much on them!  In fact right now I’ve got 4 2 channel amplifiers with two in storage.  

@213runnin Difficult choice. Perhaps the separate components with option to upgrade to better preamp down the line with better bass management would be more flexible for me. That said, the impatient part of me wants everything to be great right away. Lol

Coolhandduke, I'd say you'll be a winner either way.  By the way, Outlaw Audio was founded by Peter Tribeman about 20 years ago, and he's the driving force behind it today.  

He was with Nad when they released the ground breaking 3020 in 1978.  Wiki thinks its one of the most important components in the history of audio because it's price was so low and it's performance was so high.

Outlaw Audio was one of the first audio companies to do the internet direct business model.  

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1PAC200INT&trk_msg=AFCNRKDE7ATKFAQ7DFECLVCINS&a...

It’s a demo/open box price.

Yes, I agree, I prefer A/B (My Belles is A/B), but would also trust Parasound with class D sound.

The class alone does not guarantee quality of sound.

I just don’t know enough about Outlaw, but for the price, with all its ‘goodies’, you might be not much better than your AVR at that price point. But, personally, don’t know that. It would be a concern though.

@bkeske Looks like the 899 is for the pre one not the integrated unless I'm not finding it. I do not know enough about amplifier class, but Outlaw is AB and Parasound is D. I'm sure it's a whole other discussion about the pros and cons of each. Yes, either optical or coaxial. Since I only use my PS4 right now, I can feed optical directly into DAC or preamp. 

Audio Advisor has the Parasound NewClassic 200 integrated for $899 right now. 
Although the Outlaw looks interesting, I would trust overall sound quality to Parasound. But that’s just me. The NewClassic would basically do everything the Outlaw does without WiFi. But, if you get that inexpensive Dayton streamer, that would take care of that.

I assume you will hook up your TV via optical?

Here are the 2 options I'm seeing right now based on 2 different approaches: 

1. Outlaw Audio 2160 (999) with something like Dayton streamer (maybe 60ish). Upsides are components are designed to work together and offer bass management. Downside is needing to replace entire unit to upgrade. 
2. Separates - something like Topping E30 DAC (130), Dayton streamer, preamp (maybe buy used on this/something around 300-400), power amp (dual mono from Outlaw 700). Downside is no bass management. Benefit is ability to upgrade individual components

So that's where I'm at for the moment. 

@bkeske Haha.  That's certainly true. And yeah, I'm certainly leaning towards changing up to a more audio oriented setup. The advice I'm getting here is helping a lot so that I'm making a worthwhile investment. 

There are always ‘holes’, that’s why we keep buying stuff 😁

But, believe me, as I’ve been where you are now, your biggest hole is trying to get good 2 channel music from an AVR. Get that out of the chain, and your other holes won’t seem so large.

Believe me, as I didn’t want to believe that my AVR couldn’t be an acceptable 2 channel preamp either, surrounded by all my other upgrades....separate amp, separate phono stage, separate DAC, etc. Then  kicked myself for not getting the AVR out of the music chain sooner after I hooked up the little Parasound pre. Oh well, at least I had bought all those other goodies along the journey, some replaced, and still others to be replaced....including the Zpre eventually  :-)

@213runnin No, I really appreciate this info. When I think of one option, another hole in the chain becomes apparent. And while some do run mains wide open, the Sierras are going to distort at higher volumes on the low end. If they could handle higher SPL at the 40hz I wouldn't be as concerned. 

213runnin Does the Outlaws bass management work both to limit low frequencies to sub and also so only those above go to mains?

Yes, it crosses over the mains as well as the sub.  Being that you've got bookshelf speakers(albeit very good bass response for a standmount), having a sub is essential to hearing anything below about 40 hz.  I happen to have a HSU sub in my 2 channel rig as well as one in the theater, they are superb at their price points.

To me the best thing about the P5 pre from Parasound was it had this sub crossover feature.  It was the best blending of my Totem Rainmakers that I'd heard.   

I don't mean to try to push the Outlaw on you, just that it's good to know all of the pros and cons of any option before you decide.  

There are many different thoughts on bass management. I’ve tried many, and have no issue leaving my Vandersteen 2CE Sigs run full range, and my two subs adjusted to supplement and augment them, not replace their bass.

Paul McGowan of PS Audio was the first I had heard believe in keeping their mains at full range while using subs. So, I tried it. It works, but simply works differently than the more ‘typical’ way or stripping out most the lows at your mains and replacing them with the subwooofer. You can use all of the subs. It just take a bit more time fine tuning. 

In the end, I prefer that method for music. Granted, in HT, it may not be as powerful, but that isn’t my primary goal, music is.

BTW, the ZPre also has a sub RCA/LFE connection. It just does not have the adjustments of the NewClassic 200, Which does allow you to manage your bass to the mains and subs.

@213runnin Does the Outlaws bass management work both to limit low frequencies to sub and also so only those above go to mains? 

@coolhandduke

That is a good deal. I would strongly consider that as a package. But it is a bid situation with 4 days left.

That particular Zphono goes for about $200 new, so keep that in mind.

Or, give him an offer and see if he accepts.

The problem with using your sub crossover and sending the full range signal to the speakers is this.  Trying to blend the speakers manually can lead to nulls in the frequency as the sub’s output cancels the speakers low end.  
Bass management in the pre or integrated amp that crosses over the speakers as well as the sub is considered superior.

@bkeske OK. Subs crossover was what I was referring to. Here's a link to the preamp: 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Parasound-Z-Custom-Zpre3-stereo-preamp-and-Zphono-with-rack-kit-No-Reserve-...

@coolhandduke

No, I can adjust my subs crossover and gain at the subs themselves, so I adjust them independently for music. I have high speaker connections at the subs as well, and they are both getting their signal from my Belles 2 channel amp speaker terminals (as well as feeding my front speakers). It takes no power from my front speakers as the subs are powered and have their own amps, thus only receiving a signal from my amp.

As I stated earlier, I no longer use the LFE. For me, this works great, for music.

As far as a used unit going for $350 with a Zphono included, make sure what models they are. My Zpre3 is the newest model, but there are older ones. Not saying the earlier models may not work for you, they might.

@bkeske I saw an ad for it plus the phono stage for 350, but he may be willing to split them up. I might jump on that deal. Are you just using your subs Internal crossover? 

The Parasound Zpre3 preamp is what I bought to separate my Belles amp from my AVR for dedicated 2 channel listening. Great little pre for the money. I got mine from Safe and Sound as an open box for $350.

As I already had a separate DAC, phono stage, and streamer, it’s all I needed. And to have the HT bypass makes it work great for TV/home theater/AVR integration. Easy. And very good sound, finally, for all my 2 channel listening.

Highly recommended for the value it brings.

@213runnin I'm certainly out of my depth when concerning synergy. It is nice knowing each component could be upgraded separately over time as opposed to replacing a while unit, but I don't know at what cost. 

I just checked, and the Parasound Zpre puts out more voltage than unity power of the Outlaw, so you'd be fine there.

There question is, will the Zpre be a good match with the Outlaw amps.  Good vs poor synergy.  This is where an integrated option guarantees good synergy because it's all in one box.

Although I suspect that at this end of the budget spectrum, synergy is less of an issue.

@213runnin What I see on Outlaw is 1.6V sensitivity for 8ohm load. On Parasound, I show max output of 3.5V and for input sensitivity I see 250mV = 1V output.