Move From AVR to Integrated?

@yogiboy 

Thanks for the +1. For streaming I could just add a Dayton wireless streamer and looks like the pre outs/ main in would allow for use of mini dsp Dirac if I wanted to utilize that. Just weighing options with buying separates (see my last comment), since I might be able to do it for less or about the same. 

Here are the 2 options I'm seeing right now based on 2 different approaches: 

1. Outlaw Audio 2160 (999) with something like Dayton streamer (maybe 60ish). Upsides are components are designed to work together and offer bass management. Downside is needing to replace entire unit to upgrade. 
2. Separates - something like Topping E30 DAC (130), Dayton streamer, preamp (maybe buy used on this/something around 300-400), power amp (dual mono from Outlaw 700). Downside is no bass management. Benefit is ability to upgrade individual components

So that's where I'm at for the moment. 

@213runnin I think Outlaw shaves off 100 when you purchase 2 of the amps. The budget can also be moderately flexible, just staying around that ballpark. I'm probably buying used for the pre, just would want something well built. I did find a Parasound ZPre3 for a couple hundred that might fit the bill. 

@213runnin Difficult choice. Perhaps the separate components with option to upgrade to better preamp down the line with better bass management would be more flexible for me. That said, the impatient part of me wants everything to be great right away. Lol

@213runnin. Finding a quality preamp for a good price is going to be the tricky part. 

@millercarbon I am still in trial period with these and love how they sound. I am aware of how sensitivity works logarithmically with power, but didn't realize I would have a problem. However, I am probably limited in my choices within my price range for sensitivity that high. 

@erik_squires Thank you. I placed the sub using a calibrated mic and REW to find best response. The bass management helped smooth out what placement did not. 

Yeah, it's rough. I want to stream and use digital sources. I'm considering moving to an AVR with pre outs, and utilizing a separate 2 channel amp or 2 mono blocks. That way I only use avr for processing. 

May not be feasible for me to get what I'm looking for without really running up the bill. 

@erik_squires I don’t plan on using more than 2.1. Which is why I wish there were more features in integrated amps. Just a bit of connectivity would be great.

I’ll probably upgrade to 3xxx Denon and then pre out to stereo 200wpc power amp or mono block. I can use the streaming, bass correction and video capabilities but leave the amplification to a dedicated A/B amp. May be the best trade off for me and could do for 2k or under.

@jnehma1 

Thanks for the level headed response. It does seem like there's going to be trade offs no matter which way I go and particularly at my price point. Maybe I'll save the money I may have spent on an external amp if that doesn't seem like a worthwhile investment. I assumed more/separate power would be less taxing on a dedicated unit, but sounds like that may not result in any audible benefits. 

For the foreseeable future I'm in a setting where I kind of need the system to do everything for me in a limited environment. Anyways, I'm learning as I go. Just hoping to be saving for the right things and not wasting investments. Thank you. 

@erik_squires Far out of my price range I think. Thank you though. Kind of affirms I can't get those things unless going to premium models. 

@bkeske I am attracted to the integrated route. I am just trying to be realistic about having a shared living room/listening area and placement/treatment has its limitations. If it was a separate space I'd certainly go that route. I'm looking more into the Parasound. Looks like it has on board DAC but you use a separate one? Which streamer do you use? I don't know how everything fits together. Really, I have 1 TV with 1 or 2 video sources, a turntable,  2 speakers, and a sub. If all of it can connect, I'm certainly willing to simplify from needless AVR stuff. 

@fuzztone I don't think there's a need to be condescending. I thought the AVR was not a cheap investment. They don't manufacture many products that have ability to use hdmi audio, stream, offer some correction, etc. In 2 channel varieties. If everyone here is able to have a dedicated listening space, treat the room, have multiple subs for more even response, then yes, maybe I am in the wrong place. I'm just looking to know more not be difficult. 

@213runnin

Nice. I did consider this one. 

This evening I was also pricing out separate components and curious what you think. Perhaps something like: 

Topping E30 (DAC) - $120
Dayton Wireless Streamer - $60
Outlaw 2200 Monoblock (2x200wpc for $600)
Find a decent preamp used (could do with very basic without phono, DAC, etc. Since I'd have separates. Just enough inputs) 
MiniDSP - between preamp and power amp, I think? If I want to keep low frequency correction and use Dirac. 

Perhaps that would allow upgrades over time instead of relying on one unit. Only concern is if separates play well together. What do you think? 

@213runnin What I see on Outlaw is 1.6V sensitivity for 8ohm load. On Parasound, I show max output of 3.5V and for input sensitivity I see 250mV = 1V output. 

@soix 

Thanks for the recommendation. Looks like a cool integrated amp. I hadn't really thought about it, but I suppose when it comes to Playstation I could connect hdmi from Playstation to TV, then coaxial from TV back to integrated amp. 

On another note, I'm looking at individual separate components online. Wondering if that might be an option. I'm sure I could find a second hand preamp, DAC, streamer, power amp, and could even use a mini DSP if I wanted to use Dirac. 

@bkeske OK. Subs crossover was what I was referring to. Here's a link to the preamp: 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Parasound-Z-Custom-Zpre3-stereo-preamp-and-Zphono-with-rack-kit-No-Reserve-...

@mesch Seems like the Outlaw is well regarded. If I choose to use Dirac, I imagine a mini DSP unit would get connected via pre out, then back in at main in? 

@mesch Is there a reason why one would recommend integrated vs the separate route? Just ease of use and compatibility? 

@213runnin Does the Outlaws bass management work both to limit low frequencies to sub and also so only those above go to mains? 

@213runnin I'm certainly out of my depth when concerning synergy. It is nice knowing each component could be upgraded separately over time as opposed to replacing a while unit, but I don't know at what cost. 

@bkeske I saw an ad for it plus the phono stage for 350, but he may be willing to split them up. I might jump on that deal. Are you just using your subs Internal crossover? 

@bkeske Haha.  That's certainly true. And yeah, I'm certainly leaning towards changing up to a more audio oriented setup. The advice I'm getting here is helping a lot so that I'm making a worthwhile investment. 

@guy-incognito. Given it's from Arcam, I don't imagine it's a cheap amplifier they're using. Having Dirac built in is a huge plus as well. As I mentioned earlier, I'm still attracted to being able to replace/upgrade individual components, but there are trade offs. With the Arcam, all my eggs are in one basket for better or worse. Also a bit more than I wanted to spend, but would be worth pushing budget if I decided on it. I appreciate you finding that deal. I doubt it will be around for long. 

@213runnin No, I really appreciate this info. When I think of one option, another hole in the chain becomes apparent. And while some do run mains wide open, the Sierras are going to distort at higher volumes on the low end. If they could handle higher SPL at the 40hz I wouldn't be as concerned. 

@bkeske Looks like the 899 is for the pre one not the integrated unless I'm not finding it. I do not know enough about amplifier class, but Outlaw is AB and Parasound is D. I'm sure it's a whole other discussion about the pros and cons of each. Yes, either optical or coaxial. Since I only use my PS4 right now, I can feed optical directly into DAC or preamp. 

@guy-incognito That is definitely a sweet deal/set up. I know watts are not made equal, but was hoping to have a bit more power. That said, 90 vs 110 isn’t a big deal. With the separate route I could have 2x200 and still come in under the cost of the Arcam. Again tradeoff is modular ability vs integration. A niche product but definitely something designed for my kind of use. I’m weighing options for sure.

I slept in it and will do so for a few more days. At this point I’m leaning towards the Outlaw. Not only does it offer an increase in quality power, but measured pretty well, has a quality phono stage that matches the output of my cartridge (and I’m sure an upgrade from my Art DJ), as well as offering basic bass crossovers to my sub and mains. Also allows the use of an EQ unit if I so desire to use Dirac. With the exception of shipping, there is a return policy for Outlaw. The Arcam is attractive, but may be a bit more than I want to spend right now. I’m still debating on separates. The zPre3 I could get for 225 on ebay directly from a seller. Would make total cost of what I’m looking at around 1200. Would not include bass management, but that preamp does have bypass. My room is a shared living space so while I measured the sub with REW to get best placement, I'm limited in other things. Speakers are out from wall, but not 6 feet into the room like Cardas or other methods recommend. Separates would offer me flexibility and a path to upgrade, but if I’m not happy, returns wouldn’t be as flexible or easy with multiple components. Not going to make the decision immediately.

Apologies for being a broken record. I realize this setup is small potatoes in a place like this, but it's a bigger deal for me. 

@213runnin Do you happen to know if the wireless internet in the Outlaw easily allows for streaming from a phone things like Tidal? I do a lot of listening thru that. 

@guy-incognito I'm leaning that direction. My only concern is setting up a way to stream things like Tidal over its wifi. It pretty much ticks all my boxes and looks classic. The separates route is still an option but I feel I might regret it at my price point. 

@213runnin I put in a ticket request with them too. They also have a driver for windows so you can run USB to unit and the DAC functions as the sound card. But yeah, with wifi capability, I hope there's a way to stream from phone for ease. 

Sounds like there may be some issues with Outlaws implementation of DLNA that prohibits lossless streaming both over wired and wireless connection. Kind of a big issue, but I'll try to ask them directly. 

@mesch I realize not all watts are created equal, and I imagine the Outlaw has clean power compared to my avr. I wonder if there will be a noticeable difference in headroom compared to my 95w Denon AVR-X2600H. Stereophiles measurements said Outlaw digital inputs weren't great. I'm sure there are going to be tradeoffs no matter which way I go. 

I think I’ve decided on budgeting a few more bucks and going this route:

1. miniDSP SHD - DAC, Dirac Live processor for well reviewed sub integration, crossovers, parametric EQ, streamer, balanced and RCA inputs and outputs. Promising high signal to noise measurements.
2. Monoprice Monolith 2x200 AB amp. - made by ATI with really solid measurements that should be a piece to last years and power anything I need.

Comes to about 2200. This is more than the 1500 budget, but it’s what I’m shooting for.

@perkadin My Denon does not have pre outs, unfortunately. Only the 3xxx series and up does. The cost of buying a new AVR and an amp would be just as much as something more dedicated like the SHD which has better DAC, better room correction, high signal to noise, etc..