Has anyone here tried an Athena with the Kinki EX-M7, or compared Athena to Kinki EX-P27?
Did this about a month ago. Brought my speakers, power amp and a dac around to the local dealer. I was looking for a preamp.
The dealer had a big and expensive pair of Wilsons. I brought in custom made speakers consisting of a 10 inch constant directivity horn with compression driver for the higher frequencies and a 10 inch driver for mid bass duties. These are high efficiency and flat to 40 Hz.
The main source was a Soundaware D300REF. The main dac was a Terminator Plus with Gaia.
Tried the Athena with the Apollo. Sound was ok, but lacked detail and depth. Recessed and dark.
Took out the Apollo and put in my 6CA7 amp. Sounded much better. Detailed, natural and good soundstage.
Took out my amp and put in an EX-M7. That sounded great. Everything was better. Big and deep soundstage, detailed, dynamic, meat on the bones and great bass. Real "you are there" stuff. Did not know my speakers could do that.
Took out the Athena and put in an EX-P27. Backward step. Not much better that the Athena with the Apollo.
We tried different dacs and speakers, as well as every combination of the two preamps and three power amps mentioned above. The clear and obvious winning combination was the Denafrips Athena with the Kinki Studios EX-M7.
I like the idea of matching equipment. I went in thinking the Athena would go with the Apollo and that the EX-P27 would go with the EX-M7. For me, it did not turn out that way. Hope this helps.
P.S. We listened to lots of different music that day. A big surprise for me was that "Here Comes The Sun" is a great recording. Sounded awesome. Guess you just need the right gear to notice.
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@dkerr
No I haven’t had any excess gain issue with the Supratek/Kinki combo. The Supratek has adjustable gain from 0-26db and I have it set at the halfway mark or about 13db.
If you're willing to look at an SS alternative I would recommend the W4S STP-SE Stage 2. |
@jackd
I've used the EX-M7 with both the Supratek Chardonnay via XLR and the Don Sachs Model 2 via RCA and had no problems with either. The problems that Srajen had when he tried both his Nagra and later his Vinnie Rossi preamps had to due with the type of tube regulated power supply they use. You should have no issues with your preamp. The EX-M7 is a single ended amp and the XLR inputs are strictly convenience. I use them so I don't have to swap cables out if I substitute in the BHK 250 which is fully balanced.
Thanks Jack, you were spot on. I received my new EX-M7 a couple of weeks ago and it has had no issues being paired with my Herron VTSP3 tube preamp. Fresh out of the box the M7 sounded promising but a little flat and stiff. From around 15 to 35 hours it started to sound better but there was some glare/hardness. Now at 48 hours the glare is gone and it is starting to sound seriously good. Dynamics and leading edges are so quick and snappy yet totally realistic. Strings, horns, pianos, vocals are all so utterly natural sounding, electric guitars are amazing. There is a wonderful purity and lifelikeness to everything. A natural warmth, weight, organicness, immediacy and vitality, even juiciness at times. Surprisingly (to me), I'm not missing my tube amp at all. I haven't reconnected my sub yet but the depth, weight, texture and growliness of bass is making it easy for me to wait until the EX-M7 is fully burned in before doing so. The combination is significantly better than the EX-M1 I had previously. The EX-M1 was impressive in ticking off the requirements on the audiophile list but couldn't quite get me to believe that I was listening to real music and to just relax and drink it in. This combo does that easily and consistently. My floorstanders are rated 93dB/8R (the same as your Otellos) and I still have a little too much gain overall. The DAC is 2.5v from SE output, the Herron VTSP-3 tube preamp is 8dB gain on the low gain setting, the EX-M7 is 26dB gain (tube amp was 29dB). Room is approx 440sq.ft and open to other rooms but even with Harrison Labs -12dB inline attenuators on the EX-M7 SE inputs, my loudest listening level is typically between 35 and 45 (out of 100). I would love to hear the Athena (unity gain) with the EX-M7 in this system as it would drop the overall gain and its fully balanced design would enable me to use my Spring DAC's balanced outputs (which Spring owners claim sound better). As the VTSP-3 is quite neutral and non-tubey sounding anyway, I probably wouldn't lose any "tube sound" but the lower noise floor may improve details, dynamics and immediacy even further. Has anyone here tried an Athena with the Kinki EX-M7, or compared Athena to Kinki EX-P27? Jack, do you have any excess gain issues with the EX-M7 and your Otellos? |
Do you think are there any changes between version EX-M1 and EX-M1+ in the sound? |
I love my new Kinki Studio EX-M1+ I have version 2021 in black it sounds awesome :) |
I’ll go out of my way to mention how good this combo sounds on vinyl. Count Basie and the Kansas City Seven, I Want a Little Girl is pretty damn nice, especially Basie’s organ. Randy Weston, Blue Moses is terrific. This is on a well sorted, modest vinyl rig. VPI Traveler w/the 10” arm, Dynavector 20XL, Bob’s Sky, Eat Glo Petite.
‘What the Denafrips combo brings is a natural timber and spaciousness. Serious dynamics and PRAT that gives everything its own place and location, yet tight and punchy. Thru modest speakers, to my ears, this is a terrific combo, way better than my tube amps or the Yamaha integrated was capable of, there’s just such a richness and density of tone. Effortless, dynamic, relaxed, liquid, yet wide open, deep, robust. It’s not really a fireworks show but really encourages longer listening sessions. It’s more of a joy ride than a thrill ride, but it can keep you glued to your seat. |
Just an update on the Hyperion and Athena preamp. This has been a really nice combo on several sets of speakers. The Zu DW’s just gobble up the combo and the combo does jazz, rock, blues, folk and grunge with aplomb. More surprisingly to me has been how a pr, of ProAc 1sc thrive with the pairing. Really, these guys will make one rethink using tubes in a system. Initially I thought the pairing too ‘dark’, but something happened. Now it’s a really great combo. I’m not sure if adding the Rel T9i or a solid 4 months of break n’, but just, wow! Everything is done with such conviction, energy, and propulsion you can’t help but be pulled into a connection with the music. The system has fleshy, colorful, textured, mids in a way a bunch of lit bottles are usually required to provide. There’s meat on the bones of the musicians. Visceral and quite addictive, I’ve attempted to roll back in my tube amp, but I keep coming back. This setup is both beauty and beast. Hyperion and Athena does everything well, which really makes it fun. Fronted by a Benchmark Dac3 HGC it got depth, drive, dynamics and detail out the ying/yang. Vinyl/tape fed thru the HGC’s analog input sound terrific also. I can see how this could make a guy give up tubes. There’s plenty of resolution and it’s all in the right places. There is a dimensionality and richness along with authority down low. Cymbals and vibes sound great to, lots of shimmer, bite, and decay. This would be a terrific combo with the new Soul 6, which I can’t afford. At some point I need to try one of the Denafrips dacs, but why, when this is so darn good? |
@dkerr
I've used the EX-M7 with both the Supratek Chardonnay via XLR and the Don Sachs Model 2 via RCA and had no problems with either. The problems that Srajen had when he tried both his Nagra and later his Vinnie Rossi preamps had to due with the type of tube regulated power supply they use. You should have no issues with your preamp. The EX-M7 is a single ended amp and the XLR inputs are strictly convenience. I use them so I don't have to swap cables out if I substitute in the BHK 250 which is fully balanced. |
@jackd
The Verity's are driven by either the BHK 250 or the Kinki EX-M7 with the Supratek Chardonnay.
I noticed that, due to their amps being direct DC coupled, Kinki advise against using their power amps with tube preamps as DC offset could cause tics or pops through the speakers or even burn out voice coils. Did you have any issues feeding the EX-M7 with the Supratek Chardonnay? I'm not sure if it matters but are you using SE or balanced cables betwen them? I can't find any reviews or listening impressions where the EX-M7 (or B-7 monoblocks) have been fed by a tube pre-amp. I was hoping to feed my Herron VTSP3 tube preamp into an EX-M7 rather than go all solid state ... but now I'm a little apprehensive. |
Finally, a manufacturer that bridges dac to amp with a unity gain design optimizes both impedance and voltage relationships. The unity gain steps down the voltage and the voltage regulators are an essential function of the preamps. The systems voicing has been carefully considered and designed for. Dropping in a wildcard component will have unpredictable consequences. Many audiophiles go thru myriad system configurations and never fully understand what or why, what effects what. Play around with moving coil cartridges and SUT’s feeding into adjustable phono stages and one will get the idea of how complex and inter-related the system chain really is. There are 100 ways to get it wrong, that’s the fun and the education. Bottomless, always something else to learn. By adding a sub into my system it is much easier to hear which output tap is optimal on a tube amp, in fact it changed my preference. I’m certainly not saying the Denafrips products are end game but like Kinki, offer a high value, low relative cost, solution if the more organic sound of what tubes offer, is desirable in a ss configuration. Of course speaker matching, source, ect. are still ‘make or break’, but if one wants to explore and play a bit on the ‘dark side’, the Denafrips product catalog is fully fleshed and well thought out with all the goodies at attainable, every guy/gal, pricing. The niche they fill, they fill very well. What your ‘absolute sound’ is, is for you to decide. It is a hobby after all.
Here’s a final bit on the importance of voltage…
“If you think of your preamp as a source, and your power amp as a load, then you may consider that maximum power transfer can occur when the output impedance of the preamp matches the input impedance of the power amp. However, in high fidelity audio, it is typically considered optimum to have a source with low impedance connected to a load with high impedance. In that case, the power that can pass through the connection is limited by the higher impedance (so power transfer is not maximum), but the electrical voltage transfer is higher and less prone to corruption than if the impedances had been matched.”
To which almarg replies, “I'll just add a little emphasis to your mention in the first paragraph that power transfer is completely unimportant between preamp and power amp, as well as for any other line-level interfaces. What matters is transferring the signal VOLTAGE accurately”
Denafrips knows what function they need their preamps to provide to their amplifiers. Unity gain, a constant, considered, regulated voltage to impart the optimal audio signal and attain their desired voicing performance, would suggest they don’t wish or require excessive voltage gain at the amps input. If I connect the Benchmark Dac3 direct with 0 attenuation, I can begin to introduce a touch of distortion, a slight ‘digital glare’ that is why Benchmark usually suggest the 10 or 20db pads that yes changes the output impedance, but more important into the 22000k Hyperion, it’s 4V input voltage.
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Ie… “When matching preamps to power amps, a general rule of thumb is for the load (amp) input impedance to be at least 10 times higher than the source (preamp) output impedance to provide a suitably flat frequency response. Many prefer using a minimum ratio closer to 20 to 1, or having an amp with input impedance 20 times or more greater than the preamp output impedance.
With solid state preamps, this is generally not a problem since most have output impedance of only a few hundred ohms or less, while most SS amps have input impedance of at least 10K ohms. However, you must pay much closer attention when trying to match tubed preamps to SS amps, since many tubed preamps have an output impedance of several thousand ohms or greater. Another thing to watch is how the output impedance spec is reported, since it is sometimes limited to a measurement at a given frequency such as 1K Hz, while the actual output impedance may vary with frequency. It is not unusual for the output impedance of tubed preamps to rise significantly as the signal approaches a lower frequency of 20 Hz, because of the size of coupling capacitors used in the preamp. In these cases, a low frequency roll off can occur whereby, for the same power output, the lower frequencies drop in output compared to the rest of the frequency range, resulting in a loss of deep bass.
The good news is that most tubed amps have sufficiently high input impedance to allow the use of most preamps, tubed or SS. Also, for SS power amps, input impedances of around 50K ohms and above are common and these amps should work well with the vast majority of tubed and SS preamps.
Only a couple of manufacturers make SS amps with input impedances of 10K ohms (e.g., McCormack DNA500), and a couple (such as Pass) make SS amps with input impedance of 20K ohms. These lower impedance amps would require careful matching with tubed preamps. If you are trying to match a preamp with one of these lower input impedance amps, you should try to find information on your preamp's output impedance throughout the entire frequency range. Some manufacturer's report this information and some do not.” |
sns, perhaps the 500k output impedance figure is NOT throughout the entire frequency band, but a single measurement. Pretty common with tube preamps and yours is definitely unique. I have no idea however as to why such would only present itself with the Hyperion amp and not other ss amps. Regardless, your attempts show it was not a reasonable match. |
sns, it’s all good. That’s a nice, unique pre, you have there. Nice selection of amps also. I’ve a friend with Khorns but he runs a 6wpc Set. Hyperion sounds voiced more like an ADS speaker than a Klipsch. Late 80’s sealed box vs horns. More Harbeth than ProAc. Thinking thru the Denafrips/Kinki voicing differences compare Teflon base 6sn7 Black Treasures vs the gold metal based Psvane CV181-T. Traditional vs modern tube sound. The Teflon’s all about the mids and tonal richness, the metals emphasize airy, incisive treble energy. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that mixing tubes into the mix of either brand is not optimal. Here’s an interesting take on the Denafrips ‘sister’ brand Musician preamp… https://soundnews.net/accessories/musician-monoceros-preamplifier-review-the-final-frontier-for-your... |
@regismc , based on specs Statement linestage should be fine match to Hyperion. Statement output impedance 500 ohms, Hestia 400 ohms, Hyperion input impedance 22k, both well matched based on amp input at least 10x higher than pre out. This is by far the most important spec for pre to amp matching.
Output to input sensitivity of Statement to Hyperion is also close to other amps I use with Statement, Coincident Turbo 1v, PL Dialogue Four 880mv, Hyperion 1.8v, Hestia does have much lower output voltage than Statement. Still, I didn't have to run Statement at extremely low range of volume selectors, yes, a bit lower than other amps, Also, the Statement doesn't use volume potentiometers, transformer based volume control doesn't have favored portion of range. Therefore, Hyperion was used within parameters that would allow it to perform at it's highest potential. I stated how I used Hyperion and how it performed in my system, I stand by my comments. As to how it will perform in other systems, I can't say.
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Just another note as this thread and much of audiophile searching in the wilderness is about achieving the elusive ‘perfect voicing’ of ones system.
The critical focus put upon a preamp to mediate source to power.
sns seems to have a Coincident 101D preamp.
Here r the mfg specs…
Specifications
Type: Vacuum tube stereo linestage
Frequency Response: 10 Hz to 30 kHz (+/- 0.2dB)
Gain: 20dB
Output Impedance: 500 Ohms
Output Voltage: Greater than 30V
Features: Dual Mono Transformer Coupled Volume Pots
Inputs: Balanced inputs via XLR and unbalanced via RCA
Outputs: Two pairs of RCA outputs for bi-amp'ing;
One pair of balanced outputs on XLR
AC ground lift permits AC ground lift to eliminate hum caused by ground loops.
Dimensions: 203 x 260 x 390 (HxWxD in mm)
Weight: Power supply is 40.7 lbs. and linestage is 30.8 lbs.
AC Voltage: User selectable- 115v, 230V
Price: $4999
So a question. What do you think, >than 30V sounds like, on an amp looking for 4V input? Based on my limited messing around with voltage variance into the Hyperion, I would suggest you hear more of the flavor of what is input. GIGO.
Though voiced slightly to the organic side of neutral, there is no way Hyperion performs as described above. The thing has balls and a ‘bit’ of colour. My experience is that music has soul in a Denafrips system, one feels the heartbeat of the music, not as an intellectual exercise. It’s liquid not clinical. The voltage regulated preamps preamps pass what they r fed and even the BHK appears to output 4V through its balanced outs, which is perfect for the Hyperion.
Audiophiles seems to attempt a lot of crappy system matching and then blame it on components. The Denafrips are much more mainstream components with the advantages of ss and a beautiful midrange. They are not veiled, overly dark, or slow. They have authority and time like a 50k stack of Naim gear… |
@jackd
As to the issue of the M7 and tube preamps. I didn't really think the match with the BHK was bad just didn't have the warmth and magic that the pairing with the two 6SN7 preamps have. Though the BHK has some degree of the tube feel and more so with the 12 volt tubes it's not at all like what you get from a 6SN7 preamp. I do think the M7 is a great amp on it's own but it will not and does not sound like a tube amp. It is neutral and honest. The closest thing to it that I have owned was the JOB 225. What you put in was what you got out. My BHK 250 and AVA SET 400 are far "warmer". So how the pairing of your preamp and the M7 would go would depend mostly on where on the warmth scale your preamp is.
Thanks Jack. The Herron VTSP-3 (6 x 6922's) is pretty neutral and low noise for a valve pre. Probably less tubey sounding than 6SN7 based preamps. It is not at all syrupy, sweet, lush, soft etc but has excellent transparency, detail, body, dynamics and organicness. The Rogue Stereo 100 (4 x KT120's) is also pretty neutral for a tube amp with big dynamic but controlled bass, wonderful 3D imaging and dimensionality, the walls just disappear, so human and organic sounding. Cranked up Money For Nothing yesterday and the growling electric guitar and big opening drums were just awesome. Such natural tone and body. I (mostly) loved the original EX-M1 except for way too much gain, a slight unnatural stiffness or overdamped characteristic that I couldn't listen around, and a slight lack of body and organicness/humanity. But I did love the EX-M1's detail, dynamics, immediacy, resolution and liveliness, all presented in a smooth, refined manner. If it had a touch more organicness, humanity, body (and not the strange stiffness) then I would have sold the tube gear and reduced the number of boxes and cables in my system. That's why I'm contemplating whether the blend of my tube preamp and the EX-M7 would get me my ideal tonal balance (what I have now but moved just a touch more toward the fast/exciting end from the full-bodied/relaxed end of the spectrum). The other option would be to blend a sligthly sunnier preamp with the Rogue tube amp but then I can't explain to my wife that the new equipment is to get the power amp off the top of the cabinet and into a shelf so that she can put whatever photos, knick knacks and ornaments she likes on top of the cabinet :-) |
The Kinki EX-M1 is awesome. Great amplifier with loads of power, extremely black background and great imaging. I’m very happy with mine! |
@dkerr
I have both the original M1 and the current M1+ with the new volume control that rectifies the high gain issue completely and appears from memory to be a slight bit warmer than the original but that could just be a perception from having more flexibility with the volume control.
As to the issue of the M7 and tube preamps. I didn't really think the match with the BHK was bad just didn't have the warmth and magic that the pairing with the two 6SN7 preamps have. Though the BHK has some degree of the tube feel and more so with the 12 volt tubes it's not at all like what you get from a 6SN7 preamp. I do think the M7 is a great amp on it's own but it will not and does not sound like a tube amp. It is neutral and honest. The closest thing to it that I have owned was the JOB 225. What you put in was what you got out. My BHK 250 and AVA SET 400 are far "warmer". So how the pairing of your preamp and the M7 would go would depend mostly on where on the warmth scale your preamp is. |
So much information to sort thru here. May as well add to the fog.
1st let me say I really, like the ‘unity gain’ style of preamps. I like the simplicity, the feel, and the quality. Being fed by a Benchmark Dac3 HGC, I’ve run direct, 0,10, and 20 db attenuation, into the Hyperion & thru the Hestia/Athena. I have both.
I find the Denafrips transparent to the source voiced primarily around depth, tone, and dynamics. They have a certain gravitas and plenty of ‘drive’, particularly in their size/price catagory. The voicing may be in regards to the class A biasing. The case can be made that they are unique exquisitely mfg products.
I run Roon thru a Nuc filtered thru a top end Audio Magic conditioner I’ve modded with Jupiter copper caps on the receptacles. I’ve 3 dedicated circuits w/10g wiring, & spent a lot of time rolling caps thru the filter stages, Jupiter’s, Cu V-Caps, Duelands, Mundorf SGO, ect… So I would say that my digital source preference is shaded to what the Jupiter caps bring to the table.
My room is big, 800-1200 sf. and I’ve rolled at least 9 pr. of speakers thru the room, but currently live with the Zu DW’s with (of course) Jupiter caps. Let’s leave the analog, tape and tubes aside for now.
The voltage input of the Dac3 does effect the voicing of the system, in general the lower the voltage input the more perceived warmth with or without the preamps. The less voltage the less attack, or leading edge.
Dac direct, at full output, you can introduce a touch of the dreaded digital glare. Just a touch.
I understand and have experienced the perceived warmth of the Denafrips voicing as relates to digital and have found it to more naturally align with my analog sources. Both cassette and vinyl sounded more at home with the Denafrip amps, until…
I brought in a subwoofer to properly ‘load the room’. I’ve a very good upper corner placement that has enabled a Rel T9i to bring in the 30-40hz and ‘what do you know’, everything has just fallen in place. My room now sounds the best I’ve attained in over 20+ years of playing around, with tubes and power supplies and speakers, and preamps, ect…
i luv my Hyperion/Hestia. (-;
Now if I could just find the order of tubes for the downstairs system that DHL says was delivered yesterday.
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@jackd
Just wondering how much better your BHK/EX-M7 and Chardonnay/EX-M7 combos sounded than your EX-M1 and in what ways?
A while back I tried to downsize my tube pre/tube amp combo to the EX-M1 (original) but although the EX-M1 was very impressive with low noise floor, dynamics, detail, speed, smoothness, PRaT etc, I just wanted a touch more palpability, organic-ness and ended up selling the EX-M1. Also the EX-M1 had way too much gain, even on low gain setting.
I’m now thinking the EX-M7 with my tube pre-amp might get me to where I want to be. Or, if I need to lose more gain, the Athena and EX-M7.
Also, I can’t find how much gain the EX-M7 has, do you know?
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@jwlaudio
One way around it once you figure out the "sweet spot" volume for each source is to mute before changing the volume level then un-mute. Anyway even though it doesn't have all the remote conveniences and input options of the BHK I much prefer the sound and lack of quirks with the Supratek Chardonnay at a far lower price. Same is true of the Don Sachs preamp. |
@jackd
Thank you. I have 4 amps, all with SE inputs so if that volume control is unbearable, I guess I'll have to think about returning it. I do use the volume control often since I use this system from multiple sources. I really hope that it works out for me though. I've been hearing such good things about this BHK Pre. |
@jwlaudio
Not sure but something in the way Bascom designed the volume control circuit. Just know that between a friend and I we tried three different units and almost a dozen SE amps. If it causes a problem at least you have the 30 day return. |
@jackd
Thanks for that. Why do you think this is the case? I have thought about buying an XLR to RCA that boosts the voltage a little bit so I can use the balanced interconnects. If I build another Nelson Amp Camp Amp, I could have an amp with balanced outputs in dual mono configuration, but the F8 and this Yamaha is noticeably better, at least to my ears. I hope they send me new tubes, PS Audio is building my BHK pre right now, so at least the unit is new production. It's been like 3 weeks already, hopefully they will finish building it and send it out to me soon. |
@jwlaudio
If all of those new amps in your stable are all single ended you may be disappointed with the BHK preamp. Both myself and several friends found that when run single ended the volume control makes a great deal of noise when used in either direction. The only way to mitigate it at all is to have fully gain and triode matched 12AU7 tubes which pretty much limits you to new production. I had no luck at all with 6 or 7 volt tubes over the four years I owned mine and found it's best mate to be the BHK amp and I tried many. |
@arafiq I've been experimenting with some different gear lately in my second system. I picked up a Kinki EX-M1+ last week, and I must say my experience is almost the same as yours. It is a good competent amp and does all the 'modern' tricks of neutrality, detail, dynamics, etc. quite well. But just like you, I can't help but feel that something is amiss. I'm impressed but not moved. I have been helping a family friend build his system based around tube amps. We bought a used VTL I-85 and it is an excellent amp. I'm so impressed that I'm thinking of buying one for myself now. It's not 'modern' sounding per se but it draws you into the music in a way that Kinki can never even dream of.
Funnily enough, the guy that bought the EX-M1 from me preferred it to his VTL ST-150 & modded Audionote M3 combo and sold them. Different strokes ... |
@sns Wow, thanks so much for the detailed response. It provides great context and much for me to think about. I've never heard a First Watt amp class A amp but can't go for a class A amp given that one of the justifications for a new amp is that it will fit inside my low profile cabinet (shelves are only about 8" high). I had a big Plinius SA100 mk3 many years ago and liked it but it seemed to have a slight haze that masked detail.
based on your stated sound preferences, I'm not sure any ss will deliver the full measure on those.
That thought has been in the back of my mind too. But the Kinki EX-M1 integrated came VERY close to dislodging my tube preamp AND tube amp. A different sound ... more dynamic, punchy, detailed (but smooth and not bright or aggressive), robust, exciting ... but I wanted for just a touch more organicness, palpability, harmonic completeness ... I love tone more than hyper detail. Overall my system is fairly neutral but just a little closer to the "full bodied and relaxing" end than the "faster and exciting" end. I want to move it slightly toward the faster and exciting side but without any brightness, glare, leanness or analytical sound. Maybe my tube pre with say the Kinki M7 would achieve this ... and get the amp inside the cabinet ... the M7's input sensitivity of 1.45v (as opposed to my Rogue's 1.0v) would help with the gain issue (the Rogue has 29dB gain, I'm unsure of the M7). This setup still wouldn't enable me to use balanced out from the Spring DAC but maybe I could live with this given the potential benefit from the M7 *IF* it doesn't have the truncated harmonics (for want of a better description) that I heard in the EX-M1 integrated. |
@dkerr For amps I have Coincident Turbo 845SET,Art Audio Carissa Signature 845SET, custom built 300B SET monoblocks, Prima Luna Dialogue Four (modded with Takman resistors and Miflex and Mundorf capacitors, use exclusively with EL34 these days), Coincident Statement line stage, Klipschorns (extensively modded, only bass enclosure stock).
I also had Musical Fidelity M2si ss integrated amp in for audition at same time as Hyperion, MF sound signature light and lively compared to Hyperion. All my amps more modern sound SET in nature, not rolled off on top, tight bass. Klipschorns, and all Klipsch generally thought of as bright speakers, mine far more refined, but definitely not dark.
I really dislike criticizing equipment, but I have to say, Hyperion had perhaps the most apparent sound signature I've ever encountered in an amp. I've also been through many other push pull tube and class A ss amps over many years, none, with perhaps a Conrad Johnson MV-55 were quite this tilted towards the warm. It wasn't just the sound signature that bothered me, it didn't resolve very well either, smaller soundstage, less dimensional imaging, obscured lower level details. I actually thought the amp broken or no burn in at first. Both were accounted for, no issues here. For what its worth, guy I purchased from had perhaps seven, eight amps in house, this was the only one selling, and he didn't keep long.
The only way I could see Hyperion working is in extremely up tilted system and/or for someone who enjoys warm syrupy sound. For context, In spite of my preference for SET tube amps I prefer slightly to the analytical side of neutral, Hyperion on far end of warm in my system and for my ears.
I've recommended the MF2si any number of times to those seeking a nice sweet sounding ss integrated. Don't let the $1k price fool you, relatively low powered ss has always worked best for me. I'd for sure check into the First Watt, would be my first choice for low powered ss, many flavors available Still, based on your stated sound preferences, I'm not sure any ss will deliver the full measure on those.
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So after I started this post I went bonkers. I now have the First Watt F8, a Yamaha B-2 (Vfet), built the Nelson Pass Amp Camp Amp and have a BHK Pre on order. I have to say the F8 and the B-2 are amazing amps. Comparing the characteristics of these amps vs the $100 Class D SMSL SA 300 that I also have, I learned that I really enjoy the forward midrange presentation... or vocals that are more forward, if that's what forward midrange presentation means. I'm still very curious about the kinki and denafrips offerings but need to calm down on the spending. |
@sns
The extreme darkness, closed in voicing of Hyperion leads me to believe company doesn't voice their products towards the neutral.
After everything I've read on the Hestia/Hyperion/Athena, I don't think that there is any doubt that these units are all more full bodied than the Kinki gear which is (comparatively) cooler/leaner/quicker and more overtly detailed. Srajan, who prefers the
cooler/leaner/quicker "Swiss" sound, makes this point in his comparisons but notes that the delta is small and that his preference would depend on which speakers were in use or even how lively the room was, that it was a case of fine tuning. His testing of the Hestia and Hyperion together indicates that they are both similarly voiced (and the Terminator too) but he doesn't seem to indicate that even using them together takes these traits too far. Obviously it also comes down to personal taste as well but I think that you are the first person I've seen to go so far as to use
"extreme darkness and closed in" to describe the Hyperion. I do prefer a touch of warmth, full bodied-ness and organicness to overtly detailed, lean or analytical but extreme darkness makes me think twice about purchasing a Denafrips preamp or amp. Can I ask what amp(s) you compared in that system that made the Hyperion sound extremely dark and closed in? And the speakers used? |
@dkerr -- I've been experimenting with some different gear lately in my second system. I picked up a Kinki EX-M1+ last week, and I must say my experience is almost the same as yours. It is a good competent amp and does all the 'modern' tricks of neutrality, detail, dynamics, etc. quite well. But just like you, I can't help but feel that something is amiss. I'm impressed but not moved.
I have been helping a family friend build his system based around tube amps. We bought a used VTL I-85 and it is an excellent amp. I'm so impressed that I'm thinking of buying one for myself now. It's not 'modern' sounding per se but it draws you into the music in a way that Kinki can never even dream of. |
While I can't say anything specifically in regard to Athena, my experience with Hyperion leaves me skeptical that any Denafrips product would be to my liking. The extreme darkness, closed in voicing of Hyperion leads me to believe company doesn't voice their products towards the neutral. Perhaps they balance out end sound signature with darkness in one component, lightness in other, not my cup of tea. I want all my components voice towards the neutral, I can flavor myself.
I also hear this overly warm characterization from some Denafrips Terminator users. Seems the new + series has improved greatly upon this. Perhaps the Athena will reflect this new voicing at Denafrips, in which case it may work well for you.
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@regismc & @jackd
Very interesting reading your comments/experiences on the Kinki and Denafrips gear as I'm considering heading that way.
I'm currently running Auralic G1 > Holo Spring L2 > Herron VTSP-3 > Rogue Stereo 100 > Silverline Sonata III floorstanders (8ohms, 93 dB sensitivity) & Rythmik sealed sub.
Sound is excellent but a few factors are driving me toward some changes: wifey doesn't like the big Rogue sitting on top of the hifi cabinet, the Herron is only single ended but the Spring DAC is best from its balanced outputs and the Rogue is best via its balanced inputs, there is too much gain in the system, I want to try something new. Room is 19' x 22' x 8' and acoustically treated.
My preferred sound is reasonably neutral and "in the middle", not fast/lean/ultra detailed/analytical and not overtly tubey/schmaltzy/euphonic etc. Even though the Herron and Rogue are both tubed, neither is particularly tubey sounding.
In an attempt to downsize last year I tried a Kinki EX-M1 integrated for a while and loved its low noise floor, dynamics, detail and PRaT but it lacked a touch of warmth (partially alleviated by discrete opamps) and there was something in the sound that I couldn't quite live with. Somehow it seemed excessively damped like harmonics were being truncated (sorry if that doesn't make sense but I'm not sure how to properly explain what I heard/sensed) and there was way too much gain, even on the low gain setting. As much as I loved 99% of what it did, something in my subconscious kept telling me that there was something very slightly unnatural about its portrayal. I don't know if this issue stemmed from the pre-amp or power amp section of the EX-M1 (there was no pre-out to test on another amp) so I had to sell it and my subconscious was then able to fully relax again and enjoy the music with my tube gear again.
I'm thinking that step one may be to replace the single ended Herron with the Denafrips Athena which is unity gain and fully balanced (allowing me to get max performance from my current DAC and amp) with a slightly warm and full bodied persona that might maintain much of the sound qualities I get from the Herron tube preamp, and with a lower noise floor that may convey more detail and dynamics.
Step 2 would be the power amp. Once the Athena was bedded I'd know whether I needed to go for an amp that is slightly faster/leaner (Kinki EX-M7 if it doesn't have the same issue I heard with the EX-M1) or slightly more full bodied (Denafrips Thallo). Either of these amps would fit in my cabinet with 2 or 3 inches space above for ventilation (the back of the cabinet is also open).
I would try to get loaners to try out in my system but I'd be very grateful for your thoughts on whether you feel this strategy makes sense given my stated goals/preferences.
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It's for if you have a ground loop which with that combo is likely. Like I said if you are plugging the components into a conditioner that itself is grounded then that will be fine. If the problem does occur try the cheater on the preamp first. Not the end of the world if you like the sound from the combo. The BHK only has about 4db gain from the SE outputs so you still may borderline on gain. |
@jackd
I take it "lifting the ground" removes noise? Worst case I can just return the BHK Pre, or sell the F8 and buy the BHK 250, I guess.... hopefully I don't run into too many quirks.
Thanks for this info, I know what to expect.
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@jwlaudio
By lifting the ground I mean using a cheater plug preferably on the preamp and if you are plugging into a grounded conditioner it won’t make a difference anyway.
In the 3+ years I owned the BHK I tried it with the following amps all from memory. Mystere PA-11, Music Reference RM-10, Granite Audio 861 mono’s, Nuforce STA-200, Nord One, Nuprime ST-10, Mivera Purepower, Odyssey Kismet, Kinki EX-M7 and the BHK 250. The best match was obviously the BHK which I still have and swap in and out with the EX-M7.
Sticking with the stock tubes or the Gold Lions is a good place to stay as finding NOS as quiet will be hard and expensive in most cases. When you get the preamp I would suggest you take the tubes out and re-seat them after their ride with FedEx.
As to the cables for a start use what you have especially if you don't have a long distance to run or noise issues. |
@jackd
Thank you for the info. What does "lift the ground up" mean? I've read about all the quirks of this preamp, but it seemed to be a trade off people were willing to deal with because it improved their sound.
I was looking into the Decware zbit to increase the voltage to my F8 because right now with the DAC controlling the volume, I can max it out and it's loud, but nothing too crazy. I'm just not used to having my volume at 75 to 90% all the time.
I don't plan on tube rolling any time soon, so I'll have to cross that bridge when the time comes.
Like you mentioned, since the F8 is SE, I've wondered if it's worth connecting everything else with XLR.
What amp have you matched the BHK Pre with? Do you have an experience with mating it to the BHK 250?
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@jwlaudio
Just a bit of info that may or may not be important to you from an owner of the BHK preamplifier for over three years. As the F8 is a single ended amp and the BHK is fully balanced you are likely to run into two small issues. One is you are likely going to half to lift the ground on either the amp or the preamp and secondly the BHK preamps in general are not fond of SE amp connections as it tends to cause an increased level of clicking with their unusual volume control. I tried mine with well over a half dozen SE amps and the increased clicking occurred with each one. A friend tried two different samples of the BHK and ran into the same issues and this includes SE amps with convenience XLR connectors. Another issue that may limit your tube choices is that the BHK needs input tube with matched triodes to keep the volume control noise in check which is much harder and more expensive to find in NOS variants than in new production tubes. But in the end if you have an amp that the BHK "likes" then it is a very solid choice. |
@jwlaudio that's great I've heard First Watt amps a few times at shows always sounding great you basically can't go wrong with a Nelson Pass amp. And a tube pre and great SS amp is a fantastic combo for many listeners. And yes those class A amps do need extra ventilation get it away from that thermostat lol!
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@jond
I didn't know you cared! hahaha
I ended up with a First Watt F8 (Picked up 30mins from me =) and I was able to get a 30% discount on a new PS Audio BHK Preamplifier. I found out about the PS Audio sale after I bought the First Watt F8. I could have ended up with the PS Audio BHK 250 + BHK Pre, for about $1k more. The BHK Pre is getting built right now, so we'll see how it sounds. So far, the First Watt F8 is getting better and better as it burns/breaks in... it is also on the bottom shelf, but near my thermostat and my place is freezing in every room when it's on. This amp runs HOT! lol
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@jwlaudio don't just leave us hanging what did you get?
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@mboldda1 - Thank you. It was nice to read about something else besides what all the reviewers are taking turns reviewing.
I've decided to go another direction due to a sale that brought an item down into my price range. I wish I would have seen the sale sooner, but oh well, I learned a lot during that time.
Thanks everyone!
jwlaudio |
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@regismc and @sns
Thanks for the feedback. These Kilpsch are currently my speakers but I will probably venture out into other makes and models in the future. As you mentioned, the Decware will probably drive these pretty well. I've watched reviews about some of the models you mentioned and I was considering them as well. I don't mind spending a little more now if I can future proof, if that is even possible. With all the "synergy" talk with components, I know it will be difficult. I guess part of the fun is upgrading and trying new things. At one point, I thought about building those Pass Labs Amp Camp Amps to get a taste of that sound before I spend too much.
@mboldda1 I've never heard of those Norma amps before. I'm going to have to check those out as well. |
jwlaudio, you're on the right track with Decware amp. I used the Hyperion with my modded Klipschorns, not a good match. I'd stay with tube amp for Klipsch. And you don't need that much power anyway, if you want ss amp try the Musical Fidelity M2si, now that is a sweet sounding ss amp for Klipsch, won't break the bank.
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Hell even better, pick up the Rotel Tribute integrated and settle in for a few months. $800 bucks I think. They sound really nice and even do Bluetooth. I own the matching CD player and like it very much… |
jwlaudio
Anything Klipsch will not need the kind of power or sophistication you r considering. The Decware will serve u well, when it arrives. If it were me, and I’m biased cause I own the stuff, I’d buy the entry Hestia/Hyperion and settle in. Will take about two weeks to get to your doorstep and won’t break the bank. Good luck… |
regismc,
I'll be mating this amp with the Klipsch RP-600M, but I see an upgrade in the near future, possibly the Heresy IVs. I ordered a Decware tube amp, but it's still like a half a year out, if not more. I've been hesitant on the BHK 250, not only because it ups the price so much, but also because I'll have a tube amp coming sooner or later, I was planning on adding a full solid state amp to the collection.
jwlaudio |
