Jazz for aficionados

FYI, Blacknuss is wonderful no matter what you call it.

orpheus10 I would like to know what you think of the quintets Shelly Manne put together for the Blackhawk live recordings. The music itself and the recording quality. 

Do any of the other members here have the 4cd set besides me?

Do you think Mr. Kirk and Sun Ra are related, or just from Saturn?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ2ZfJ1ww9I

Pjw, I do not have that set, but I do have vol. 1,2,3, and 5 on Tidal. I will give it a listen tonight and get back with you. 

I don't know if they are related but I just ordered Blacknuss on CD after listening to samples on Amazon!

acman3, I really love those Shelly Manne Blackhawk sessions. IMHO  the musicians really gelled and played off one another perfectly. The songs have so much of a "cool vibe" I listen to that set at least once a month!

I just checked Amazon for the 4 CD box set I have and its not to be found. However, there was an import for sale titled "Shelly Manne And His Men Complete Live At The Blackhawk" which has 1 disc so is obviously not "complete" I guess the set I purchased many years ago is out of print. However, as some of you probably know, Amazon puts reviews of multiple printings of the same title together and I saw this following review (the reviewer obviously has the same set as me) which sums up everything I feel about these sessions:

Four discs-70,70,67,71 minutes each approximately. The sound is as good as the latest individual releases. The bass is where it should be,the piano isn't shrill sounding,the horns have presence,and the drums are clean and crisp without being overstated. This set contains ALL the known music recorded at this time/venue by this group,and is presented in chronological order of playing. The booklet is very informative-reproducing the four individual liner notes from the original releases (except the portion from Vol. 3,which has the "origin of jazz" paragraphs,not pertaining to this band,deleted),and the original "DOWNBEAT MAGAZINE" review,along with several photographs of the band members. Don't go by the AMAZON track listing as to what is on what disc-its INCORRECT.

These recordings,arguably,represent the epitome of the "West Coast sound" of jazz in the 50's,and perhaps beyond. For anyone wishing to hear some of the finest jazz from this,or any era,no matter what the locale,this will fit the bill nicely. Why this set isn't listed as a perennial jazz favorite/purchase on Amazon,much like some of Miles Davis' and Coltrane's recordings is a mystery to me. This music transcends enjoyable listening,and enters the realm of essential listening. This group-Shelly Manne-drums,Joe Gordon-trumpet,Victor Feldman-piano,Richie Kamuca-tenor sax,and Monty Budwig-bass,together have recorded some of the finest,most swinging,straight-ahead jazz in history.

By now most jazz listeners are familiar with these recordings,so pointing out highlights is useless. Suffice to say that this music,even the (at the time) previously unissued tracks,are all of equal worth. If for some reason you haven't heard this music (or have heard only snippets),this set needs to go on your short-list of jazz sets to purchase,and I envy you on your first hearing this music.

Sonny Criss

jb0194

I have long been a fan of Kenny Dorham and have many lps and cds where he either was the leader or sideman. He did have a clear beautiful tone and was very creative improvisational style. He is largely forgotten and deserves mention. I was listening to "Quiet Kenny" recently ,  a nice mellow album.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TNT3Df5nUto

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lVMfJPSbMZs

pjw

Shelly Manne is one of my favorite drummers. Unique individual style  and great bandleader. I have about 20 or so recordings of his.
I have the complete "AT The Blackhawk" recordings on individual lps for quite some time. I located 4 lps but there may be a 5th which is not where it should be in my inventory. For sure the "West Coast" sound , a very tight band with top notch soloists. I also recommend "At The Mannehole" a 2-fer live with Kamuca on sax, C Candoli -trumpet , Russ Freeman -piano.

There are five cd’s in that ’series’, fifth beeing issued later, with some unreleased recordings. Great music, we mentioned it here before, but its always good to point on great albums. Also we have mentioned the albums of individuals who played there, Kamuca, Gordon, etc...

In case somebody likes it, there are also two albums of Shelly Manne and his men, live at the Manne Hole.
Great music too, perhaps not quite on the level as previosly mentioned editions, but still...

https://youtu.be/yO7n-sOj2WI

https://youtu.be/0KsxRIrDefA

Now I sew that Nsp mentioned the same albums...it dont mind, there are clips now as well.
Victor Feldman, pianist on the SM Blackhawk albums, posted some of his albums, gone unnoticed, will use the opportunity to do it again...

https://youtu.be/J1gyMu7CM50

https://youtu.be/-FGAJSHMSek

https://youtu.be/LLwvdv5oWVw

https://youtu.be/sW6VXAxqV0E

If anyone is interested, I have few of his albums to recommend....

https://youtu.be/aX0k_3wtgrM

Thanks nsp for the recommendation. I found the complete (2 discs) Mannehole sessions at discogs for 15 bucks. Amazon wanted 40 bucks and up for used copies. Its on the way to me. I'm sure you know of Manne's work with Hollywood scores like Peter Gunn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7s-JZ_BSSM

Below is Shelly with Richie Kamuca on tenor as on the Blackhawk sessions but this features Russ Freeman on piano, Conte Candoli on trumpet, and Monty Budwig on bass so it is the line-up for the Mannehole sessions you recommended, except the bass player. Is the bassist on Mannehole Chuck Berghofer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1h8mJR6SB8

alexatpos, thanks for the Victor Feldman links. I saw Ronnie Scott playing tenor on one of them. 


Ronnie Scott was also the owner of the Ronnie Scotts jazz club in London. The place is still open. I have a bluray of Jeff Beck performing live at that venue and also live CD's from  John McLaughlin and Johnny Griffin recorded there. 

 Griffin:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXjo4c5WeSY

McLaughlin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2GAAK3PFII

Beck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK14So3O5_k

pjw
I found my copy of "At The Mannehole" 2-lp , it's an original japanese pressing with liner notes. Recorded 3,4&5 1961 and yes the bass player is Chuck Berghofer. I plan to listen to it and the blackhawk lps soon.
Discogs can be a good alternative than Amazon or Ebay for price and hard to find stuff.
Yes I have 'Peter Gunn " and "Son of Gunn" Manne lps with Mancini music. Another great lp by Manne is soundtrack to the tv series "Checkmate" with the same lineup as the At The Mannehole lps.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=la7oJj2QwaA

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0oFLp4MzZvE

Charlie Mariano & Jerry Dodgion

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V1lnTqaBEAM

pjw
the J Griffin song title from Live at Ronnie Scotts is actually "When We Were One" not Done, a misprint on the post. This tune can also be found in an extended version of the Griffin " Live In Tokyo" lp/cd.  It's one of a great number of beautiful ballads written by Griffin .

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bYB1utP7m_E

Art Pepper also recorded live at Ronnie Scotts but it was issued under the piano players name due to contract issues.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SH6ac88iNWA

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WpadHPS50vU

Rok, I'm still waiting for the Frogman to answer your question in regard to East Coast and West Coast jazz; although I know the answer, I feel that Frogman could put it into words better than me.

orpheus10,
I want to hear your answer

Won’t have time until Sunday to offer some thoughts on West Coast/East Coas Jazz, but will then. Yes, O-10, I’d like to read your (and anyone else’s) thoughts on this also.

No time to write, but a little time to cut and paste.  This subject has come up previously.  This is from two old posts of mine:
————————————
Orpheus10, as you point out West Coast Jazz is difficult to define. But, it does have some general defining characteristics. It can be differentiated from East Coast Jazz and other styles by the fact that West Coast players tended to play with a "cooler" approach; generally speaking, with a lighter and softer tone. There was an emphasis on the composition and arrangements as opposed to the improvisation; and sometimes classical music compositional techniques such as fugues were part of the mix. The fact that there was great demand for arrangers in Hollywood surely helped some of these stay employed.

I already mentioned one of my favorite recordings in this style (the Previn/ Shorty Rogers). I mentioned that one because it is lesser known, as well as being a favorite. I am sure you already now some of these, but a few other favorites are:

Miles Davis "Birth Of The Cool". The title says it all. What can be said about this recording that hasn't already be said. Other than to note that this session is really considered a Gil Evans session; which further highlights the clout that the arranger had.

Dave Brubeck "Time Out". Good example of the use of classical techniques.

Paul Demond/ Gerry Mulligan "Two Of A Mind"

Zoot Sims "Quartets"

"Shelly Manne And His Men Play Peter Gunn" Henry Mancini arranger

"Art Pepper + Eleven" 

Vince Guaraldi "Charlie Brown Suite" No kidding, one of my favorites 
———————————————————————

****Why were all the East Coast guys black and all the West Coast guys white?****

While it is true that most practicioners of "West Coast Jazz" were white, not "all" were; Buddy Collette, Benny Carter, Chico Hamilton and Red Callender, to name a few, were black.

****So, if I were a second rate horn player where would I go to earn fame and fortune? I could go to LA where Jazz had no history or establishment****

The idea that only second rate players were found in LA is absolutely not true and very unfair to the many great players who hailed from LA and were part of a movement in jazz that reflected a different stylistic aesthetic from that of the East Coast and not a reflection of lesser quality.  Additionally, it is not true that in LA jazz had no history or establishment.  There had always been a vibrant Jazz scene in LA with traditional jazz playing a very prominent role.  Even your fave Jelly Roll lived in LA for many years.

LA was, in fact, were many great musicians went to "gain fortune".  Many of the great LA jazz players were also very successful session players in the LA movie studios recording for the countless movie scores being produced.  Unfortunately, that scene was racially segregated during the 40s and 50s, but players/arrangers like Benny Carter were able to change that situation for themselves and all that followed.  There is an interesting connection between the existence of the Hollywood scene and the West Coast Jazz style.  In keeping with, and perhaps as a result of, the demands of the movie industry for very well crafted and extended compositions for their movie scores, the West Coast Jazz style highlights the compositional elements of the music much more than the East Coast (hard)bop style which is typically that of a simple pass through the melody followed by improvised solos.  The West Coast style features more intricate compositions with elements of Classical counterpoint and it was the first time that the very demanding concept of a jazz ensemble without a chordal instrument (piano, organ, guitar) was implemented; all this with a typically softer ("cool") instrumental tone approach as opposed to the harder edged East Coast style.  Does this make it jazz that is less "real" and the other more real?  Since when do the French decide what is real jazz? 😊

Another Blackhawk recording. Very good sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s2TLkQ7wWY

Pjw, Still listening, but could you check volume 2-5 for a lack of center stage, except strangely when crowd is clapping. Drums, bass, and sax to the right and piano and trumpet out of left. Volume 1 has a nice soundstage. Not a deal killer but you asked for an opinion on sound, and I was wondering if your version had the same issue.

Music is good,so far. 

I don't think we have played this. Notice the title. I remember him saying once he used to play like Clifford Brown in High School.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I73T9yLdoH0

acman, I so like that one, it sounds like the music for the movie with all the dramatic points one story needs. Thanks for that.

fro, I have just printed out your last post...one has to contemplate over it. Ignore the hiccup in case if it occurs.

Frogman I knew you could explain this much better than me.

****Why were all the East Coast guys black and all the West Coast guys white?****

"West Coast guys white"; that even went for the music, the Black guys even sounded White; I thought Buddy Collette was White for the longest. His good friend Mingus, even said his music sounded White.

When I was in LA, I talked to musicians who could have been famous if they left LA, but since they could make a good living there, why leave?

West Coast jazz reflected the lifestyle there; laid back and cool, always casual.

I have nothing to add or subtract from your post, it was complete.

I wonder if music is like language, in that while going up in Texas, and working on farms and ranches as a teen, then working in Dallas for 40 years and losing my twang, for the most part, when I hang out with my East Texas friends, I actually hear my twang come out more pronounced. 

Do musicians develop a sound like the people they play with?

Acman, either that, or they like to play with people who talk like them.

nsp, I have this 4 disc version of Art Pepper live at Ronnie Scotts:

https://www.amazon.com/Blues-Fisherman-Unreleased-Pepper-Vol/dp/B005BY8XA4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qi...

I was unaware of the Milcho Leviev releases. I believe he plays piano on the set I have released on the Widows Taste label (Laurie Pepper).

I compared the second link you posted, with the tune Goodbye, which is 11:18 on youtube, with the version I have which clocke in at 11:11. After repeated listens of the first minute, they are identical versions. I searched for the Milcho Leviev cd on Amazon and it was not to be found. However I did see the following: https://www.amazon.com/Milcho-Leviev/dp/B013PUGSCK/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1535...

I listened to the samplings and its on my wish list. I like his playing and I just might buy it.

rok2id, Thanks for that link. That is some smoking New Orleans style jazz. Eric Clapton looks like he's having a great time sitting in with that terrific band ensemble.

Did you know that Clapton's bandmates from the super group Cream, Jack Bruce (bass) and Ginger Baker (drums) have both released a few jazz albums.

I saw a documentary on Ginger Baker in which he states his 3 biggest influences on the drums were Art Blakey, Max Roach, and Elvin Jones.

Sizzling Baker drum solo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1VNOw1JASM

From Baker's 2014 jazz album "Why?" this is titled "Ginger Spice"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PphC5h10Q_A

Ginger had spent a long time in Africa in the early 70's and embraced their culture as he was obsessed with their music and the percussion rythm which is evident in the above song. 

acman3, I only listened to disc one last night and the recording was remastered as good as one could, I think, from the source tapes. Very open soundstage and separation of the instruments. I will listen to disc 2 next Friday and compare it. My listening night is Friday as my sound room set up is quite loud and I had to make a compromise with my wife. Other nights I use my Sennheiser headphones so I cannot do an apples to apples comparison until next Friday. The wifey does not appreciate all of the walls in the house shaking when I listen to my jazz in straight stereo or mono with my JBL dual subwoofers and the front R/L towers at -15-20 db.

rok2id, Here is more Wynton Marsalis NOLA jazz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RqWGuWIM_g

Rok, there were some "hard bop" musicians who could not read music, all strongly influenced by Black Gospel. Not so in West Coast musicians, they could read and write music.

East Coast is also more impromptu improvisation (very emotional), while West Coast is cerebral.

As you define "real", meaning emotionally from the heart, West Coast is less real, but that doesn't mean it's less jazzy.

Let us compare and evaluate two versions of my all time favorite tune "Nica's Dream". I will present the West Coast version and a popular East Coast version.

First we'll evaluate Curtis Counce;


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trjO7TWe6ME


Now Horace Silver;


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDrxzKYdwsA


I'll let you go first in regard to the evaluation.


     

West/East:

Sorry guys, but you’re conflating several issues and painting with way too broad a brush.

First, while I’m glad that you thought my descriptions were complete, O-10, I don’t agree with your comment that East Coast jazz, because it often (not always) has more of an emphasis on improvisation than West Coast jazz, is more emotional. This relates to the recent question re “soul” and which music or which player has more soul than another. One simply can’t make generalizations about this. I can easily give examples of musicians playing music that is written down who play it with much more emotion and “soul” than many examples of improvised music which can come across as emotionally dry and even mechanical. That kind of generalization simply doesn’t work and doesn’t answer anything about the question of the differences between the two styles of playing. To say that East Coast jazz is “more real” is doing West Coast players a disservice and is simply not true. We are talking about two different STYLES of playing. Yes, East Coast jazz is GENERALLY harder edged and less cool. Does that make it “more real” or more emotional? I don’t think so. Different, yes. I think acman3’s post and question go a long way toward shedding some light on this:

**** I wonder if music is like language, in that while going up in Texas, and working on farms and ranches as a teen, then working in Dallas for 40 years and losing my twang, for the most part, when I hang out with my East Texas friends, I actually hear my twang come out more pronounced.

Do musicians develop a sound like the people they play with? ****

First, the answer to the question is, definitely. The broader point goes to the important fact that the parallels between music playing and basic human experience are many. Think of it this way:

Think about that cousin that we all know who always seems to be on an “emotional” roller coaster; who is loud at parties and wears loud attire. Then there is that other cousin who is quiet, perhaps even shy, and wears sensible shoes. We then get to really know and understand each of them only to find out that the loud one is always late, is unreliable, cheats on his wife and just declared bankruptcy. The quiet one would never tell you this, but he is the one who donates his time at church, takes his kids to soccer practice (in his sensible shoes), chooses to keep his problems to himself and is a great listener when you really need him to listen. Is the loud and extravagant cousin “more real”? Does he have more “soul”?  Not in my book. Are people on the East Coast more “real” than people on the West Coast?

O-10’s Nica’s Dream comparison:

First of all, I don’t think that those recordings are a good example or indicative of the differences in the styles, There is no more improvisation in the Horace Silver version than in the Curtis Counce; so, there goes the notion that because there is more improvisation (there isn’t) it is more “real” or more emotional. Then there is what Rok describes as “more in your face, more of an edge.” The main reason for the difference and why it made that impression is simple (you want “nuts and bolts”?): Horace Silver’s version is faster. They play the tune at a faster tempo; much faster. Just because the music is played in the West Coast doesn’t necessarily mean that it is played in what is typically considered “the West Coast style”. There was and is a lot of “crossing over” in the styles of playing which is why those generalities just don’t work. The recently discussed music of Dave Brubeck or Gerry Mulligan are much better examples of what can be considered classic West Coast jazz. Generally much more compositionally intricate and a generally more laid back attitude.

**** The mismatch in talent could have been the difference. I would not have been able to say one was East Coast vs West Coast.****

The difference was the tempo and the reason you wouldn’t be able to tel that one was West and the other East was that there was very little difference other than the tempo.

Another generality that doesn’t hold up is the recurring idea that because some musicians couldn’t read music their playing was somehow “more real” than that of those who could. Simply not true. Art Pepper, as good an example of a West Coast alto player as there is was a terrible reader. Conversely, there were many East Coast hard bop players who were great readers.

####

Hollywood, Movie themes, CA life style, (they were and are different from the rest of the US), little if any influence from black music.

The question is:
*****Does this make it jazz that is less "real" and the other more real?****

The jury is still out. ####

I think the jury is very much “in”. As with those two cousins, our impressions and reactions to each have as much to do with who we each are as individuals and how we judge that sort of thing as does the reality of who they are. The generalities don’t work and our personal criteria in judging may not be and probably aren’t anyone else’s. Besides, I thought you recently wrote that you didn’t think that genetics (black music) should be the determining factor for “soul” (“more real”). I agree with you, it shouldn’t.

Both were excellent versions of "Nica's Dream"; the West Coast version kind of flowed and oozed, while the East Coast was "hard riding"; imagine an outlaw making his get away from the posse across the badlands, you could hear Horace Silver riding hard on those keys, while Carl Perkins was laid back and cool.

The East Coast was hot and explosive, full of emotion; Junior Cook, on tenor, and Blue Mitchell on trumpet were lightening quick, and jazzy to the extreme; which is what East Coast is all about, I started sweating just listening to it.

If you have a temperature, and want to cool off, you need West Coast, but if you want to get hot and excited, it's East Coast.

Frogman, evidently, you haven't spent much time in El A, as soon as you get there, you know you're in a different world, and West Coast jazz reflects that casual, cool, laid back life style; there is no such thing as a necktie in almost all of El A.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2nbtYg8YGA

While there are exceptions to any "Generalization", a generalization can be made in regard to West Coast jazz, and it absolutely reflects the lifestyle of the people.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwAAjnqdB4w

I think frogman made a lot of good points and I agree with him. Not trying to start a war here but if you blindfolded any jazz aficionados, man or woman of any race and played many different variants of jazz, (songs they were not familiar with) they would never be able to tell what race the musicians are.

In regard to Acmans language statement, it's more likely that musicians who speak the same language find one another; the "hard bop" improvisational jazz language is both fast and complex; musicians can not get acquainted on the bandstand, they must speak the same language.

In the case of "Miles Davis", he chose musicians whose music would compliment his own; I didn't see any evidence of Miles rubbing off on the musicians who played with him.

In the case of Max Roach and Clifford Brown, they were like twins, who could read each others minds.


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt_fmhtePoc