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Tireguy; thanks for posting the Jena Labs info.-- an interesting read.
Rainchild; While I have not done a direct before and after test of the same cryo wire vs non-cryo, you may be interested that I just replaced an old 6 awg wire (from main to sub-main in my dedicated AC system) with a 60 ft. cryo treated 10 awg wire from Virtual Dynamics. I also bought and installed their cryo treated 30 amp breaker in the main breaker panel. The improvements in sound quality, while not dramatic, were very worth while.
Prior to the change, my systems AC was slightly bright and I could only tame the brightness with high quality power cords-- but noise floor was very low. The new VD cryo treated wire and breaker presents music with a greater sense of ease, naturalness, and more "liveness".
The VD on-line literature says the cryo treated products allow one to see "deeper into the music". That didn't mean much to me until I actually heard it for myself, and then I said "yeah that's exactly what happens. Specifically, I would say both micro and macro-dynamics are improved but in a very natural way. Why this works I don't know.
In phase 2 of my dedicated AC upgrade program, I plan to replace the 4 standard 20 amp breakers in my sub-main with VD cryo'ed breakers, replace all 5 of my Hubbell outlets with 5 cryo'ed Hubbells, and finally replace the present 12 awg THHN wires with the VD 10/4 awg cryo'ed wires.
I'm now completely convinced that the cryo'ed stuff works and has a nicely positive affect on music quality and character. Good Luck, and Cheers. Craig
Craig - why do you attribute (part) the sonic difference between old 6awg and 10 awg wire from Virtual Dynamics to cryogeneics? "The VD on-line literature says the cryo treated products allow one to see "deeper into the music". I think VD just reaped benefits of marketing, using an ambiguous statement.
I would be surprised if cryo did nothing, but I question the opportunity of cost of cryoing a $40 PC. I would avoid finding answers from VD an Jena. All they did was tap in to the cold rush, and neither site explains anything.
If you can find it, buried in AA archives is at least one person(a manufacturer I think) comparing cryo and non cryo using the same cable. He could not find a real differece, but I have forgotten the system he tried them on, if it was mentioned.
Well Ohlala, we are in for an interesting comparison because I have found an older Jena Labs cable(prior to her cryo'ing them, other then that its the same cable). I will be comparing it directly to the same cable I have that is cryo treated, I will be sure to report my findings here- though I have a funny feeling you have made your mind up already.
From a past post I made:
What does not survive cryo treatment well are:
1) Metal Oxide Varistor, an electronic component used in surge suppression [they cracked].
2) Silicone compounds for damping [they shrunk a bit and hardened].
3) Neoprene rubber [shrank a bit and lost elasticity]. I also have been told that silver mica caps don't do well, and "some" adhesives".
Add the mov's and silicon (and other) damping compounds last, *after* the cryogenic treatment....that way everything will be perfect.
Ohlala; if anyone thinks it's just advertisiing that's fine. As for me, I'm just enjoying the timbrally rich, mellow music that I consider a very nice and welcome improvement. But it could just be the new wire even w/o the cryo treatment.
However, I've read many, many positive reviews of the beneficial effects of the cryo process on parts that could affect music quality, and I wanted to try it myself-- so I did with the above results. I read a lot, and get much information that way, and yes some of it is advertising.
Does anyone want me to get the electricians back and have them tear out the cryo wire ($80./hr.), which I really like, and have them put some in that meets someone else's specs ($80./hr.)? And then if I don't like that wire, I could get the electricians back and have them tear out the wire ($80./hr) and put in some other wire($80./hr.).
So, Let's not take this argument to the point of the ridiculous, electricians get expensive, and minimum house call charge wasn't even mentioned. Why would someone want to try and meet someone else's expectations (wives excluded)? Is all advertising false?, or does some meet with approval? Please enlighten us. But most of all, please tell us of your experiences with cryo'ed products and music quality/character?
I'm going to reach the 6th decade in 2 weeks or so, and I don't BS myself. In those years I've learned to trust my own hearing ability and judgement much more than I do someone else's cynical skepticism-- however good their intentions may be. Cheers. Craig
Garfish - Rainchild wants to know what cryo does. I do not have cables that differ only in cryoness, so I can't comment. I have as much knowledge of its effects as you do. I would be surprised if there was not a difference under certain to many circumstances. Your experiment, however is confounded, but not only do you claim cryo is beneficial, you claim to know how it affects the sound, by repeating an ambiguous statement from a website. That can be misleading and is what I reacted to.
"However, I've read many, many positive reviews of the beneficial effects of the cryo process on parts that could affect music quality, and I wanted to try it myself-- so I did with the above results. I read a lot, and get much information that way, and yes some of it is advertising."
Thanks for answering. All I wanted to know is how you became so sure from the very weak evidence you initially published. Something as potentially subtle as cryo requires stricter conditions. As far ridiculous, I think it would be easier to admit that you don't really know than to hire an electrician. Maybe you share the source of a couple of those many, many convincing reviews for R.C. and others to look over.
"Is all advertising false?"
Oh gee, ummm, no.
"or does some meet with approval?"
If subjective(especially), I would think it would at least have to be substantiated, which is what has not been done.
"Please enlighten us."
If you to answer someone's question with an subjective advertisement claim, then the contribution you made is worthless. VD's cryo claims are unsubstantiated in this thread, and VD's cryo goals are obvious. You tried to make a connection between your experience and VD's cryo claim, but logically(b/c of your confounds), you can't do that. Happy birthday
I am using some cryo treated cables.I sent some OTA to be treated and have 2 Digital IC's I am evaluating(1 treated\1 not).
I think there is a difference.More things underneath the music are revealed.The OTA cable is fast to begin with and this stuff seems to give it a touch more of prevelence all the way around.
There might be a drawback for me though.I use a ART DIO which seems to not get a lock as much using the Treated cable.
I am stil testing it though.
I dop think there is a benefit from the scientific view.Kharma speaker's Cryo their XO's and some major wire companies I have read use the process in ultra expensive cable.There are Mic Magnified photo's of what the surface of metals look like before and after the process and it looks smoother.It might take the airpockets out of the metal making it a better conductor.These things I have read.
To each there own.If done incorrectly it can damage the conductor also.You have to make certain that who you send it to people who know what they are doing.Ray Kimber is experimenting with it now and bought a Dewar Tank so it is becoming more common place.
I will be having new speaker's wired with it and I will have my outlets cryo treated.I think in theory it works ,but YMMV.
I have personally done some experimentation with deep immersion cryo treatment v. non-cryo’d on numerous AC outlets, electrical wiring 10 gauge of various types, to a lesser extent power cords, interconnects and very shortly speaker cables (waiting to get some back from being cryo’d and cable-cooked).
I agree with Jena labs, in most cases to my ears “the item that was cryo’d is quieter in noise floor and more revealing of subtle musical nuances”. I have personally heard this for myself on my tube system and solid state system including on Psychicanimal’s system.
The question is, does the listener prefer the alteration in sound? There have been times for example where Bob Crump (and I agree because it has happened to me also) has stated that he did not prefer the sound of a certain item that was cryo’d, and other times he preferred it.
I suggest that readers listen and deiced what sounds best to them on their own system because many times I have noticed that items are system dependent. I’ve also learned that cryo treatment many time’s makes a mediocre item more equal to an expensive counter part that is not cryo’d.
I have also heard the huge difference between cryoed and non-cryoed outlets. I have not done cryo on any wires or power cords, but can recall reading a post at Audioasylum suggesting that alloys (ie. power contacts in receptacles) probably respond more to cryo treatment than a non alloy metal with a very high purity. I don't know whether this is true or not, having no experience with it, but simply present the idea in the context of the outlets being very easy to distinguish, with the possibility of improvements in cables and power cords possibly being more subtle.
Cyro treating is like everything else in this hobby. It will change the sound of your system compared to non-cyro'd wires. This change had been beneficial to many, but not for everyone who has tried it. Getting more or less of something from the cable change, can just as likely throw a system out of balance, as correct it.
While i can't remember who it was, someone here on Agon posted a comparison between three identical cables. One was "stock" and was simply used like any other cable i.e. it was put into a system and a musical signal passed through it. Another cable was "burned" on a cable burner. I think they used a Mobie, but i can't recall for certain. The third cable was cryogenically frozen.
If memory serves me right, this individual felt that both the burned cable and the cryo'd cable were noticeably superior to the "stock" cable in most every aspect. The differences between cryo'ing and "burning" were relatively negligible according to their post. Once again, i'm working off of memory and this was at least a year or two ago.
My personal experience is that there is a very noticeable difference between "stock" cables and cables that have been "burned" on a good burner. I have never had any cryo'd wires in any of my systems nor done comparisons in other systems, so i can't say much about that. Given the very positive effects that i've had with "burning", having a cable cryo'd might simply be another layer of frosting on top of an already good tasting cake. Sean
Ohlala; I'll stand by my original post. Please re-read it if it's not clear to you. I was insulted because you impugned my integrity. As to sources for info on cryo treatment, try the A'Gon, AA and other audio site archives. You should actually try some cryo treated products-- you might like them, and outlets are not that expensive relative to many things in the high end.
I appreciate the other posts by Lak, Hdm, Abex, Sugarbrie, Sean, and Tireguy about their observations on cryo treatment. I find myself in good company. Cheers. Craig
I didn't comment on your integrity, just your reasoning.
You know, I could (should!?) buy something cryo'd, but I still couldn't make any conclusions about how cryo affected what I just bought. I would still know what I know now. And yes, I have read (conflicting) audio reviews of cryo, I know some details of the process, but I don't think its reasonable to tell someone what cryo does based on my summation of those reviews, advertisements and my confounded experience. Nothing personal, I just wanted to point out that problem. I hope now my points are now clear to at least some impressionable readers, but I doubt it matters.
"I find myself in good company."
I did an A/B test with cryo treated cables. My buddy and I both had Audio Quest Anaconda interconnects that we purchased at the same time. They were both well broken in with a couple hundred hours of use when we did the first test. We confirmed that we could hear no difference between his cable or my cable when we inserted them in his system.
I sent my cable to Jena Labs to have it cryo treated and played it for about 15 hours before going back to my friend's house for the test. While I thought I could hear improvements in my system, I was only going by memory, so the only valid test was to take my cable back to his system which we used as the constant.
We both thought the difference in sound quality was significant and easily heard. The Cyro'd cable now sounded considerably different than our non-cryo'd cable. It's musical presentation had more "weight' and seemed more natural sounding. There was also a reduction in brightness. The music sounded more coherent and dynamic. We concluded that with this cable and in this application, there was no downside- everything just sounded better.
Based on this, I later had a FIM outlet cryo treated with similar good results. Prior to cryo treating, it sounded very bright, but afterwards it was much better. I recently re-wired my amp with Jena Labs Ultra Wire (also cryo treated), and while I can't say how much of the improvement was due to the cryo'ing, the net effect was huge- the best money I've ever spent in this hobby. So based on my first A/B test with the identical cables, I'm certain the benefits are real. The other two experiences would seem to bear out the benefits in other applications as well, but were not a rigorous test.
BTW, I was extremely nervous about having a set of interconnects cryo treated, but they were returned in perfect conditon, and remain so 9 months later.
Ohlala: I think that if you follow my suggestion, for $75 you will definitely be able to draw a conclusion with respect to cryo, at least what it is capable of doing to outlets. Buy a stock Hubbell 5362 (a very good sounding receptacle) which will cost you about $15 and at the same time order a cryoed 5362 from Alan Kafton at Audioexcellence for $60. Put the stock receptacle into your system-ideally with a component plugged directly into it (either amplification or digital) and run it for 3 or 4 weeks so that it is completely run in. Then remove it and replace it with the cryoed receptacle, which ideally you would have installed somewhere else to burn in for the same time period. If you can't hear a difference, you're out $75.
I would bet that you'll probably be buying more cryoed receptacles. Either way, you're going to draw a conclusion.
So cryo does change things in one way or another. I perceived it does carry it's own sonic character. Or should I say it brings out the true sonic character of that particular item. If the latter is right, them how about let say cable with a bright and forward nature? wouldn't it be worst after treatment?
Good suggestion, Hdm. I am not sure how cryo, that particular outlet and my system will react together. I live in an apartment and my audio interest is waning, so I may never know :) In a high resolution system, I am sure the differece would be obvious, and if the system was managed well enough, the effect of cryo would be benefitial. Albert has practically everything but his chassis screws cryoed and it is not possible to believe he would still hold an interest in cryo if it did not benefit his system.
"What if 2 different cables were cryoed? Will they sound indentical in sonic character after that?"
My argument from a different direction - no.
Ohlala; you argue well. However in your above reply to Hdm you (finally) say: "In a high resolution system, I am sure the difference would be obvious, and if the system was managed well enough, the effect of the cryo would be beneficial." How would you know this? By reading? Why not try listening using rigorous test methods if you need?
I have a high resolution system and the difference using the cryo treated VD wire was very obvious to me-- it sounded nothing like several other regular copper wires I'd tried in this position. I consider Albertporter a well informed colleague too, and his experience influenced me to start trying cryo'ed products-- to my benefit I'm thinking.
What started this whole bit of nonsence was that I didn't add "IMO" to the end of my first post-- sorry for that now. Afterall, much or even most of high end audio is based purely on opinion. Ya' know subjective listening. Yes? Cheers. Craig
In order to cut down the amount of tension involved in controversial threads and subjects, i will post my point of view first and then anybody that disagrees with me will be censored. This will minimize the amount of subjectivity within any thread and help us get down to what will now be considered "just the facts" : ) Sean
I don't need to test or read to know that any reasonable change in an ultimate resolution system will affect the sound. Similar to what I stated at the beginning, I would be surprised if cryo had no affect/benefit on your nice system, Garfish. But there is a large difference between believing (even 99.999% sure) it would have an effect and publishing on what that effect is. This leads to my point that conclusions based on second-hand subjective information tied with confounded experience is not enough evidence to be published.
"if the system was managed well enough, the effect of the cryo would be beneficial."
I think I overstepped, which makes me a hypocrite. Based on my knowledge, I should have left it at only "difference", or "managed system", not "well managed system". I was thinking of Albert's well managed system, but I, myself, am in no position to comment that cryo does anything, but create change in some circumstances.
"it sounded nothing like several other regular copper wires I'd tried in this position."
"What started this whole bit of nonsence was that I didn't add "IMO" to the end of my first post"
Doubt it. I have more respect for you w/out it. This point is stupid, but I would like to see more scientific approach used, in general, on agon posts. BTW - I don't feel tense or have anything but respect for Garfish.
Ohlala; I too will go back and correct some deficiencies in my first post. I tried Virtual Dynamics cryogenically treated 10/4 BX wire and liked the beneficial effects it had on my system very much. That is a fact. The new VD wire replaced a "brightish sounding " old Zaner 6/3 stranded copper wire.
It is my sense that the cryo treatment is pretty important to the sonic improvements though. This is based on past trials as noted below, as well as others reported experiences with cryo. I did not cite these originally as the post was already getting long.
But I can't say for sure if the beneficial effect on sonics was simply due to the new wire or the cryogenic treatment. In this trial they were inseparable, and I don't think VD sells the 10/4 wire untreated. Even if they did, it would be an expensive proposition to purchase, install and try both.
However, in years past I've tried several other wires between main and submain, to include: Romex 12/2 (non-ded.)-- pretty poor; Romex 12/2 dedicated-- fairly good, but soft, and lacking dynamics; Zaner 6/3 stranded, dedicated, direction 1-- very soft dull, boring; Zaner 6/3 stranded direction 2-- much more live, dynamic, somewhat bright, but best of the trials. 3 years later: the Virtual Dynamics 10/4 cryo'ed wire-- a very worthwhile improvement over all others. However, my stereo system was changed (improved) over this time too.
I was able to try these different wires at the time as the electricians had things torn apart and I asked them for a few days to do "testing". They didn't understand but humored me, and even at that it almost cost me a divorce as I had un-installed wires running all over the place on a Fri night., Sat., and Sun.
I just made my original post as a casual contribution to an audio forum "chat room". It was never meant to pass scientific scrutiny for "publishing" as some kind of scientific treatise. I was a Forest Soil Scientist for 30+ years and am well aware of the demands of credible scientific publications.
Ohlala, this has been an interesting exchange, at least to me. You have an inquiring mind and an incisive logic that I respect. I hope I have adequately addressed your reservations regarding my first post. And I also hope that there is no lasting enmity between us. Cheers. Craig
If cables almost cost you your marriage I would curtail experimenting with cables for awhile!LOL
What I think is significant is taking a inexpensive IC(Beldens) and turning it into a contender with ultra priced cables such as Transparents.
If this is the case then it is a highly desired process.Listening today I became aware of things that were not apparent before in recordings.High Frequency info like Cymbals are beginning to come through more which is what I was after.
Jeez, and I thought the UN was a debating society. Apparently my actual experience with two identical cables (one cryo treated, one kept as a constant in the test) wasn't nearly as interesting to people as debating hypotheticals.
Of course, the former is based on real experience and had an identifiable outcome, while the later allows differences to remain in the realm of opinion and belief so nobody ever has to change their mind- which sometimes seems to be the main point of this hobby.
And, no, I'm not interested in entering the debate. Just cryo your cables and enjoy the music.
No,the debating society is over at Audio Reviews Cable BB!
There you will find the most congenial people to tell you that there is no diff in cables and they seem to know more about it then the cable cos. themselves.You have to agree with this viewpoint or you are spanked for every post that differs.
They love science over there also.Way ahead of Einstein!