Cable auditions - Hard Work?

Oldpet, I think there are a lot of misconception about tube amps. They can have just as much slam as SS amp. It really depends on circuit and parts used in the design.
Same applies to SS amp. Jeff Rowland is more refined sound to my ears.

I'm currently using Lafayette KT-550 amp ( a non-ultralinear version of HK citation II ) and HK Citation I preamp with home made cable to drive my 80db ATC SCM10 original version. It has more slam and fuller body sound than the Bryston and your Krell amp I heard with this same speaker. One thing I didn't like the Krell is grain. It drives with punch but lack of refinement. The transient sounded quick but very un-natural. The Bryston just sounded too thin and light weight with my ATC.

Many of the tube amps use low current power supplies, that's one of the reason why you don't get the slam you're looking for. Poor power supply also lead to poor sounding. I stopped by xyz audio shop in NYC and heard the Vac PA90 (with 4 X EL34) with BW 802s. Big sound but very poor bass control. The speakers are drawing too much current where the amp couldn't handle it. This is exactly what I mean by suffering from PSU. Even with expensive cables, it didn't help the sound much.

Unlike SS amps which all have high output rating, proper power output matching is critical for tube amps.

As with all things, I suppose if I heard the VAC Phi 110/110 in MY system, and loved it, I would make efforts to aquire one. I must say - the VAC amps and preamps definitely LOOK beautiful. Are the Phi 110/110 amps current production? Web site info?

I'm sure there must be other tube amps beside the VAC which would be sonically satisfactory.

thanks

Thanks Grant. I'll be doing some research.

S23chang - I have not had the oppurtunity to hear the Rowland amps.
As for tube Amps - Several things:
1. I like slam. I'm not sure you can achieve really good slam with tubes.
2. I'm NOT going to be bothered with tube bias-ing. Plus - the cost of tubes is really getting silly.
3. I think a tube amp system would be really nice for 'relaxing' around the house, with their 'euphonic' type for sound that they're famous for. But, for more serious listening, I prefer a more natural, or un-emphasised, sonic picture in front of me.

Hi Tvad

Glad to see you back. :-)
1. It seems resolving to me too.
2. I have never investigated power conditioning. Not really familiar with it or its benefits.
3. Just thinking I might be missing something. I think i'm coming down with "the disease" Adiophilia Nervosa! :( I'm trying my best to keep perspective though. Plus I don't hear obvious differences in the cables I've switched in and out. That's about it.

Thanks for getting back.
BTW - how did you delete a post?
paul

TVAD - where did your post go???!!!! I saw it here last night, but haven't had a chance to post. YIKES!!!

Not a big fan of Krell FPB400cx. Have you tried Jeff Rowland?
How about some tube amps?

You guys tell me about the equipment:
TRL Marantz SA-14
First Sound Presence delux MkII
Krell FPB400cx
Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signature (one piece)
Room is treated with 16 Tube traps, of various sizes, placed symetrically around the 13x18 room.

I think the equipmet is revealing enough. What do you think?
Thanks for everyone's help.
paul

I agree cables are the hardest part of the system to choose. But first off let me say you need realy good equipment to hear the differences. The speakers being the most important. Remember Speakers are the only part of the system that turns electrical energy into mechancial energy.
I feel one should put more money into speakers than any other part of the system. Once you have good equipment then cables come into play. Cables are like going on a blind date, but you pay for the DIVORCE up front. I have MIT and Transparent. Not for the wire, I like there network boxes and how it improves the sound stage. Been thought many products. I am married now and not looking to go on any more blind dates.

The differences can be verys subtle. If too subtle, I figure they're worth ignoring. Case in point, I just tried for the first time three of those Black Diamond Racing cones. My intellect said, "You know better than to think there'll be a significant difference in sound using them..." My heart said, "you never know...!" Tried them. Virtually zero effect. Should've known! Beat myself mentally for 72 hours over that...

If there was a sleight difference, not enough to elicit excitement. If you have to strain and guess, "AM I hearing a difference," then even if there IS a difference, it's not worth it. Put the money on other component upgrades. Room tuning IS definitely worth it IF you have reached the point of a certain level of cost of components and in most cases you have a dedicated room. Sticking all kinds of absorbtion devices etc in a large open-ended living room is using giant band aids to fix a largely unfixable problem.

If I had a system worth less than $2k I'd buy a lower end set of cables from a well known manufacturer, such as Kimber, Audioquest, etc. The higher up you go in components, the more attention you can spend on cables. But, yes, it usually takes exchanging out the entire set to hear a significant difference, and that difference will not typically be as significant as a component change, especially a component with new breakthrough technology such as digital amps or Rega's new laser assembly in the Apollo. (Yes, I purchased Apollo about three weeks ago - HUGE leap forward for the economical audiophile!
I have grown tired of swapping multiple pairs of cables in "stacked" speaker setups, in biamped configurations, etc. I must be getting older, don't want to bend over awkwardly and get stiff back from 35 minutes of redoing the wiring.
Oh, the results can pay off handsomely. I'm glad I went through it all, the buying, selling, redoing, etc. Now I feel I've got some good wiring going.
But I am happy that I'm moving toward a more streamlined system, with single wired speakers and one amp instead of two etc. Pure, clean, less mucking around.
Now that I've been through all this, I feel I've got great sounding cabling for MY current system. Switch components and I'd have to go through a lot of it again.
That's the frustrating thing about it; every component is system specific in its sound.
You've just gotta keep putting puzzle pieces together until you see the picture, er, the sound the way you like. If you're not willing to do that, then turn it off or resolve to do something else, like read, while you listen so you won't be driven crazy listening for problems in the sound.

Lacee

Yeah, i feel kind of weird saying all this, because i actually get paid to listen, critically to things. :-) I'm pretty good at it too. That's why i wonder - why don't these differences knock me out? Am i expecting too much? hmmm

You have to develope your sense of hearing like you do your sense of taste.Distinguishing differences in cables or wines is something that takes time to develope.Some people excell more than others and are Super Tasters in the wine world and can conjure up images of exotic fruits and flavours. Should our sense of hearing be taken any less serious?

Lacee, you got me with the hearing aid : )
Oldpet, one way to tie with 2k to 4k is sharing the cost with your audiophile friends near you. That's what I did when we compared over 50 ICs

Glad to see the arguing is over.

Douglas_ schroeder

You make excellent points. I know I CAN'T tie up $2-4K in cables "just to see".

Maybe if someone could explain what to listen for when auditiong cables...ie: greater frequency extension, increased detail, increased dynaminc range???? Maybe i expect too much when changing cables. Maybe ALL cables in a given price range sound the same? I know this....the more I think I know....it seems the less i actually know. hmm.....

p

I did a blind test using Audioquest dbs cables. I put on Rippingtons, and then after a few minutes switched to Joss Stone. There was a difference. Put in Harmonic Techology cables. The difference remained...I concluded that no cables are able to make all my music sound the same.

Seriously, I am beginning to think that both positions may be partly true. I am definitely in the camp that says, "I hear a difference" regarding cables. However, I also think there are other intangible factors at work in ABX tests. I think it is possible that there are indeed differences, AND that people are notoriously unable to differentiate those differences when in bind tests. The day may come when both are substantiated to most audiophiles' satisfaction.

It IS much more difficult to apprehend the difference testing any one cable in an entire system (i.e. swapping out only interconnect from cdp to pre). Even in highly resolving systems, such changes are very nuanced. But, the difference becomes much more evident when the entire system's cables are changed. Most people, I surmise, are not wiling to go to that extreme, but merely swap a cable, don't hear too much, and conclude it's all bunk about cable differences.
Take a system with average electronics and monitors, say, and you're not likely to hear much different no matter what single cable you compare A/B. But, use a more ambitious system with very resolving speakers and you can fairly easily hear cable differences when the entire set is switched out.
Who wants to tie up as much as $2-4K in cables just to listen to two sets? Probably very few, even among those who claim the title audiophile. But, that IS what it usually takes to do it right. The results are most satisfactory.

Finally, I had put up a lengthy defence of sonic differences in cables on the Assylum a couple weeks ago. Several posts that had taken some time to think out. It was all deleted (as far as I was able to discern) after two days. Last time I waste effort on lengthy debate there!

Chang, I have a 65 year old audiophile friend with hearing aids and he could hear the improvement a Hydra 2 and Python cord made to the sound of his old 1970's AcoustatX 4 panel speakers as well as I could.He was skeptical that it would and didn't want to spend "money" Maybe a hearing test should be made a mandatory requirement when someone says they don't hear differences.

Some people have built in defence mechanisms when it comes to cables having differences.I have seen this polarity in other forums and neither camp claims defeat.What it boils down to is that this is all opinions.Some hear, some don't; some don't want to hear and some want to hear.I never understand how people that say they are interested in audio as a hobby are not interested in at least trying to better their listening experience.Why would someone think nothing of buying a costly cd player and then connect it with out of the box interconnect or power cord?
If people want to do Audio on the cheap, then get yourselves a theatre in a box and leave the rest of us who know better enjoy our improvements. We won't laugh at you, we are better than that.

DBT is a fun exercise in futility,best spent with friends and a couple of beers to pass a Saturday afternoon.
Everyone forgets what the first cable sounded like by the time they get to the last.Best to do it yourself with your standard cable and the new cable and be prepared to listen to the same track over and over and at different times of the day.You will eventually give in one way or the other.

Yawn....

Lateguestsnomore:
John Atkinson's 5% "golden eared" population is actually statistically incorrect, as you can read here:

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/wishful_thinking.htm

S23chang, great points.

First I love your concept of getting rid of the "system dependant" comments. Cables are only system dependant if they are making up for weaknesses in the system. A strong system will help us determine what the cable is doing, but if the cable is bad, it's bad (and in my opinion there are more bad ones than good ones) This may be why some people claim cables make no difference or are scams, snake oil and the like. Many cables are just plain &^%$ and are simply created to take advantage of the audiophile hype. That is true, but there are also some truly amazing cables on the market, finding them is the trick. Especially if we want "affordable" ones. I believe some people have found some affordable great cables, but I unfortunately have not found the same. The cables that I have had the greatest success with are not cheap, but I have not quite looking either. In fact I'm awaiting another set to try, and I am studying the science to begin building some beta interconnects to try. It's interesting in that the only way to know what you want from a system is to have heard the best it can be. It is then possible to try and downsize from there, trying to find a cheaper alternative that provides the aspects in sonics we find most pleasing.

As an example, I tried a 300B SET amp in my system. It pointed out what was possible in the mid-range and dimensionality with my other components. It also showed me the weaknesses of SET amps. I took that experience and through footers and cabling I was able to match the mid-range qualities within my solid state amp. I could not have done this without hearing what was possible, this is why it is so important to try other friends equipment in our own systems, and why we need to hear as many systems as possible.

My goal is to continue to tweak my system to achieve the best aspects of other systems I hear (and that I chose to afford). If I continue to strive for the best of every system I have heard, then my system continues to be the best I have yet heard, and it is to my ears.

You have also brought up two of the most important and most often overlooked issues. Room acoustics and speaker placement can do more than all the money on earth. Acoustics is not only vital, but scientific and predictable. We all need to do a lot more research and self education on room acoustics if we want the best from our investment.

Thanks for the great post, very well thought out!

jd

Yuri's correct about one thing: the ultimate sound doesn't change once you reach the best possible setup. When do you know achieve it? until you are satisfied with your setup. However, it doesn't mean different cable will not change the sound in your ultimate setup. It only means that you found the best component possible for your setup which includes cables. How do you know if the cable you own is the best? You will need to explore in many different systems possible. i.e. I tried my cable in 5 totally different setups and all sound very good with this particular cable. If it doesn't pass this test then I wouldn't even consider it. As least to me, a good cable should work in any setup. This will throw away the system dependent theory. If a system is highly resolving then any little change will make a difference. It is like listening through hearing aid. On the other hand, do we listen to music with hearing aid? probably not. The listener can decide for themseleves. I would never suggest which cable is the best cable but rather I would suggest which group of cables would be good choice. There is no such thing as best since it is based on individual listener's ear and mind. Don't forget about room acoustic too. Speaker placement is very important too. It took over many many many auditions for the speakers to settle down in its best possible position.

Yuri, I am sick of this ^%$# out of your mouth. You stand on your soap box telling us “folks” to listen to you because your Toys ‘R Us system can not discern the difference in Sonics between different cables and components. Then you “dare” me to come listen to your mid-fi system so you can prove to me how poor it does resolving detail. Wow, I am impressed!

Below is just a snippet of your lecture:

“Are you willing to bet you will be able to tell the difference between your expensive power cable and a cheap one in a blind test, consistently over 50% of the time?
I am willing to bet money you can't.
Anyone in the Northern NJ / NYC is more than welcome to stop by and take me up on my bet...”

“Here is the power chord double blind test link folks:”

“Guys, don't take this personally, but…”

“Musical Fidelity Tri Vista 21 DAC against the analog outputs of my Yamaha S2500”

“I dare anyone claiming that you can positively tell the difference between ICs, to test any of their expensive ICs against my home made Belden coax ICs on a set of blind tests, and consistently tell the difference between them.”

Then you continue your ranting with a comment like: (note I left the typo’s for your pleasure) “I am not saying there is no difference.. there may be one, but is not something our human ears can detect.”

What the %$#@ are you talking about. Like our ears are somehow inadequate in hearing these differences, yet you can recognize a friend’s voice over a cell phone with a speaker that has no fidelity what so ever. I’m sorry Yuri, you have no idea what you’re talking about, and your speeches to us while you stand on your soap box are growing very old.

Then you have the gall to jump on Jafox’s back. Son, you have no idea who you are talking with . This man would put your limited experience and intellect to shame. Now if you will please shut up, so I can stop reading your worthless nonsense.

There was a fellow eary on in this thread, 'Bob' who said we should get a good cable and stick to it. he said it well. I buy a well regarded IC and stick with it for five about five years and then I buy another well regarded one.

This can fix any oxidation or any other problem. I am much too busy enjoying my music and the rest of my life to give so much of myself to so little of a concern.

Note: The best improvement you will ever make is your first upgrade from what came with your component or what you bought at Circuit City, Radio Shack, etc.

Yuri,
You are fighting windmills.
Some time ago, John Atkinson (an expert for audio and any other matter) said that, if only a few people can hear a difference, then there is a difference. Thus, if 5% of the population think there is a difference (and 95% do not), then there is a difference!!!
I guess that sums it up about the science and audio (and Stereophile for that matter).
Our systems produce illusions.
We should not argue about whose illusion is more realistic...
Best regards to everybody,

Mr. Jafox
If i can't even trust my own subjective hearing, i don't think i can trust the subjective hearing of others, specially people who can hear "differences" in power cords, bybee quantum filters, shakti stones, granite stands and speaker cables lifters, LOL

If you want to believe in audio voodoo and marketing hype, go ahead, i will stick to my silly scientific methods, which hopefully will have more validity than the "experience of others"

To anyone who is so sure of your golden ears, i invite you to stop by my place and do some blind tests to see what we can hear.... maybe i am wrong, but at least i am open minded enough not to call blind tests "silly"

Folks, don't believe everything you read.

"Maybe the whole point of my posts ...... "

The whole point of your posts has been a series of consistent themes: 1) Cables and other component swaps in YOUR system have indicated no audible differences by you or others who heard it; 2) because YOU do not hear such differences, they are therefore subjective; 3) all the rest of us are only fooling ourselves by our claimed non-blind tests since these differences may exist "but is not something our human ears can detect".

"is that once one reaches an high echelon in the quality of the components in one system, things such as one interconnect cables or fancy power cords make no difference."

Mary, Mary, quite contrary.

As for your four consecutive MAYBE's: 1) "High-end enough"...now that is subjective.....but the answer to the spirit of your question is: possibly; 2) highly doubtful; 3) possibly; 4) possibly

I never claimed to have silver ears. I simply stated I heard an immediate difference that was validated upon a return to the previous product in the link. I simply did not need the "truth" from blind testing as my ears already made it very clear of the differences.

Please search for the word "better" in all posts of this thread and make a note that I did not use this anywhere in my text. I am talking of differences .... not what is better. That something is or was better was your conclusion, not mine.

You are right, I did wrongfully assume there would likely be a difference between the Yamaha and the Trivista. I have heard a few auditions in the past where differences were just not there for me. And this could be the case here. But the implementation of your test pretty much doomed the opportunity for you to hear any differences if they may have existed. And THAT was what I attempted to point out.

As for the Emperor, I believe he is wearing clothes. He just needs to clean his ears and open his mind to the experiences of others, and not be so conclusive that events that occur for him will necessarily be the same for others.

Mr Jafox
Maybe the whole point of my posts is that once one reaches an high echelon in the quality of the components in one system, things such as one interconnect cables or fancy power cords make no difference.

You are obviously misconstruing what i am saying here: I am not saying that there is no difference in audio components.. there are marked differences between certain things, but after myself and two other people failed to tell any differences between the same album on SACD and remastered CD on a blind test, i decided to revise my thinking, and evaluate my own perspective on what i am hearing.

Maybe the system we did the SACD vs. CD test on wasn't high-end enough?
maybe two people in their twenties and one in his thirties are going deaf?
maybe the universal player we used for testing sucks?
maybe the SACD was implemented poorly?

The only way to find out the truth is through what you call "silly" testing... the same type of testing statisticians and scientists have been using for years. Very silly indeed.
Sorry, not all of us have silver ears like you, and i need more reliable methods than my own subjectivity to find out what REALLY sounds better.

Does the $1400 trivista tube DAC really sound better than the analog output stage on the Yamaha S2500?
Why should it sound better? just because it is more expensive or because it has great reviews on Audiophile?
Has anyone actually done a real blind test comparison between both units..?

Maybe the analog stage on the Yamaha S2500 is implemented well enough, so there is no audible difference?
You assume i should be hearing a difference, and my point is.. maybe there is none, and that is what intend to find out.

Mr. Jafox... maybe the Emperor is not wearing any clothes.

Yuri,When was the last time you cleaned your ears,,,be honest now!Can you hear me now?

Yuri: Your "I am right and I dare you to prove me wrong" approach leaves little motivation for anyone here to make the effort to help you determine why you are not hearing some differences with these products. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps your system implementation is the cause of you not hearing such changes?

My system is very different than yours and I do indeed hear changes that do not require any silly blind testing. Rather than preach to us that what we are hearing is all in our minds, perhaps a more pro-active approach would be to learn from others on what they have done to achieve the sonic differences.

Have you taken your audio gear to someone else's home and compared it to what they have? Maybe their setup would allow you to hear such immediate differences.

Your pedantic delivery that cables make no difference, DAC's make no difference, Stereophile's report shows that amps make no difference, etc., etc., benefits nobody. Does such a magazine report imply that everyone will have the same results in their home system? We can all determine the outcome of an audition for ourself.

"Just a few days ago i was testing the digital outputs of my Musical Fidelity Tri Vista 21 DAC against the analog outputs of my Yamaha S2500 when playing a CD, ..."

Why are you using the DAC's digital outputs to compare to the analog outputs of a CDP? What are the DAC's digital outputs driving? A more "conventional" test would have been the DAC's analog outputs vs. the Yamaha's analog outputs into the preamp. And what is driving the Tri Vista? The Yamaha as a transport? And through what digital cable interface? Just this interface alone could mask or entirely destroy the opportunity for you to hear the benefits of the Tri Vista.

"I couldn't tell them apart, and i doubt anyone could."

Probably true but more likely due to the system's implementation rather than there not being actual differences between these individual products.

What I find ironic from your Magnepan 2.7 vs. 3.6 thread, you wrote that changing only the inductors in the speaker brought on an improvement. ONLY THE INDUCTORS!!!! And yet you can't hear amp or DAC differences?

What do you listen for.....simply frequency response and tonality changes? What about dynamic contrasts, harmonic overtones, decays, separation of musicians on the stage, etc.? For me, these are the significant changes brought on by the components which you claim sound the same.

I read the report on the power cable test. A quick review of the components that resulted in that system would indicate that such a system poorly conveys many of the attributes I listed above. I own the Talons, and they are wonderful speakers, but they are not strong in the dimensionality areas. And forget about these attributes with the Parasound JC-1s and the Theta DAC/preamp. If you want to test a Ferarri engine, you don't drop it in a Buick Century.

So Yuri, the big question here is, if you can not hear any differences, then why not just go with a Best Buy rack system and be done with it?

Yun, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah! That's all I hear.

I think there is some truth in what you say Yuri. Audio listening is entirely "subjective." Why is that? Because the ear is an organ that is the ultimate transmitter to the brain. As long as all potential listening experiences are mediated by such a subjective piece of material, one can never truly say that sensory experience is universal. But by the same token, no one else can tell someone else what they hear or do not hear. You can't take what is for you a good, reliable means for evaluating and assume it is more true than another. I'm sure that people do want to hear what they want to hear. So you are right on that score. But by the same token I think it's also very possible for people to hear what they don't want to hear. For example, they might wish that their expensive cable is better than another expensive cable in their system but decide otherwise. And also it might be the case that their cable is better than the other in a different system. So much of this already subjective and context-dependent that you can't make the kind of universal claims you are making here. All you can say is that there is some evidence on A/B comparisons where people couldn't make blind distinctions. This fact raises some question about the reliability of certain high end gear being superior to others. That's fine. What doesn't go is the idea that you can draw too many conclusions from this.

Guys, don't take this personally, but unless you have done Blind ABX tests with your power cords and interconnects, it is all subjective.. you know what is playing, and you may think you hear a difference instead of really hearing one.

Stereophile magazine even did a blind A/B test with different high end amps, and most of the subjects couldn't tell the difference between them!
yep, entire amplifiers, not ICs, not Power cords..

Just a few days ago i was testing the digital outputs of my Musical Fidelity Tri Vista 21 DAC against the analog outputs of my Yamaha S2500 when playing a CD, using my transformer-based passive preamp as an A/B switch.
I couldn't tell them apart, and i doubt anyone could.
The DAC really makes a difference in units not having a great analog stage, but once you start to get in the high end of things, is hard to tell the difference.
While the Trivista 21 is one of the best DACs made, a Stereophile Class A unit, i was kind of dissapointed the analog stage of the S2500 sounded just as good, with no upsampling..
I am going to do further tests / blind tests with different CDs to see what i can hear..
Cheers

"Washline: The bottom line is this: Without doing blind A/B testing, your emotions and the fact that you spent big bucks on power cables will influence what you are hearing.
A/B testing is not enough."

Pretty tough to judge people's ears, yuri. Better to stick with your own. It is an organ after all and every bit as fallible as the next.

Power cord test is would be slightly different from IC test.
Your power tranformer and power source varies every time you flick the power switch. The amount of current/voltage draws from your power source varies more than the output of the cd player or preamp.

It is actually harder to do power cord A/B test than IC.

As far as IC test goes, I disagree with Yuri777. The difference can be huge. Among our friends, we have test over 50 IC. Unless your system is resolving enough, they also sound different regardless of price. Even the RCA plugs sound very different.

But then again, you are entitle to have subjective view.

Here is the power chord double blind test link folks:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

Washline: The bottom line is this: Without doing blind A/B testing, your emotions and the fact that you spent big bucks on power cables will influence what you are hearing.
A/B testing is not enough.

Are you willing to bet you will be able to tell the difference between your expensive power cable and a cheap one in a blind test, consistently over 50% of the time?
I am willing to bet money you can't.
Anyone in the Northern NJ / NYC is more than welcome to stop by and take me up on my bet...

Well, I supposedly got suckered into buying a 300 dollar multi-tap with RF nodules some time ago after buying some new components and after having plugged the stock power cords into an el-cheapo multi-tap worth about 5-10 bucks. I was also curious if better quality cords make a difference sonically. What was my discovery? They most certainly do. That one 300 buck multi-tap effectively lifted the music to a far greater presence than it had before. This wasn't wishful thinking. I was very prepared to be disappointed. My ears, however, were not.

Cables make a huge difference. Period.

Yuri,So,your saying that every cable in the world sounds the same? Wow!!

Hello Yuri - congratulations on finding a cable that works well for you.

The cable business is mostly a scam.
One website did a double blind test consisting of 10 so called "audiophiles" testing really expensive cryo treated power cords against a cheap power cable of the Home Depot variety.
None of the audiophiles could tell the difference
between either set of cables.

I am not saying there is no difference.. there may be one, but is not something our human ears can detect.

Some websites have banned any discussion pertaining double blind testing in their forums, because they know once people realize they have been scammed by cable companies and other silly hi-fi gadgets, the gadget and cable sponsors will take their money and advertise somewhere else.

Spend your money somewhere else...

I dare anyone claiming that you can positively tell the difference between ICs, to test any of their expensive ICs against my home made Belden coax ICs on a set of blind tests, and consistently tell the difference between them.
You are welcome to bring your own music if you wish.. I am located in Northern NJ, and have BAT, Plinius, Monarchy audio, Maggies, Musical Fidelity and custom made equipment.

Blindjim
Thanks for your well thought out answer. It certainly gives alot of food for thought.

Jayctoy
Please share your new found wisdom.

I was going to look at the Oritek X-2. But, $450 for 2 feet? Plus - A 20% restocking fee? $90 for someone to put a 2 foot pair of wires back on a shelf? YIKES!!!!!!!!! Are they that good?

Auditioning cables is fun,I learned a lot.

Auditioning anything is or can be, frustrating... sometimes... and if it is, perhaps the match is not a good one. There probably is a better path to go than the one I followed in assembling what I’ve currently got. Whether you start with power cords, or speaker cables, I know you gotta start somewhere. Given the expense of speaker cables I figured to start with interconnects, then power cords and lastly speaker cables… but that’s just me… probably doesn’t matter if one is thoughtful along the way.

Since August of this year I've been in the 'audition' mode. Power cords. tubes. Power cond. More tubes. More power cords... Dog gone little "Let's listen for some fun", listening. Well the Cable Co. ain't a bad way to go. Provided they carry the one you want to hear... but what if they don't? Whole new ball game then, huh? And trust me, they don’t have ‘em all.

Also, and I really hate this part, but it works quite well. Do one thing at a time. Doing more is very confusing… and costly. Want a cord for the amp? Put it on the amp! First and foremost. If time permits, after a decision is made then see what it does for another component… and take notes actually write things down. Review the notes…. And be blatantly honest with yourself. Did you really hear a difference, or just think it to be different? More importantly, “Better?” Being rigidly honest here will save a lot of money and regret..

More equipment is needed in that event. Adapters! Other gear... and time. I've found in my experience (s)cables, power cords, etc.. have a relationship with the item they are immediately associated with... eg, power cords for example develop a relationship with a device over some time. .. and that relationship does change with time.... to a point. It's at that point where I've found listening is then applicable. Before it, simply a waste of time. Cryogenically treated cords seem to take less run in than non treated cords, on the whole but not always.

I've taken advantage of the Cable Co. offerings and they are good folks there... Definitely. Even with their 'so called broken in' items, time in one's system is absolutely required! Nothing I've gotten from them right out of the box has performed the way it does after a week or so of runing in with my system. Nothing! So I'm fairly skeptical about them burning in things prior to lending them... matter of fact I've personally been told by them, to let the item run in for a few days before any serious comparisons are made... and to NOT 'Hot swap" cables while doing comparisons. After some time of doing this, I tend to agree. Things change. Tubes are like people, they change, evolve, especially NOS, right out of the box. Power cords get 'used' to a certain current draw... and other factors tend to change too... Time of day you listen... humidity... sources... etc...

Here's what I do... with power cords... use the IEC/AC adapters to get them warmed up... 48 hrs min. (new or unused cords require more time, comsiderably more on occasion, I’ve a couple that took over 200 hours to sound right, and up until then I didn’t care too much for them, and they continue to develop in a positive fashion), then put it into the system... for at least a couple hours... using the exact same source, and source material (CD, DVD, etc) then play and listen...though casually. Serious is a later on thing. At this point some noticeable diffs should be easily detected. Either positive, or negative. After another day or two, with NO other/additional chages to the system, try it again.. same record, CD, or what have you... now things should be far easier to determine in terms of harmonics, spatiality, tonal balance, phase shift, etc.

Everything I've implanted into my system has changed significantly after being in there for some considerable time... Interconnects seem the items that take the least amount of time... and I think it a toss up between speaker cables & power cords... used, or preowned surely take less time. Again, being in the system on the intended device is most important... especially with capacitant cords, cables, etc.

Always, Always, always... before you finally make your decision... take one last session and notes... with whatever it is that you expect to add to your system, then put back in your 'old' or previous thing, and listen to it... one last time... Differnce, yes, or not... and most importantly, was the diff, a good thing or not?

For myself, it's got to be an “Oh, Man!”, or “Wow!”, sort of thing if I'm going to spend a lot. or, it absolutely has to possess the subtlety I'm searching for, exactly. It can't be just different. Incremental improvements are at some point the best one can hope for... the wow! thing is the deal... for me, especially when the price for it is drammatic. You know, like when you've got to sell blood, hock the first born, put in some more overtime... and always, I've got to ask myself this, "Do I really want this because of the way it acts in the system, or just so I can say I've got one?" Ego can not play a part in any of this if I am to make a sound choice... pardon the pun.

I don't care if the folks that made it are ex-NASA engineers, astronauts, or graduates of M.I.T. or from the “Ft. Lonesome Finishing School for the Criminally Absurd”... is this thing giving me what I want? or, Is it just close to what I want? Change, simply for the sake of change, is a very expensive endeavor. Always. Frustrating too. And past the additive part of what something does in my system, and this part is something I’m pretty much a stickler for, what about the folks that support it? Are they accessible? Do I need only a simple phone call? Perhaps an email? How quickly the manufacturer responds, and how forward a stance they take in customer relations, means a great deal. A great deal! It serves no purpose to have an item wherein it takes an act of congress to have them return your call or emails… Lots of stuff to consider for sure. Not just if a thing is different. It definitely has to be better than what I have and worth it too.

I suppose, one overlooked item I mentioned early on is time. I’ve a good bit of it. Although I do not have enough time to, or the patience to,. Investigate first hand all that is available. There are far too many makers & products out there. Way too many. I’d like very much to be done assembling it at some point… There have to be limits. How long, how many, and how much, before I make a decision. My recent power cord extravaganza included ten or eleven, different power cords, from five or six makers… and spanned four months and change. . . and I’m going to recheck out one more before I get to getting it… because now other things have changed along the way.

It’s good to be satisfied with a thing, but if I depend on my happiness to come from a thing, and not from within myself, I’m lost before I begin. Audio is fun, provided I ask the right questions of myself and my gear, and others along the way to lend me their experiences. A thoughtful predetermined process, specific changes, notes, and honesty have helped me save a good bit of money, time, and effort, not to mention, a great deal of regret.

Auditioning cables has been difficult, somewhat complicated by previous cable (including power cords) "upgrades." Earlier on this thread someone related a story about his previous Coincident speakers cables having been a synergistic band-aid with MIT ICs, proven when he used Kubala Sosna ICs and speaker wires simultaneously. I agree with the band-aids scenario, but how do you really know which set of cables were more accurate and which are synergistic band-aids?

The kubalas' because they cost more? Or is it that together, they sounded more right. But what about the rest of the system? Even if they sound more right, they may be just be better obscuring problems somewhere else. Nothing wrong at all with preference, but actually selecting legitimate accuracy may be more difficult.

Someone else suggested replacing power cords first, to better hear cable differences. This may work, but I would suggest replacing them last. I am certain that I am not the most experienced with PCs, but they seem capable of high coloration (altering the sound significantly). It seems reasonable that high quality audio gear would be completed and voiced with the OEM PCs. If this is so, then the way the gear sounds with the OEM cords is the way it is supposed to sound, at least with the frequency balance.

So first selecting ICs that perform best with the stock OEM PCs in place seems the most logical way to ensure real accuracy and improved performance. This would also decrease the potential for just a bunch of sonic mish-mash band-aids.

Can spending 40K on cables make your music sound 40K better? How much money went into making those cables? I think that is the part of the cable industry that is a scam. I have no doubt that cables make a difference but at what price is the difference a worth while investment, and does cable A sound better than cable B or just different.