Cable auditions - Hard Work?

Hi Paul,

I have spent way too many hours agonizing over this same thing. I finally figured it out, spend a few nights listening to your system with one cable, then with the other. If you found one was less enjoyable than the other, get rid of the one you didn't enjoy. In your price range it should not require such intense listening and stress. It should be apparent without a lot of thought after a couple nights, as to which was more musical and enjoyable.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you're listening to your system and not your music, than you're missing the whole point of this hobby. ENJOY THE MUSIC! That is the goal.

JD

Here’s some food for thought.

If there is such a thing as a completely neutral set of cables, as has been suggested by Kubala-Sosna about the Emotion cables, it would be hard to prove by listening. The Kubala-Sosna Emotion cables (power cords, interconnects, speaker cable and digital cables) pass a square sign wave through the full audible spectrum. This is the only test I know of that can quantify a cables ability to transfer a signal without altering the characteristics of the signal. I can not verify the point, but KS explains that other cables they have tested are not able to pass a completely square wave throughout the frequency spectrum. If I understand this correctly, that means all the other cables he tested were not able to transfer the signal un-altered. I do not know if this creates neutrality or simply effects the dynamics, but...

OK, for the sake of argument let me say that the KS Emotion are as close to neutral (not effecting signal and sonics) as any product tested. If we set up a system with 100% KS Emotion cables, than in theory we would be listening to only the equipment, and not the effects of the cables. Now say we add one cable from some other manufacturer that is not passing 100% square sign waves. Let’s for the sake of this discussion say the high frequency sweep was distorting on the scope, meaning we are losing signal or what we call rolled off.

The effect on the sonic qualities in our system would appear as more bass. We might even conclude this cable added bass, but it is not possible for a cable (a passive device) to add, so in fact the bass sounds deeper because the high end is no longer fully extended. Now through trial and error we find an interconnect that appears to add treble, so combined with the other cable it sounds balanced. In fact the second cable was rolling off the bass, thus balancing the signal back to neutral, but with both high and low frequencies rolled off. This is in effect what we experienced with John’s final two cables.

Cables do not EVER add, unless they have some active electronics in them, possibly cables like MIT or transparent may add, but that is something different all together.

So when someone tells you it’s synergy, it may be but it’s backward synergy. We spend $$$ on a source and more $$$ on amplification and more $$$ to turn the signal into music through our speakers. If we want to receive the most of what we purchase, it makes sense that we want to lose the least signal as it passes from source to speaker. Every time a cable rolls off a frequency we are losing a small amount of the potential we paid for. Add this up with a number of cables and the net result is something far less than our components are capable of.

This would tell me we should want as neutral a cable as possible. Or in other words a cable that alters the original signal as little as possible. It appears that the Kubala-Sosna cables are in fact doing just that. At this point my system is one cable short of 100% Emotion cables,(power cord to Hydra power conditioner) and that should mean I’m hearing my equipment for the first time. This of course means my isolation techniques that were created using the Valhalla cables needs to be looked at. I have no idea what a sign wave sent through the Valhalla cable might look like, but sonically my system sounded thin in comparison to now.

Here’s a second set of thoughts;

Let’s say you have your system all set up with brand X interconnects, and brand Y speaker cable. So far your budget or your denial of power cables making a difference has prevented you from trying power cords. So now you decide to try three different brands. Each one had some effect, one sounded bright, one was bloated in the bass and one seemed to dampen the entire presentation. What really happened? How did cord one sound?

There is no true way to answer this question, and because of this we have created audiophile lingo to describe our findings. Synergy, system dependent, my opinion, blah, blah, blah. The reality is person one experiences brightness because of the other cables weaknesses. He never actually heard the power cord, only the effect of that cords weaknesses upon the other weaknesses from the interconnects and speaker wire.

So when you are testing cables, it is not fully possible to explain the characteristic of one cable or another unless you have full understanding of what your system is already losing.

Is this an explanation to why some people do not hear a difference? Is it possible that the interconnect someone tries has less added roll off that the remaining system? This would mean the final sonic characteristic did not change with the new cable because the remaining cables were performing below the capabilities of the tested cable.

To actually say that cables make no difference is just plain naive, or it’s someone who has too much ear wax or it’s someone who has so many bad cables they have not experienced the issue or it’s just a jerk looking for a fight. This is not a debatable topic, cables do matter, and to a much bigger degree than we know.

So when you buy that new cable and put it in your system, remember, your not hearing that cables characteristics, your hearing the remaining cables, assuming of course your upgrading.

If you are interested in hearing your components I recommend finding a neutral cable. I personally have found the KS cables to effect my system with a completely different result than any other cables I’ve tried.. I have now heard these in five different systems, and in each and every case the effects were the same. In my system the bass tightened, the noise floor dropped, the highs remained fully extended yet with body. Midrange is very colorful. The notes appear more separated, more defined, yet my system does not at all sound clinical or analytical. In fact it sounds the best it ever has. I guess that means the equipment I have sound great.

I believe Kubala-Sosna cables are 100% neutral, and that no other cable they tested were able to pass a square sine wave. I believe this is a break through product, and it has helped me understand how cables work.

I hope this post was understandable, for I think it is a whole new thought process for explaining the effects of cables.

JD

I believe all three, actually five lines of KS cables have the same characteristics. I actually know very little about the other lines, other than each line is about half the cost of the one above. They also come with a trade up policy which allows upgrading if desired.

As far as no other cable... I'm not sure, this is the only one however I have tried that is unique in it's characteristics and thus revolutionary in my mind.

Yun, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah! That's all I hear.

Paul (Oldpet) I can not answer your question without speculating. I will attempt to ger and answer from Kubala-Sosna.

Zargon, I agree with all your comments, and I believe I tried to point these subjective conclusions out.

[So, Kubala-Sosna is doing something different,and many believe it is better, however, it isn't necessarily "the best" or "totally uncolored" when compared to others. Remember, the cable effect is also dependent on the components it connects, and these dependencies may override everything else]

If I failed to get that across properly, I apologies for it does indeed remain subjective.

Steve, I would not be surprised if I mis-inturprited much of what I was told. I do however stand behind the general pholosaphy behind my posted thoughts. Both you and Zargon have put words in my mouth however. Below I copied my words:

"If there is such a thing as a completely neutral set of cables, as has been suggested by Kubala-Sosna about the Emotion cables, it would be hard to prove by listening. The Kubala-Sosna Emotion cables (power cords, interconnects, speaker cable and digital cables) pass a square sign wave through the full audible spectrum. This is the only test I know of that can quantify a cables ability to transfer a signal without altering the characteristics of the signal. I can not verify the point, but KS explains that other cables they have tested are not able to pass a completely square wave throughout the frequency spectrum. If I understand this correctly, that means all the other cables he tested were not able to transfer the signal un-altered. I do not know if this creates neutrality or simply affects the dynamics, but..."

"OK, for the sake of argument let me say that the KS Emotion are as close to neutral…"

"If you are interested in hearing your components I recommend finding a neutral cable."

"I believe Kubala-Sosna cables are 100% neutral,"

"I believe all three, actually five lines of KS cables have the same characteristics. I actually know very little about the other lines, other than…"

I never did claim a perfect square wave and I hedge the neutrality issue with “IF” there is …

This is a concept “we” audiophiles throw around a lot, yet I’m not even sure what neutral is. I assume it to be something with little affect on the audio signal, and yet I have tried to make it clear I have no test to verify this. So if we need to nit-pick over my words, please use my words and not others.

I stand by the intent of my words, that these are unique to my ears, and I do believe they are break through. I understand this is only my personal experience, but my experience on five different systems, and in all cases it has had the same affects.

JD

I'm sorry Bojack, but your two comments here show a great hypocritical view. First you claim cables are a scam, a comment I did not even give you the courtesy to reply to, Then you tell the poster of the thread to use Audioquest, as you say you have stuck with for 15 years.

What is your point? That because you have stuck with AQ for 15 years all others are a scam, or are you the scam, and clearly not worth listening to?

Yuri, I am sick of this ^%$# out of your mouth. You stand on your soap box telling us “folks” to listen to you because your Toys ‘R Us system can not discern the difference in Sonics between different cables and components. Then you “dare” me to come listen to your mid-fi system so you can prove to me how poor it does resolving detail. Wow, I am impressed!

Below is just a snippet of your lecture:

“Are you willing to bet you will be able to tell the difference between your expensive power cable and a cheap one in a blind test, consistently over 50% of the time?
I am willing to bet money you can't.
Anyone in the Northern NJ / NYC is more than welcome to stop by and take me up on my bet...”

“Here is the power chord double blind test link folks:”

“Guys, don't take this personally, but…”

“Musical Fidelity Tri Vista 21 DAC against the analog outputs of my Yamaha S2500”

“I dare anyone claiming that you can positively tell the difference between ICs, to test any of their expensive ICs against my home made Belden coax ICs on a set of blind tests, and consistently tell the difference between them.”

Then you continue your ranting with a comment like: (note I left the typo’s for your pleasure) “I am not saying there is no difference.. there may be one, but is not something our human ears can detect.”

What the %$#@ are you talking about. Like our ears are somehow inadequate in hearing these differences, yet you can recognize a friend’s voice over a cell phone with a speaker that has no fidelity what so ever. I’m sorry Yuri, you have no idea what you’re talking about, and your speeches to us while you stand on your soap box are growing very old.

Then you have the gall to jump on Jafox’s back. Son, you have no idea who you are talking with . This man would put your limited experience and intellect to shame. Now if you will please shut up, so I can stop reading your worthless nonsense.

S23chang, great points.

First I love your concept of getting rid of the "system dependant" comments. Cables are only system dependant if they are making up for weaknesses in the system. A strong system will help us determine what the cable is doing, but if the cable is bad, it's bad (and in my opinion there are more bad ones than good ones) This may be why some people claim cables make no difference or are scams, snake oil and the like. Many cables are just plain &^%$ and are simply created to take advantage of the audiophile hype. That is true, but there are also some truly amazing cables on the market, finding them is the trick. Especially if we want "affordable" ones. I believe some people have found some affordable great cables, but I unfortunately have not found the same. The cables that I have had the greatest success with are not cheap, but I have not quite looking either. In fact I'm awaiting another set to try, and I am studying the science to begin building some beta interconnects to try. It's interesting in that the only way to know what you want from a system is to have heard the best it can be. It is then possible to try and downsize from there, trying to find a cheaper alternative that provides the aspects in sonics we find most pleasing.

As an example, I tried a 300B SET amp in my system. It pointed out what was possible in the mid-range and dimensionality with my other components. It also showed me the weaknesses of SET amps. I took that experience and through footers and cabling I was able to match the mid-range qualities within my solid state amp. I could not have done this without hearing what was possible, this is why it is so important to try other friends equipment in our own systems, and why we need to hear as many systems as possible.

My goal is to continue to tweak my system to achieve the best aspects of other systems I hear (and that I chose to afford). If I continue to strive for the best of every system I have heard, then my system continues to be the best I have yet heard, and it is to my ears.

You have also brought up two of the most important and most often overlooked issues. Room acoustics and speaker placement can do more than all the money on earth. Acoustics is not only vital, but scientific and predictable. We all need to do a lot more research and self education on room acoustics if we want the best from our investment.

Thanks for the great post, very well thought out!

jd