Raven v Walker. Colored v Accurate?


This post has been generated following Jonathan Valin’s recent review of the Raven AC-3/Phantom combination in TAS. What intrigues me is not that JV has been lucky enough to review and buy or have on permanent loan yet another world’s best product. A truly astounding strike rate for any reviewer it must be said. Rather, it is what JV readily describes as the colored sound of the Raven/Phantom combination and the apparent appeal of this sound compared with what JV described as the more accurate sound of the Walker that piques my curiosity. This is not, I hasten to add about the relative merits of either table or their arms. The intention is not to have a slug-fest between Walker and Raven owners.

What really interests me is how it is that a product that in the reviewer’s opinion more accurately conveys what is on the source material is perceived as somehow less emotionally satisfying than one which presumably exaggerates, enhances or even obscures some aspect of the recorded information, if one can accept that this is what colored sound or the product’s character is. It appears counter intuitive and the deliberation of the phenomenon is making me question my own goals in audio reproduction. These have been pretty much on the side of more accurate is better and more emotionally compelling with due consideration to financial constraints in my choice of equipment in achieving this goal.

On face value and if you can accept the hyperbole it appears that the colored is better route is a little like going to a concert and putting on a device that allows you to alter the sound you hear. You twiddle a couple of knobs, sit back with a smile on your face and say “Ah! That’s better, that’s what I want it to sound like” You like it but it’s not necessarily what the musicians intended you to hear.

It seems logical that the closer one can get to accurately reproducing every piece of information recorded onto the medium then the closer you should be able to get to the actual performance, together with all the acoustic cues existing at that performance. I am making an assumption here that the recording medium is actually capable of capturing these things in the first instance.

We have our 12 inch pieces of vinyl on the platters of two systems under evaluation. We are not in the recording booth. The musicians are not on hand to play the piece over and over so that we can compare the live sound to the master tape and even if we did every performance is unique so we can never compare a second or third live performance with the one we just recorded. How then can the accuracy of a turntable/arm/cartridge combination and its ability to convey the emotion of the recorded event truly be evaluated? Ideally we should at least have the master tapes at hand to play on the same system in which we are evaluating the TT’s. The comparison will of necessity still be subjective but the determination would seem to be more believable than if the master tape were not part of the evaluation. If the master tape gave the listener no emotional connection with the musicians then I would contend that there would be something fundamentally flawed in another part of the playback system.

So in evaluating the two combinations would the more accurate combination be the more emotionally appealing? I cannot see how it would be otherwise unless we just don’t like what has been recorded or the way it has been recorded, the musicians have not made an emotional connection with us and the slightly flawed copy is preferred to the original. Is this why God made tone controls?

I have used the words seems, appears and presume quite deliberately, not to have a bet each way but because I am cognizant of the fact that we are, in audio reproduction dealing with the creation of an illusion and creating that illusion with people who have varying levels of perception, different experiences and tastes, different playback media and different physical replay environments so the task at hand for audio designers, humble reviewers and even we poor consumers could not be more complex.
phaser
Thanks Jonathan for taking the time to offer a little more insight around your review, very much appreciated. As the proud new owner of a Raven AC I have to admit, I was a little anxious about how the review was going to go. Deviations from perfection notwithstanding, I'm absolutely thrilled with the table and feel the review did a great job of characterizing the table.

That being said, did you have an opportunity to try the AC-3 with a different arm or arms, (apologies if it was mentioned in the review and I'm just forgetting)? I believe it was mentioned above that the table can sound quite different with different arms. I'd be curious know if you tried that and agree. Also, I'd be interested to get a sense of how much of the unique attributes you heard were related to the table, arm or cart or combination?

I have a secret agenda here because I have a Phantom on order and am wanting to understand if there is some strong synergy going on with those two components or if it's just the nature of the table. Or put another way, please tell me I don't have to get a Phantom and a Gold Finger V2 or Air Tight to get that sound.... I'm running out of money!!! :-) Thanks.

Bryan
Dear Jlvalin: Thank you to join us, it is not an easy task for a revewer to " expose " in an audio forum.

+++++ " any TAS reviewer, faces is how closely any piece of equipment under test approximates the sound of the real thing " +++++

many of us ( including reviewers ) have our own perception/definition of the " real thing " and maybe my question could " see " like something obvious but not for me: could you tell/explain us what the " real thing " mean for you?, thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
I have to voice an opinion that essentially agrees with Mr. Valin.
I performed as a percussionist in a number of classical orchestras.
The Raven table (with Graham arm and Dynavector Cart) is the FIRST source component in my 30 years as an audiophile that presents music as I experienced it on the stage of classical orchestras. Percussion, strings, winds, sound real.
Is it accurate? euphonic? colored?...... I don't care what it is called.
It sounds more like the real performance than any component I've ever experienced.

No other piece of hifi equipment has ever done this.
I've never heard the Walker.....I'm sure it's exquisite. I just know what I hear.

Jim
What intrigues me the most is the fact that what JV perceives as colored sound ( as compared what is believed to be transparent) thru Raven, Phantom, Gold finger/Air tight combo also said to be sounding REALISTIC AND LIFELIKE.
What is going on here? Does it mean that the the so called transparent sound that is picked up by microphones and/or mastering tape HAS some kind of limitations that keeps it sounding transparent but sterile and thus less than lifelike? Stereo recording techniques known thus far are thus inherently flawed and limited to some extent?
I always believed that the live sound is warmer as well as hot but not one or the other and therefore I, myself, always strive towards getting the sound characteristics in my system (Zanden digital, preamp,phono, MBL amps, Dunlavy Vs, Clearaudio MR w everest stand,TQ1, Insider ref wood) that JV describes in reviewing the Raven/Walker.

Also if you go back several issues where JV reviewed Kuzma Stabi/Walker combination, If I remember right, he preferred walker because WALKER produced the sound characteristics that what now Raven produced in this review- warmer and with ample body.

Also as a bonus would not it be nice, if JV said what associated equipment (Tube or SS ;-)) he used in the Raven/walker combo that produced the best lifelike sound?
I have heard Joshua Bell,in a small college auditorium,and the acoustics had me putting my hands over my ears,due to overly bright hall sound,and close seating.Lincoln Center,especially where the Julliard Orch practices, is also quite "overly-live sounding",as in a bit bright(not as bad as some claim,IMO)but music can be very enjoyable here.So perceptions are quite personal.No shock!
YES,Halcro...you may just have a very valid point(even if you are surprised by my remark here.....hey I have to be honest).
Having owned the Graham 2.2(a STEAL on the used market)and knowing it so well,the Phantom(I now own,and love)definitely has a more "grounded" personality.Not as resonant as the 2.2,but more solid and stoic(in a good way).
I can definitely see(especially with the fluid/voicing issue)how this arm can make a table/cartridge combo "appear" to move towards the "dark side of the Force"!-:)
Best.