Halcro,thanks for taking the time to write,and photograph such a great "read"!
Best to you,and good luck with the fabulous set-up. |
All "quality" acoustical guitar companies offer different tone woods,as a choice for the end user/player/musician,for many models.These "all" alter the sonic perceptions of the end user,and the listener.
I was at Lincoln Center,when the Julliard Orch performed Oliver Messiaen's monumental nine movement Turangalela(spelling?).The hall's sonics aided the dissonant characteristic of this incredible music,but after each movement there was a "rush" of white haired older women dying to get out.
I loved it,btw!!
|
BTW,not to be provocative,but I felt JV gave the Raven a free pass,to some extent.My eyes went a bit wide when "he" mentioned the loss of air,and lack of spacial characteristics between instruments on the sound stage.Also,a slight darkening of sound sends up a red flag,to me.Most importantly the "need" to add a platter mat,as well as no true clamping system?..Yes,a gorgeous table,but....Hmmmm!!
LOVE your BASIS!!!-:) |
My last post,I promise...To be totally fair,my point about the Raven was more about questioning "why" someone like JV did not seem to be too bothered by the differences he heard in two quite different sonic presentations,between Raven and Walker,and question design parameters affecting this......For someone who splits hairs over speaker differences,amongst other things,I was a bit taken aback by this review....BUT....I have heard the Raven,and personally I think it is an AMAZING table,by ANY standard!The importer,High Water Sound always puts together great sounding demos,and when I heard their set-up using the Raven,I was bowled over!So,I must be fair,in that JV obviously did an admirable job of "getting it right"!!Who am I to question anything?
My experience,hearing Miles Davis' Kind OF Blue,had me almost crying from enjoyment.I have the original pressing,and know it well.The Raven,with two arms,and a Dynavector,and Myabi cartridge sounded fabulous.....So do some other fine tables,but the Raven is a beautiful product.
Anyone owning this table shoud be proud! |
Stiltskin,this week I will have the opportunity to hear the Zanden phonostage.I'll get to audition it on Wednesday,but it will be at a dealer(a lengthly demo,I hope)!Since this design intrigues me,I am willing to take the time to get whatever I can from the experience.I hope it is informative,and educational!My main reason for interest is the ability to adjust RIAA curves for Decca/Columbia LP's,and this really intrigues me(I have a boatload of them).So,I'll see how it shakes out.Hopefully quite well,as I am only looking at it as a learning experience.
Best. |
Sorry Stiltskin,no way I'm schlepping my Phonostage to Manhattan.-:)...I'll just enjoy whatever I can,and am only looking at the experience as a get-away day,for the hobby. |
Nilthepill,I have no doubts as to how great this phonostage is,or I wouldn't make the trip from Central N.J. to lower Manhattan for the demo.I don't want to hijack this thread,and won't post here,so I will assume(actually my friends already confirmed this)it is fabulous!
Best. |
I don't think Halcro had any agenda regarding "the best",other than sincere enthusiasm for something(here the Copperhead)he is currently smitten with.Personally that is just fine with me,but I don't believe the intent was to persuade anyone to sell his/her current arm for the Copperhead.....Those with vast equipment experience(many here) take certain claims with a bit of healthy scepticism,BUT there are some(like me) who get enthused enough to file the input away for another time,when we "might" be looking to replace something.
This is how I view the well written review of the apparently superb(I have no doubt)Copperhead arm.
Of the experiences I have had,the modded Air Tangent/Titan-i combo was the best,by far,but I have no idea if it was the absolute best!
I believe Halcro(forgive my assumption if in error)did not relate the "absoluteness" of the Copperhead's superiority on the scale of "nothing could be better",other than the Cobra.I took away the implication of a stunningly good product,that reveals exactly what is hidden on my LP's.....
I "assume" other contenders can do "similar" things,like the Kuzma Airline.Another arm I am dying to hear,but am not holding my breath.Also,Kuzma has released another potential pivoting "winner",which is shown on the web-site.
From a turntable aspect,the Raven IS fabulous,as I heard two different and wonderful demos,by Jeff Catalano of High Water sound.Two different arms/cartridges,which each stood out in exemplary fashion.
For the "interested explorer" out there, there is a table that absolutely fascinates me,and happens to look amazing(an understatement)...it is the Rolf Kelch Reference!!!...Most likely very expensive(making the Raven a bargain),and with a long waiting period,BUT you "have" to see this table for yourself.An improved version of the amazing(I've heard it)Thorens Reference.Another classic design
Best. |
My felings as of late is to give almost anyone the benefit of the doubt,if he/she is passionate and seems to know a bit about "things" audio/music.Even if I am really sceptical about something,I no longer think I can gain anything by being a contrarian,other than receive contempt from some posters,SO I just stay quiet.Mostly!!
The business of vacuum,I know very well,as I have lived with vacuum units(about four tables)over some twenty years.If anyone thinks it is hard to keep a platter clean,while owning/using a good vacuum table they are greatly mistaken!
I have NOT had a single pop or tick,that I can say with certainty happened from a vacuum seal,in my 2500 LP collection.However I DO have a dedicated(locked) audio room.My friend has a dusty environment,and has had vacuum for about fifteen years,and has almost no noise issues as well.
The solution to keeping the platter clean,from my expperience,is to simply brush the platter surface with a "facial make-up brush"!You know,the type of brush women use to put rouge type make-up on their face.Very inexpensive,at around five bucks(though there is a typical rip-off audio company selling one,made of horse hair for 80 dollars)....That's it!!..No noise problems,unless you are careless.
As to the sonic impact of vacuum,to me it is a common sense attitude,coupled with "not even having to be a careful listener",it is just "that obvious"!Inner details stand out in bold relief,and if you have one of the elite arms and cartridges,you will notice something special,and in less than a few platter rotations.This is one feature I can unquestionably state is just "fabulous to have"!You want to take advantage of that fabulous platter composition you have?Well,it makes good sense to "almost" bond the LP to that platter,which eliminates any air pockets under the disc from vibration during play.No standard clamping system will give this result.AND some are pretty good,but the brass ring belongs to the finest vacuum systems.With these you truly have a disc that "truly" weighs as much as your fancy platter.Not a bad thing.
That is definitely "not" to say it is a "must",but if you have lived with it for as long as me,you don't want to be without vacuum....Personally I believe (though the subject is still open to debate,to anyone,"except me")that the non vacuum mfgrs have an easy dismissal of vacuum,as more of a marketing tool,than actual confirmation of it not working well.It certainly would not be easy or cheap to add to existing products,but had the CD not come around,I think there would have been a bigger push towards vacuum tables.....Just some thoughts-:)
Best. |
One other point regards to some claiming vacuum has a negative affect on sound...."That is total rationalization"!....I have heard two different Rockport models,the Basis Debut Gold Standard Vacuum(fantastic table)another early design(big bucks,but I forgot the name...it was at Michael Gindi's home,in the mid 1990's)and have owned a few SOTA vacuum tables.I am awaiting the newest Sota Cosmos series IV,but had the series I and III,and an earlier series IV.My friend has had the series I and series III Cosmos tables too,back ended by the Magico Minis.My new Phantom is sitting,mounted on my armboard,and awaiting the new vacuum table....I have heard my own vinyl on ALL these tables,and any stating there is some kind of negative effect of vinyl replay on a vacuum table is either not implementing it very well,or just mistaken!..."That" is an "absolute"!...
I don't mean to go on about this,but the subject was brought up.
best to all. |
Halcro,I, myself, never thought you were denegrating the employment of vacuum in any turntable...You have demonstrated your entitlement to your own opinions,and I have no problems with any of your thoughts.I have my own,as do many others.
Firstly I have "definitely" had good success in further improving my Sota Cosmos.I intend to introduce these modifications to my new series IV,as soon as it arrives.I have done so through years of trial and error,AND have run these mods through the mfgr who has no problems with them whatsoever(I believe Loyd Walker has employed mods,from learning experiences,on numerous occassions).I have also recently received multiple personal E-mails from a major foreign importer of the table(he loves the design,and carries three other expensive/high priced designs as well,but "now knows how good a maxxed out Cosmos can be"...his words)who wanted to thank me for turning him on to these minor mods,which just happen to add a "significant" degree of performance enhancements to an already superb sounding design.He went through each mod(I think there are about four)and was quite happy with the results,which will be employeed into many tables sold by him.
Sota's owner/chief designer(I know him very well)does not employee these(actually one,of the four has been employeed) as there are ergonomic issues,where some less experienced folks might not be as meticulous as others in committing to utilizing the mods,to best advantage.In other words,most folks are not like the audiogon crowd.They just want to play their music,and not worry about the last iota of fanaticism!
It would also increase the price,and there are mfgrs,like SOTA who really care about keeping money in their customers pockets.I know this from dealing with them for over twenty years!Hence,my absolute loyalty to SOTA's corporate "good character".
BTW,I used to like to NOT take the "five seconds" to "shut down" and change out my LP's,for each side too.It was when I had a Linn table,which did not accept a clamping system,so I kept it running and switched on the fly,like you apparently do.
These are all decisions we make to satisfy each of our ergonomic preferrences.Some folks like multiple arms/cartridges/tube topologies,and have no problem taking "whatever time" it takes to gain some enhancement.
In the long run,the LP "side change thing" is mighty inconsequential when one factors in the significant improvement I personally hear from a good vacuum set-up."One" I even improved on,a bit!...I'm quite happy,as I am sure you are -:)
Best. |
Halcro,I have been fortunate to have seen every one of those players mentioned,play in person.Unbelieveable athletes,AND Lew Hoad,if not for the back injury,would most probably be holding the coveted records many others now have.He was THAT good!!I know it,because I A/B'd him with all the other contenders of his era,and although my hearing may be in question,my eyes are superb -:)Rosewall wasn't bad ether(or Pat Cash).
Best. |
Halcro,with respect.....you are taking things a little too seriously.Is it OK to try NOS tubes in a mfgr product having standard ones?Or adding a platter mat(as J.Valin did)to your table?Or adding a good A/C cord to product?Or in my case finding that a superb umbillical cord improves my table's power supply(and I improved the damping on my clamp).I had my pre/phonostage totally rebuilt,to amazing effect by Great Norther Sound(mod specialists extroadinaire)I am even thinking about adding teflon capacitors in the future,because these were not available some years ago,and I don't simply sell great stuff to get something new,if I know there are ways to improve it....etc,etc.
These are the types of "tweaks" that have greatly improved some folks' set-ups.
My friend Sid has ultra modded Infinity speakers,because he know SO many qualified folks that they persuaded him to do so.Result...Huge improvement!
What's your beef?Just be happy you have a nice stereo,and go from there.
BTW,years ago,I hated to touch my stuff,and virtually NEVER swayed from my dealer's set-up.I now hear my music a bit more clearly.
Lighten up,it's not your fault Patrick Rafter retired(my favorite tennis player of all time,btw)and Leyton hewitt is not going to win another "Major" title.Either is Roddick,but I'm still a happy guy-:)
Meant in the best of spirits.. |
Phaser/Halcro/Downunder....One of you guys could have had the courtesy of answering the door bell,during "the" listening session!I also knocked "very" hard,especially after spending twelve hours on the plane to get there.
I heard alot of music coming from within,but no sounds of "life"!...SO...I took my superb Shiraz and went over to the local tennis courts,where I picked up a very nice game,and afterwards enjoyed the wine,with some "locals"(they turned out to be real "kidders") -:)
Maybe next time...G'day! |
This post "will" eventually go somewhere.....towards the Copperhead arm eventually,but I need to bloviate first(I'm good at that-:) So....
There is a middle aged group of guys at my gym,that I am somewhat friendly with.I and my wife call them the "kidders club".They love to work out(not too hard)and mostly tell cute jokes to entertain themselves.Yet,their real passion is to point out to eachother how gorgeous some of the girls are!Not a single girl escapes them,and they will go out of their way to point out the subtle aspects of each lovely lady's attributes....Not unlike some things audio!
My personal association here(other than the fact that my wife is usually within a two machine distance from me, as I sweat, alot)is that I "DO" get a kick out of them!Very humorous!Very unrealistic too, in how they think they are viewed by the "far younger girls" about.I know this because I have a beautiful daughter in her early twenties,AND any guy over thirty is absolutely "ancient" to her(she views me as utterly finished).Of course some women need to see a high seven figure bank accountant,which probably takes twenty years off an older guy's age!
SO,although I view the posters here as far more realistic then the "kidders",the allegiance to the "almost unattainable" is similar. -:)
Final thought about vacuum platters,which is NOT the "world's end" for good sound,BUT...sorry,it is absolutely a superior clamping solution,and can easily be heard...Period!...The same holds(probably) for a 100 lb platter,air suspension and bearing,but I will never own one,and think the 100 lb platter would be better than my 16 lb one,unless the bearing wore out too fast.A definite possibility.
OK,next up(just my usual bloviating)....I love many of the wonderful products we talk about,especially many here,like the fabulous Raven,and I had "previously" thought the Davinci arm was probably great( I heard it twice,but did not know the set-up well)until Halcro's assessment,which leaves me thinking "what if it IS colored".Maybe,and maybe not,because some well heeled hobbyists LOVE it,and have multiple arms on multiple tables.
I am thinking of a particular experienced hobbyist,popular on these threads,who has the Davinci,Phantom,and Kuzma Airline.Not to mention the Triplanar,which he likes to.He LOVES the Davinci,and not once mentioned any coloration!....BTW,I am not negating Halcro's findings....Just hobbyspeak,for "thread fuel",which has been quite polite(rightly so).Fun reads!!
Ok,next,and here is where I really envy Halcro(btw,we forgot Roy Emerson).....I have just downloaded the Copperhead owners manual....BOY this is a very interesting "read".At least to me!....I now have NO doubts as to this arm being a fantastic design!!!Sometimes the more info we get,the more we appreciate something.Knowledge is power!
Some interesting points mentioned by the designers,like the "clamping yolk" making 360 degree contact with the arm pillar.Similar to the Graham philosophy,but unlike the single knurled nob of the Triplanar.The all around clamp of the collar really makes the most sense,BUT Continuum uses TWO locking screws(my Graham Phantom only uses one).Continuum also uses two locking screws for the cue lifter assembly.Overkill?Doesn't seem that way to me!Really well designed touches,and I haven't got the time to say how impressed I am with the "apparent" effort that went into this design.Fremer apparently did not touch on many design aspects,in his somewhat "left wanting for more arm info" review.I view this arm more-so than the Cobra(which is probably amazing)because it represents a real world design.AND it is lightweight!MY Sota suspension would love it!
One thing I never gave much thought to,which is discussed in the manual,is the apparent increase in "pivot response time" due to a very low "weight/mass above the pivot assembly".This makes TOTAL sense to me!
I DO notice that my Phantom has significantly more mass,above it's pivot point,than my beloved 2.2 had.The Phantom definitely is a better sounding arm,but the added mass/weight somewhat changes the tonal character.Not bad,or good.Yet,different.Really different in presentation.I'm being honest!
I assume(if I understand some of the design principles of the Copperhead)that "this" arm will be BULLET fast!Also,the business of aerospace bearing design is way cool.Not to mention the "wand" material and overall product research,which believe me(or not) is appreciated by looking at the on-line manual.GOTTA be great!A usually silly assumption,but I guess I am correct!
BTW,Halcro....your problem with the antiskate looks to be rather benign,as according to what I see(pics)in the manual,you ONLY tie the thread to the bottom of the tower,and use the moveable, adjustment nob,and different registration holes for correct antiskate adjustments(above the arm tower,which does not need to be taken off again,from the diagrams).THESE TOO seem in a class of their own,as the percentage of antiskate shifts slightly,as the arm moves across the LP.A wonderful product!
BTW,Halcro,it is YOU who know this arm from practice,so my comments are simply from enthusiastic review of the manual.I could very well be wrong about ease of antiskate implementation,and other things,as I remember you claiming you had to take arm(or wand)off to access the antiskate ability.It seems less difficult from my review of the diagrams,BUT "you" definitely know better.....YOU lucky dog!!!
If I did not get my Phantom,THIS would be VERY high on my list.US dollar strength,or not!!
Best. |
Phaser,forgive my enthusiasm for a voluminous manual,but I own a printing/graphic center,and "this" manual cost a few bucks to design.
Best. |
BTW,and I only mean to be helpful with limited knowledge....From what I see,re: antiskate setting,one would set the thread so that the antiskate "bar/platform" is parallel at end of LP.Once the thread is done,and bar is parallel,"then" use the penny washers supplied, and/or "moveable" set-screw/pennywasher assembly to adjust antiskate.Of course "this" is ONLY from what I have read,but maybe something here can be of aid,hopefully.Otherwise I will keep quiet,as I have NO physical exposure to this apparently superb design.
I can only imagine how superb this arm can be once totally optimized.
Best. |
Halcro,really happy for you!!Keep asking questions,and being a thinking hobbyist.Best to you,even though you didn't answer the door -:) Just kidding. |
From my own experience,a "really good" table,especially with an integrated "linear arm" (like the fabulous Walker)will trounce virtually anything you can compare it to!
If you have not heard a "reasonable" comparison....you will be quite surprised when you do!
I've simply had way too much exposure to a "great" linear air bearing arm to be convinced otherwise.You just have to listen(at length)to how music flows from such a combo.
Any cartridge will sound better,in it too!
As far as J.V.'s "Phantom" experience,and subsequent opinions regarding tonal colorations(from the Raven),and related equipment pairings(whether cartridge or table).....
there is just SO much alternative "voicings" that you can get with a Phantom(mainly because the fluid is SO important/impactful on tonal shadings and inner detail...(which is a good thing,IMO)...that you have to take his comments in the context of someone who has NOT got alot of "time in" with the personality of "that" arm!!.....
Not to try to denegrate his comments,but Graham arm's need "alot" of owner experimentation to fully realize how one can "get it" to the optimized performance envelope with a given cartridge/table combo.
From my experience with the superb Graham arms(2.2 and Phantom) I can easily see how J.V.'s comments about some "darkening" from tha Raven table,could "easily" be a "touch" more fluid,in the bearing pivot of the arm instead....
This could "easily" be the case,and I have overdone the business of "voicing" many times,only to go back to other prior settings,but it DID give me great insight as to how the fluid can influence a cartridge....BTW,anyone owning a Phantom for a goodly length of time knows this!
I "assume" J.V. could not have had enough time with the Phantom to learn it's little "fluid quirks"....which I consider an "advantage" in reality(for the additional flexibility it affords it's curious owner)!!You just have to live with the arm,for a long time to get this.
If he claims he is "expert" already(when he has NOT listed the arm previously,in his equip under usage)than I just don't buy that notion....BTW,I enjoy reading J.V.'s thoughts,and am not trying to undermine him,but he has a "tiny bit" of ego....sometimes.
So,although I know the Raven to be superb,and love the Phantom...in all honesty...there is NOT alot of tables out there to "match or exceed" the Walker!!
Even with the great press that TAS gave the latest REFERENCE table from overseas,in the last issue(150,000 dollars...whew)...having a product from a "local" mfgr pays HUGE dividends in the long run......
"THAT" I know from recent experience.....where I had a dealer basically bury his head in the sand,rather than try to get a "little" involved and aid me with my problem(where the grounding scheme of the product he sold me,was the culprit...he should know this...no?)!! "That" episode has taken me months to sort out!!
Just some thoughts |
I have heard Joshua Bell,in a small college auditorium,and the acoustics had me putting my hands over my ears,due to overly bright hall sound,and close seating.Lincoln Center,especially where the Julliard Orch practices, is also quite "overly-live sounding",as in a bit bright(not as bad as some claim,IMO)but music can be very enjoyable here.So perceptions are quite personal.No shock!
YES,Halcro...you may just have a very valid point(even if you are surprised by my remark here.....hey I have to be honest).
Having owned the Graham 2.2(a STEAL on the used market)and knowing it so well,the Phantom(I now own,and love)definitely has a more "grounded" personality.Not as resonant as the 2.2,but more solid and stoic(in a good way).
I can definitely see(especially with the fluid/voicing issue)how this arm can make a table/cartridge combo "appear" to move towards the "dark side of the Force"!-:)
Best. |
Halcro,sorry to bother you about this,but I wonder if as of this date(Thursday) you still prefer the Copperhead to the Davinci 12 incher.I find your thoughts fascinating(in the "best" way)and enlightening.When someone like yourself goes to this length,and apparent honesty,I am all ears!!
I have read about quite glowing experiences with the Davinci,but your comments,while not condemning it,makes the Copperhead appear the "breakthrough" you claim it to be!Fascinating to say the least!
Your honesty about the apparent severe ergonomic issues,with regards to antiskate,hopefully will be addressed.The arm seems way too good for this to be the case....Funny,how Fremer did not even allude to this!Makes forums like this one all the more valid!!
BTW,an interesting point/comment that I read from another "long standing hobbyist" who was a thinking person,as well as a very good listener.....His assertion was that we each need more than one cartridge type(as well as arms too)to be able to differentiate the different aspects of LP's that came from different eras,as well as being cut in different parts of the world.This guy seemed passionate about "protecting mankind's heritage of history and music that is preserved on LP".The only way to do so,according to him,was/is to have different stylus tip types for the different Lp/cutter types,as well as mastering techniques used over the years,as well as different arms for specific cartridges.....Funny how dumb I realize I am as I had always wondered why so many folks actually like/need more than one cartridge,or arm!Sure makes sense(something I don't have much of:-).
Best. |
Actually,to add to Phaser's thought...here is what I do,on the rare occassion when I am bummed out by an equipment failure(God forbid)...In order to come out of the return,and sometimes lengthly wait for repair,I always inquire about further parts updating,or the possibility of an improvement somewhere,even if the mfgr does not normally offer this option.I have been extremely well rewarded by this.Read Arthur Salvatore's thoughts here,as they are my Bible of audio attitude,as of late!
Two years ago,my Power supply to my two chassis Rowland 8t amp developed a minor problem,but Jeff Rowland had a motorcycle mishap,that caused a lengthly wait.He is such a fine person,and I was SO into "what's out there that can be far superior" in my approach,that he got me a "one off" P/S design,that is absolutely extroadinary!I know this because my friend has the original(superb) design.Not close!!
Hence,I ALWAYS am looking for little tid bits to help my sickness.-:)
Best to all. |
Halcro,have you had sucess in getting the antiskate bar "parallel" at LP end groove?This is according to manual,and should be in new arm as well.The antiskate design on this arm seems extraordinary,and I am a believer in correct antiskate.
To me,the manual alone is worth the price of the arm.A superbly well written booklet,that makes those I have seen look meager!.....I mean... a diagram showing cartridge weights and how to mate the best counterweight balancing,to the extent shown here,is amazingly interesting.
Btw,I LOVE the comment made,in the manual....."don't listen to many posters on many web-sites"!
Gotta love it. |
"I prefer to think the Copperhead is such a leap forward,in tonearm design,that other arms are simply out of their league"......
Maybe so,but I have heard the Dynavector,and Universe,with vinyl I own and though there are differences,they are really not nearly as great as some would have you believe!
The XV-1s has a bit more meat on the bones,and the Uni is open,airy and filled with inner detailing(so is the XV-1s).
In NO way is the UNI bloated!...To me,both get a nine out of ten in overall performance.Both in similar classes,IMO....I've yet to hear a TEN! There is one experienced poster,who "I think" owns both cartridges.He also has the Davinci,and the Phantom/Triplanar/not to mention the Kuzma Airline.A fine and non confrontational fellow,but having a ton of analog experience.I believe him when he posts his thoughts.
If my memory serves me(I try to remember audio related stuff,which interests me)I believe he LOVES the Davinci,and stated that he felt it worked best with cartridges having more mass.I "think" the UNI is on the lighter side of the weight issue,so this could be one reason why it might not have stacked up to the Dynavector/ Copperhead so well.
Of course I am assuming,but I would bet the Davinci has "some" particular parameter a bit off.I have had loads of misfires in my own set up(some took months to "figure out"),and if I had this kind of money invested in "this" particular arm/cartridge combo,I think it might serve me best to play around alot.
A "surprise" might happen,and the Davinci might wake up.
Best. |
