Great discussion, I’ve got more to say, but I am rushed at this moment, but if you have a few moments, I highly recommend you listen to this interview of William Low the founder of Audioquest. The whole thing is amazingly on point with our discussion here, and Mr. Lowe is amazingly frank to the extent of shooting himself in the foot as a manufacturer of audio cables and accessories. He does tend to drone on a little, but his statements are very information dense with lots to think about. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-occasional-podcast/id1332323668?i=1000767807570
Is Sound Stage an artifact of recording?
Yesterday had the opportunity to hear a fine chamber music concert featuring musicians from the NY Philharmonic in a small modern chapel with a slightly domed wooden roof. We sat about 15-20 feet from the musicians. The all acoustic sound was excellent. The Schubert Trout piano quintet and Brahms piano quartet in G were the program. Afterwards while de-briefing at dinner with an audiophile friend who went with me and our wives, he made the point that despite the excellent acoustics and premier seating he could not close his eyes and see a "sound stage" during the concert. I had noticed the same thing. The locations of the instruments were diffuse. You could not pinpoint the location of the violin as you might expect you could on a good recording of the same work! We agreed that this was not the first time we had noticed this about live music. So I put the question to learned assembly here on Audiogon. Is sound stage something that is invented or perhaps just an artifact of the recording process to help us get the illusion of real musicians playing in front of us. Responses from those of you who have made recordings will be particularly appreciated.
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Live recordings, like Betty Carter, she walks all over the stage, I learned not to use my remote balance for her, or other live performances. Dianna Krall has been seated at the piano with a vocal mic left of center in her group every time I have seen her live. I have some recordings where the main artist is centered, the other members imaged nicely, and then, when the drummer, far right, gets a solo, they ’move’ him center, then back where he belongs, same thing with other solos, ’moved’ to the center, then back to the left or far left. Who let those engineers come to work that day? //////////////////////// Another pet peeve is when they record/present a Piano full keyboard left to right, like the biggest piano in the world. Ridiculous. |
Many good systems I’ve heard sound better than what I’ve experienced live in the past 10-15 years, at least rock for sure. The DSP’ed & amplified line arrays usually sound terrible ; hard, fatiguing & lack any real nuance when more than two or three are playing together & imaging is non existent! Most of the beautiful body & tone of a great electric guitar / amp combo is lost w/ these systems & while the line arrays accomplish their intended goal to create even sound throughout a venue, they do so at a high cost. What a shame. |
I have attended hundreds of symphony performances as well as small acoustical jazz performances... and earlier in life rock and other electronic venue. The biggest immediate variable is the venue and where you sit. By choosing seats you are deciding the amount of direct versus indirect sound you are receiving, so what you hear is going to be highly dependent on your location assuming you are in a purpose built venue. A chapel, churchs were not built for musical fidelity, they were built for awe. So they have big domes with highly reflective surfaces designed to echo and impart a sense of size and etherial splendor. So music played in such venues sounds cool... but not very real... as in realistic imaging and sound staging. In venues purpose built... well acoustics as a science is something often not optimized... so some venues are not great. But many can be great. The seats known as "audiophile seats" are 7th row center... they vary a bit between venue. In the symphony hall I attended for decades the best seats were 8th row left center. Just the right distance to hear the orchestra primarily through direct sound but with enough distance to have the sound blend during crescendos, rendering the orchestra a single instrument. In this setting there is a sound stage and imaging is present but not pinpoint. I have spent many hours with my eyes closed immersed in the music. How it was recorded is paramount after the venue. The best recordings are primarily through two microphones. The symphony hall I attended the microphones were placed about 10’ about 5th row center about 12’ apart. I could hear the difference of not having all the rows in front of me absorbing sound on those I attended and listened to the recording. The specificity of the imaging matches that in the seat I experience.
Many recording engineers place microphones everywhere and put plexiglass sounic barriers to get more specific recording of specific sections... like horns, or just cello.... or highlight the concertmaster. Then it goes into mastering... and the engineer mixes the recording. So you can get virtually anything you can think of from it.
One recording I recommend... not symphonic is Joe Jackson’s Body and Soul. Joe wanted to do a great recording. He and his producer went all over New York and then found the perfect venue. "The hall’s reverberant acoustics were captured by a matched stereo pair of expensive Neumann M50 microphones." He also close miced all the instruments. The results are one of the best recorded albums I have heard. It captures the power of the venue with its reinforced reflected sound and very realistic specicifity. Fantastic and powerful album. |
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