User feedback on subs

I agree with 2 subs whichever brand you decide on.  I’ve had an excellent experience with SVS.  They have great customer service where you can call and talk to a real person and describe what you’re looking for. You can then buy and try for 45 days and return for free in the US if you want to try something else or are not satisfied. 

2 subs! Also think DSP should be a priority. With that suggested placement, you might want to also get subs with remote inputs. 

No one has ever said REL subs are bad, but they do not have DSP

Honestly, with the budget you are suggesting would not go down the SVS route, as the other options are a bit better for music.

Don't have any experience with the other subs. My system just got upgraded with 2 ML Abyss 10 subs, they are magnificent!!! Have easy to use/setup DSP, come out of the box with remote input, have a easy to use app. They provide a ton of good detailed bass. Think you going up the latter will be even better. 

If you focus on the parallel wall-wall (widthwise, lengthwise, heightwise) distance at your specific listening spot, the harman tool still applies.

I had some stuff scripted up on Ansys years ago for irregular room shapes (but, such a thing requires a ansys license and a fairly steep learning curve to get into the software, change it for your specific room geometry, etc... NOT trivial). Some of the more intensive modeling tools could be useful for higher end hometheater guys who are trying to optimize for multiple spots in irregular rooms...not required for stereo or multichannel listening focused on a single listening spot.

There is this pro integrator guy 'hometheater guru' who gives you some scoop on the general procedure (no technical details, but, it should get you in the ballpark). He's talking about a multichannel setup and multiple seats, but, repurpose the information in your thought process for just a single seat. It would save you from a lot of misinformation propagated on forums.

Watch the video a couple of times, slow it down, etc, if you need to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQERnifPLaI

(Otherwise, It's hard to describe these things on threads, typing on a phone.)

Also, bear in mind, he has a prepro and dsp for phase adjustments of his subwoofers. In a purist setup such as yours, you need that variable phase knob in the back of your subwoofer, a 0/180 phase flip switch won't cut it usually).

If you want to get into the technical nitty gritty, harman has some papers on how these active room-treatment devices (subwoofers) couple into a room based on where you place them, nullify modes, etc. Yamaha has stuff on it too somewhere...

@mgrif104  wrote

Thanks @deep_333 

I suspect the model might not reflect the actual behavior of the room given the 12/12 pitch of the ceiling which descends to a 30” knee wall, and which on one side has a 16’ shed dormer with a 4/12 pitch adding further volume.

I had looked into some modeling software to try to better understand the room but quickly gave up when I noted that the ones I looked at did not seem to be able to account for non-rectangular room geometry. Same with the room treatment companies.

I’m also limited in how far out I can pull my speakers because I’m limited in how far back I can put my listening chair - which is currently up against a railing that fences off the stairwell. That said, with subs, I should be able to try other configurations which might permit better integration. The speakers are currently positioned for the best balance of coherence and frequency response I’ve found without subs. I’ll get to do it all over again when I have the subs though I suspect my current configuration might still be least bad.

@mgrif104 I have a test CD from SounDoctor that has a series of test frequencies down to 20Hz.  I have the crossover to my sub set at 40Hz because I run my mains at full range. I found it useful to better understand which frequencies were not in a room null at my listening position given any location of the sub.  You are welcome to borrow it if you have a way to play CDs at your cabin.  I am in s.e. wisconsin.

@jc4659 

That’s a wonderful offer! Unfortunately, I no longer have a way to play CDs up there. I’m streaming, vinyl and NAS. Fortunately, i was able to get some sense of all this after finding test tones on Qobuz. 50 hz down is problematic. Above 60 - no problem. A test CD certainly would have made it easier though. 

@deep_333 

Noted on the model being directionally correct. Thank you for the additional explanatory detail.

It does give me some starting points. I will note that my proof of concept test with my old small sub worked best in the current speaker configuration (along the 23’ side wall) with the sub just to the side of the mains and in relative phase alignment. That gave me hope that it may not be too difficult to achieve good results with two of them positioned similarly. But, there may be even better positions for two so I’ll refer to your model when I get them up there. That may take a couple of weeks.

Still looking for user feedback on Perlisten and/or SF Gravis. REL remains the easy and most likely choice. 

As a side note - I understand why many suggest DSP as necessary or at least desirable - particularly when dealing with complexities of integration, phase and equalization of subs to large full range speakers. My suspicion is you’re correct - this might be a great application for DSP. But, I also tried using DSP (via DIRAC) in a different system and room several years ago as I wanted to see what might be achieved. The results of that test scared me away from DSP. Perhaps it was user error but I found the correction so harmful as to be unlistenable. Hence my skepticism and bias in favor of RELs approach. But, I’m still learning here so I welcome the input.