Recommendations for a new subwoofer?


I had a REL S/2 sub in my system that I bought new in 2014 but earlier this year it suddenly refused to power up. I checked and replaced the fuse (which actually wasn’t blown in the first place, but couldn’t hurt to try) which yielded no result, so I called up REL directly, as they’re actually located in Berkeley CA, very near to where I live. The person I spoke to was very cordial and helpful, but it turned out that they could no longer repair that model. She did, however, refer me to a tech nearby whom, she said, may be able to help. So after some communication with the tech, I made an appointment and dropped the sub off back in February. Well, I knew in advance that things move slowly with him--he makes that clear from the beginning--so I just waited to hear. Finally, last night (yeah, I know: 3 months later) he informed me that one of the boards was fried, and they don’t make that one any more, so essentially the sub is not repairable. 

So this sordid story brings me to my question: what would be a suitable replacement for that sub? It had a 10" driver, which, for my listening habits and the room where my system is, was plenty adequate. It was paired with my Ryan R-610 speakers. 

A few subs I am considering: Elac Varro Reference RS500, Paradigm Defiance S10, and the REL T/9X. One reason I’m favoring the latter, despite my previous experience with REL, is that it doesn’t rely on an app to get it dialed in to my system, and I still have a rather good after-market speakon cable I can use.  Whatever sub I wind up with will have to have speaker-level outputs, because my integrated (Modwright KWI 200) doesn’t have a sub-appropriate input.

The above list should give indication of what price-range I can manage, i.e. $1500 or less. Recommendations and suggestions gratefully received. Thanks!

cooper52

"Room shaking" is a wrong accusation received by low extension subs too many times. High fidelity infrasonic bass extension for music has nothing to do with room shaking. Perhaps, the ’room shaking’ notion comes from the extreme hometheater dudes who like to show off their platoon of 18inch ported subs hitting 120db+ every minute or something.

On the other hand, when hifi subs get down to infrasonic 10 hz levels like a couple of Rythmik F18s in one of my rooms (for example), you will experience/’feel’ something in music tracks (tracks you may have heard a thousand times) that otherwise will be fully denied to you. It’s hard to articulate color to the blind, but, once you hear/feel it integrated correctly, you won’t be able to unhear it/go back. There is always a volume knob that can be turned counterclockwise on infrasonic subs to prevent ’room shaking’ and continue to have a high fidelity experience. In fact and in most cases, it is phase integration errors that will make the room shake, and yet you can’t experience anything. If done right, one can be a hifi bass enthusiast without shaking any room, even if the sub got down to 10 hz.

On the same note, 10 hz to 20 hz is an entire 1 octave, 20 hz to 40 hz is another entire octave as far as human listening goes. For reference, 5000 to 10000 hz is also 1 octave. Perceptively, the 2 lowest octaves are also the foundation that upper octaves build up from. Why is some guy obsessed with a measly 5 or 10 hz more extension on the low end, one might think? that’s the reason...If a 35, 40 hz ’woofer’ posing as a ’subwoofer’ (missing a couple of octaves) is good enough, one doesn’t need to spend thousands of dollars on a true ’subwoofer’. A Verafi Caldera 10 priced at 200 dollars these days (a well designed musical ’woofer’) should do the job really well. OP could save himself a lot of cash.

Rythmiks are practical pricewise/sizewise for the performance they provide for most guys. On the other hand, here’s an extreme example..the sub got down to 3hz for 120k...but can it provide a hifi experience without shaking rooms? sure it can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QOuobNCigU

 

 

Certainly these Rels not earth/room shaking but that’s not what I’m looking for. I want my subs to be invisible, simply be an extension of the main speakers, hese Rels fit the bill. Now, there is an added consideration with Rels using class a/b amps vs class D, T9x use a/b. I run mine on same dedicated circuit as main amps, this 10 AWG cryo’d Romex, 20amp, Oyaide R1 receptacles, and use quality power cords, no power conditioning. The only reason I bring this up is class a/b amps far less efficient than the typical class D amp you find in subs. This means quality of AC being fed to subs will likely have greater affect on sound quality vs class D subs. For best performance you need to supply plenty of current with the REL T9x or any class a/b sub , greater impact and articulation is the result. For those who’ve experienced wimpy sound from class a/b Rel or any a/b sub, AC not up to need. Keeping high level cable length short as possible helps, and the quality of that cable makes a difference. Using twisted multiple runs of Duelund tin plated copper litz wire to equal 13AWG, this so perfect haven’t experimented with others, I have VH Audio Airlock, a solid core wire ready to go if desired. This just to point out the high level cable used can make a difference. And all this not to say Rel a/b won’t work without all this tuning, plenty using sans this. I’m just pointing out these Rels have potential some may not be extracting.

Hello Cooper52,

I recommend a subwoofer and owner/engineer of same with whom I'm very familiar. Check out Hsu Subwoofers, https://hsuresearch.com

Dr. Hsu or his chief assistant Kevin answer the phones and will answer any questions about subs you may have.  They love to talk all things sub. I'm running two Hsu (pronounced "shoe") subs for my music and my surround rigs and love them.  Dr. Hsu's top line and newest model, the TN1 is the bomb.  I look for bass to be deep, tight and right.  Hsu hits those three on the money.   BTW that model easily fits well into your budget.  Dr. Hsu's facility is located about 20 minutes from me in Anaheim, Ca.  I pick mine up directly from his shop but all his subs, even local pick-up are securely packed in super heavy duty double reinforced triple wall cartons with metal reinforced corners.Highly recommend.  Enjoy the music.

OP here. Wow, this has turned into quite an education. Much to consider here. I’m especially grateful to deep_333 for the detailed explanation of low frequencies. Despite being a (mostly retired now) professional musician, I hadn’t really paid attention to the octaves issue (i.e. it’s a full octave from 10 to 20 Hz, and another full octave between 20 and 40 Hz, etc.) even though it’s something I’ve known since back in elementary school. 

And also, acknowledgement to m-db for pointing out that my Modwright integrated has pre-outs, which simply escaped my notice up to now. (Doh!). I actually tested it out this morning with my headphone amp just to see if it was functional, and yes indeed, the pre-outs work just fine. So that opens up the field quite a bit.

Rattling the windows and shaking the floor is definitely NOT what I’m looking for in a sub. That’s why a 10" driver is pretty much all I think I’ll need. Just needs to be musical and well integrated, with good "composure," meaning clean and well-defined. I suppose the words "fast" and "accurate" are probably more commonly used to describe these qualities. 

Right now I’m leaning towards the Elac, partly because of availability (Rythmik and MJ Acoustics are equally tempting but seem to be harder to come by at the moment) and partly because of the rated frequency response going down to 18 HZ. (The REL bottomed out at 24 Hz). Haven’t entirely ruled out REL yet, though. 

Still thinking...

Subwoofer drivers have become too damn small.

They should be at least 12 inches otherwise it’s artificial.

I hate controlling subwoofer via dsp via wi-Fi on your smart phone.  Leave the damn dials on the back of the sub. But they don't do that anymore do they?

@mylogic  Thank you for your kind acknowledgment. 

During my time with a new top of their line end table sized $9K beautifully hand veneered British made Studio III, the benefit from repositioning it to a crawl tested standing wave location was barely noticeable at best. 

The benefits of a -6dB sub-bass woofer are the simplicity of their controls and its ability to function well in most any room location due to the inability of its dramatically rolled off low frequency to excite the rooms bass modes. For the uninitiated subwoofer user, perfection.