Someone could make a "snake oil" argument against any product on the planet.
Poor value vs snake oil...
John Darko has done a good podcast with Jeff Dorgay of TONEaudio on snake oil. This prompts my post, as I think he is onto something.
See:
https://darko.audio/2020/03/podcast-20-snake-oil/
To try and summarise where his head is, he seems to be saying that
I was interested in this topic as a lot of us seem to throw about the "snake oil" insult freely. Those $10k speaker cables are snake oil to someone who only has a $2k system. I think it is worth unpicking this a bit, so we can better insult each other.
So thanks to Mr Darko's musings, here is where my head is:
Snake Oil: this only makes sense from the perspective of the seller. If they know that they are selling lies, selling sugar water as medicine, selling an empty box that does nothing, then they are perpetrating a fraud, and can be called snake oil salespeople.
So my definition of snake oil is where the seller has no legitimate reason to claim their product brings any benefit. If they can't show that some people get benefit, or can point to measurable change, then they are knowingly selling a lie.
Now I totally accept that there are many many products out there that are not worth their sticker price, but this is an entirely different concept to snake oil. Snake oil is about the mind of the seller, where as "worth" is in the mind of the buyer. We, the buyers are the judge of value (worth), we all have different opinions, and who is to say who is right.
So if my neighbour spends the cost of a good car on some speaker cables, I can moan about her wasting money, but it would be incorrect to say she has bought snake oil. Her cables are demonstrably physically different from my bell wire, so she has got something for her cash. I just don't think she got enough value for her money, which is a judgement call, and hey, she just might be a heck of a lot richer than me.
I will end with an example:
Say I sell hair conditioner which I make at home by filling nice looking bottles with water from my faucet. I sell each bottle for $100 and make up lots of quotes from satisfied customers saying how it changed their lives. Well, if I did that I would say I am a snake oil salesman.
But say that instead of filling with water, I fill my bottles with conditioner I bought down at the drug store for $2 a bottle. I sell my bottles in nice store, or at an artisanal market, and a few people tweet that it works really well, and I use their quotes in my ads... then I think I am not a snake oil salesman, but a businessman. It would not be my problem that my customers are getting poor value. Hey, that is their problem. Maybe they really like my bottle.
See:
https://darko.audio/2020/03/podcast-20-snake-oil/
To try and summarise where his head is, he seems to be saying that
- Snake oil, (the selling of something worthless as a remedy) is not about price. A $1 rip off is still a rip off.
- For something to be snake oil, it must be a confidence trick, e.g. the selling of sugar water as medicine. This is not about value judgements, its about fraud.
- That selling something that makes a tiny improvement for a lot of money is not snake oil, as there is an improvement, there is an actual product doing something, it is just that it is not worth it.
I was interested in this topic as a lot of us seem to throw about the "snake oil" insult freely. Those $10k speaker cables are snake oil to someone who only has a $2k system. I think it is worth unpicking this a bit, so we can better insult each other.
So thanks to Mr Darko's musings, here is where my head is:
Snake Oil: this only makes sense from the perspective of the seller. If they know that they are selling lies, selling sugar water as medicine, selling an empty box that does nothing, then they are perpetrating a fraud, and can be called snake oil salespeople.
So my definition of snake oil is where the seller has no legitimate reason to claim their product brings any benefit. If they can't show that some people get benefit, or can point to measurable change, then they are knowingly selling a lie.
Now I totally accept that there are many many products out there that are not worth their sticker price, but this is an entirely different concept to snake oil. Snake oil is about the mind of the seller, where as "worth" is in the mind of the buyer. We, the buyers are the judge of value (worth), we all have different opinions, and who is to say who is right.
So if my neighbour spends the cost of a good car on some speaker cables, I can moan about her wasting money, but it would be incorrect to say she has bought snake oil. Her cables are demonstrably physically different from my bell wire, so she has got something for her cash. I just don't think she got enough value for her money, which is a judgement call, and hey, she just might be a heck of a lot richer than me.
I will end with an example:
Say I sell hair conditioner which I make at home by filling nice looking bottles with water from my faucet. I sell each bottle for $100 and make up lots of quotes from satisfied customers saying how it changed their lives. Well, if I did that I would say I am a snake oil salesman.
But say that instead of filling with water, I fill my bottles with conditioner I bought down at the drug store for $2 a bottle. I sell my bottles in nice store, or at an artisanal market, and a few people tweet that it works really well, and I use their quotes in my ads... then I think I am not a snake oil salesman, but a businessman. It would not be my problem that my customers are getting poor value. Hey, that is their problem. Maybe they really like my bottle.
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- 38 posts total
rols, his definition of snake oil is an audio product that makes no improvement in either measurement or sound quality. The manufacturer's intent is another issue. I am sure there are manufacturers who evaluate thier product in the standard(defective) manner and truly believe their product does make a difference. Measurement is easy but as we all know there are aspects of sound quality that are hard to measure. You can't just plop a bunch of guys down and ask them if this device improves sound. Human's are just too complicated for that. They may have motive obvious or subconscious that drive their opinion one way or the other. You can't tell or show them what they are listening to and you have to be able to switch back and forth quickly. You have to "blind" them. As for a double blind is concerned that depends on the honesty of the principle. Just saying something like, "don't you think this sound's better?'" ruins the test entirely. You have to stay perfectly neutral. This sort of thing is hardly ever done. Somebody thinks they hear an obvious difference and does not think it is necessary and away we go. If there is a change in sound quality there is always a reason and it is not a mysterious witchcraft reason. If you can not find a reasonable reason your caution flag should go up and you may want to spend your money on something more significant. In many instances the change in sound quality is not better or worse, just different. In which case it is a matter of preference such as in choosing a cartridge and that preference may depend on a host of other variables involving an individual system. One person's gold is another's poison. It is dangerous to generalize under these circumstances. On the other hand human's are dangerous creatures. Just look at your email box in the morning. 1/2 of it is someone trying to scam you. 75% of the non prescription pills at your local pharmacy are a scam. There are people who will rip off your grandmother's life savings leaving her destitute. This is nature at work. It is all about survival. It is kill or be killed in modern terms. Maybe some day we will evolve out of this but that is a long way off. |
mijostyn ... As for a double blind is concerned that depends on the honesty of the principle. Just saying something like, "don't you think this sound's better?'" ruins the test entirely. You have to stay perfectly neutral. This sort of thing is hardly ever done.What you're describing isn't a double-blind test. In a DBT, the proctor doesn't know the identity of what's being evaluated - he's "blind." That's what makes the test "double-blind." |
fill my bottles with conditioner I bought down at the drug store for $2 a bottle. I sell my bottles in nice store, or at an artisanal market, and a few people tweet that it works really well, and I use their quotes in my ads... then I think I am not a snake oil salesman, but a businessman. You're a snake oil salesman who could end up facing lawsuits. Granted if done on a very small scale the odds of being caught perpetrating this fraud is low. |
- 38 posts total