Dear @handymann : You are using those subwoofers as bass re-inforcement, your call but is not the way to use it and I can tell you that the gentlemans that gave you that kind of advise were and are totally wrong.
You need high-pass filter for you can use those subwoofers along the Wilson speakers in the correct way. Till you make that kind of set up you can't know what you could need.
My advise is to do it and stop to think on that room treatment of 15 hz filter that only makes a signal degradations.
The " ball " is in your field.
regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @handymann : I assume that the ARO told you that those subwoofers positions gives you " flat " bass response, rigth?
Now, in any stereo audio system with passive main speakers and powered subwoofers those main speakers must be running as " satellite " ones, this means running from around 80 hz and up and the subwoofers covering from 80 hz and down.
But even that you could have " flat " response at your seat position you need to test the response at TT position that’s where the problem is happening.
You said that you already " play " with different locations for the subs and this subs position is critical when we want that the subs be perfectly integrated to the stereo audio system.
In my case and after more than a year " playing " with the best location in my room/system is both subwoofers rigth in front of the speakers facing each to other ( not facing at seat position. ), are in a " free " space.
Now, the first and main target when we integrated a pair of powered subs in a " passive " system is that IMD/THD goes really down, first at the main speakers and as consequence of that to the whole audio system.
Second target is to improve the quality level reproduction of the bass range ( that’s the foundation of the MUSIC, it’s where MUSIC belongs. Not at the mid-range. ).
Third target is to add a half or one and half bass octave to the audio system.
Main target when subs are integrated in the system is: that we can’t " hear " those subwoofers, that we be aware of only when the recording ask for, this means that the SPL/volume subs set up must be just PERFECT and stay that way always and not be change it by us depending on the recordings we are listening: NO.
In the other side. the THD of your subwoofers is really high when its specs says around 10% at 50hz at 120db, this figure is not a good one. My Velodyne’s has 0.5% not at 50 hz but at 20 hz ! ! ! . Big and critical differences.
Try to make those tests at TT position and that main speakers only handle the frequency range from 80 hz and up, play again with subs position and critical that SPL/volume on those subs that must be fixed.
Regrads and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Btw, 85 db at seat position is something that when subs are well integrated in the system produce no single problem. I measured SPL at my seat position over 95 dbs with out be awared of problems down there. My TTs are in between the speakers.
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Dear @handymann : Do you own other LOMC cartridge you can test on that TT/tonearm?.
I'm not talking that you make tests with other cartridge tapping the TT but just listen at those SPL with LP recordings that has high low bass.
Btw, which cartridge did you use it before the XV-1s where I could think you did not aware of the problem or you had it?
I think that first than all is to be aware if those high low bass room SPL affects the racks you are using in the system. Remember that at room corners low bass SPL is " concentrated " and with subwoofers that goes as low 10hz or even lower with high SPL at the volume its distortion levels goes higher than normal . In other side maybe the subs are reproducing low bass oscilations that comes elsewhere from the system but I can't be sure on this.
The plinth tapping is non adequated test for your problem rigth now. First you have to identify where is generated the problem and depending this will be the solution or solutions.
Even maybe some friend (s ) can borrow you other cartridges to make those tests. Repeat not tapping.
You can check too that at those SPL/volume gain running the VPI TT but with the tonearm/cartridge at rest: take a look to the subwoofer drivers if exist any movement there or at the speakers woofers.
After those tests you and us can have a better " stage " of what's happening before to follow at " blind " way.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @atmasphere and friends: Damping is always welcomed and especially against undamped tonearm designs.
Now, resonat frequency can't change with damping. The only way that that frequency can change is if we modify effective mass and/or cartridge compliance. Of course that if we have that silicon damping type that mantain cartridge compliance out of work then it's another matters but this is almost imposible to happen.
@larryi said that in the Vector ( unipivot design. ) / SME tonearms to much damping and sound becomes lifeless/dull.
Now, he posted an additional example about with the Symposium items but both examples in true can't tell us that are overdampening in here but the other way around and let me explain it:
I'm totally convinced that we can't overdamp any audio item ( of course that unipivots that use silicon at the pivot can be overdamped when that damping impede the bearing function/movements. ) under normal circumstances.
We are accustomed to those " beningn/good " resonances @timeltel ( btw, welcome back. ) spoke but exist no real " good/welcomed " resonances.
Any vibrations/resonances in more or less way always degrade the audio signal information that was recorded in those LP grooves.
We want that what the cartridge pick-up down there be only music information something impossible to achieve. So next down " step " is to mantain those " resonances " at minimum and this includes the " good " ones.
I don't want to tolerate any audio signal degradation for whatever reasons that degradation comes and that's why damping is always welcomed. The Rock example is very good one as is too the WT one.
Sometime ago in other thread a gentleman posted that he did not like it the after market AT hold-down LP ( pump. ) because it puts the sound with the same atributes larry told us: lifeless and dull. For he these were a bad thing when in reality is a good thing because is reducing resonances/vibrations/degradation/distortions.
Overall problem with all those 3 damping examples is that we are accustomed to very high " resonances " that we like it because too many time living with but this fact does not means is rigth because is wrong.
That's why I always say that the important issue is not what we like it but how should be what we need to listen.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @larryi : You are rigth about that " resistance " that more than affect the cantilever could " affect " suspension but I think maybe not something to worry about and when this " trade-off ( that we don't know for sure it's a real trade-off. ) goes infavor of that better bass response then we have to go a head with. Remember that the foundation of music belongs to that frequency range.
In the other side the huge forces generated at stylus tip/grooves are of different kind and till we can measure we just can't know if that resistance is really " dangerous ". Could be that's compensated " some way ", maybe not but that kind of damping is welcomed because its virtues in favor of MUSIC.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @lewm : We can't argue against facts.
"
zeal to insult Raul " ? ?
Well, any ignorant, self masoquist and frustrated can't insult because just does not exist. Ignorance and frustration is a critical brain illness but who cares. Certainly not me ! !
Btw, here in town and between friends and as a joke when one gentleamn made a " mistake " on a discussion people say:
" hey, stop to make public your stupidity high levels. "
where " public " here means: shows to every one !
As I said: who cares.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @cleeds : Do you mean that you tested before bougth it in your today cartridge room/system?
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
@atmasphere : Yes, can be that way, a misunderstood.
R. |
Dear @atmasphere : Totally wrong. The sound not comes from the tonearm: it can't be that way. Sound comes from the cartridge, that's the difference. Infection is hearing the sound from the speakers.
"
When I have the volume at my normal level.... "
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @asvjerry : """
when I read the title of this thread, my first impression was that the tonearm was acting like a microphone... """
and you was and are rigth.
Btw, @cleeds : do you tested it? not yet?
Regrads and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @yogiboy : Curious that you linked stethoscopes because is an " audio " item that any audiophile must owns, good audio tool.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @infection : I unknow your complete audio system items and seems to me that at some time in this thread you was asking for a tonearm change even that at the end you stated: "
on't be buying another arm any time soon. "
But if you ( in the future. ) look to improve your analog experiences maybe you should " think " to own a better phono cartridge than your Skala.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @atmasphere : I think you have a misunderstood about because that's not the issue and not what the op asks.
Btw, nothing can tell us how any tonearm " will sound doing its job " till we listen it mounted and playing in our audio systems.
regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @infection : " if an arm which is tapped is quite dead, is this an indicator of a superior arm thus allowing to hear more of a cartridges characteristic...? "
A tonearm designer takes in count the cartridge needs and he defines the main targets he wants to fulfill in its design where good damping/isolation could be only one of his targets ( or not. ).
A tonearm is a whole characteristics item and each one characteristic enrich the tonearm overall quality performance.
Now, which are your targets?. If one of those targets is to have a dead silence event when tapping a tonearm then is your choice but you have to take in count several parameters as: cartridge characteristics/design, kind of plattform/base where the tonearm is mounted, tonearm internal wire quality, where in the arm wand you are tapping, intensity of that " tapping ", resolution system levels, etc, etc.
Taking in count all those and many other parameters and everything the same YES my choice will be the one with lower tapping sound.
In real playback conditions the tonearm/cartridge combination will not lives with tapping events but a good damped/isolated tonearm always is welcomed and helps to fulfill in better way those cartridge needs that means to mantain distortion levels at minimum through the tonearm design along each link in the system chain.
Btw, @geoffkait maybe that tapping sound could means almost nothing for some of us but I think is something to think about. In the other side, that ideal tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency works during playback when the compliance cartridge is working and interacting with the tonearm effective mass but when in rest status things are different.
Anyway, in that regards the cartridge function as a very sensitive microphone, it is a transducer.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @cleeds : I know is not a microphone and I know exactly how a cartridge works but in that behavior acts as it.
When we tap a tonearm/cartridge combination vibrations are developed and transmited to the cartridge that takes it as a " signal ".
Now, this has not to be controversial and please do it a favor:
take five different tonearm/combinations and ( in any audio system. ) tap/hit the tonearm and " listen ".
As I posted in different systems we need different volume levels on set up and way important is where we need to tap/hit the tonearm and the tap intensity levels. Do it as nearest you can to the headshell and then return here and share your first hand experiences about.
Of course that we can improve on it wrapping the tonearm arm wand or with what you want to do it but the issue is that that tap sound exist, is inherent down there. There is not perfect audio systems or tonearm/cartridge one combinations. Different kind of designs comes with different kind of trade-offs ! ! !
As I said, make the tests in your system and come back: easy, rigth? ! ! or do you already did it? yes?: ok: let us know exactly your proccess on those tests. Can be enligthed your experiences about.
Btw, any one can test it.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Dear @infection : What you are listening is totally normal because that tonearm has mounted a very sensitive microphone in that Skala cartridge ( or any cartridge, it does not matters. ) that when we tap a tonearm we can have that kind of tiny " sound ". Nothing wrong with that.
Now, the level of that tiny sound is different from tonearm to other one depending on the tonearm overall design and how well is dampening it self and of course the cartridge model.
Any one of us can test it and in more or less way we can have that experience. Maybe in some systems the system volume needs to be higher than in others and depends too where we tap/hit the tonearm.
Now, if you are satisfied with what you are listening in your LPs just forgeret about and enjoy what you have.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
