MC402 vs FPB 300cx

Florian,
They are wonderful amps and I really have yet to be disappointed in them, even when demoing them with multiple speaker brands. You can't go wrong and they have plenty of power to handle most any speaker, within reason and room size of course.
Brianmgrarcom, It isn't a situation reversal, just a recognition of gradation. I could have lived with the 402 for many years and been very happy. I ended up in a situation where it was a several month wait after the 402 failure and my dealer eased the pain of stepping into 501's. I think that that is one of this interest's greater aspects. The ability to compare and contrast and recognize difference, is not to swear allegiance or choose a "loser". I love most all of the Mac stuff I've heard when appropriately matched. With the 803D I just love the 501...

Now you heard what I was talking about when you heard the 402 with 803D. I guess now you know why I'm not much of a 402 fan.

I see this situation reversed. Having owned 802D's with the MC402, and other amps, I agree that it isn't best case scenario. Numerous people, including those here, have said that the 501's sound much better with the D series. The MC402 is a fine amp, it is too bad the B&W's don't sound good without massive amps.

Mhelming, you should not have written that - I,too, think about these 501s, and you only wet my appetite further...
Regards,
Florian Hassel

Yeah I have spoken to the dealer and am trading my 803S for the 803D. I really do like the presentation. The tweeter speaks for itself and the added bass output capabilitiy coupled with the sweeter top end seems to breathe a little more life into the midrange. And when switched from the 402, to the 501 (with the caveat that the 402 is a great amplifier and I enjoyed it throroughly) things opened up yet again and really seemed to utilize the greater dynamic capabilities of the D vs S. Although the 402 measures powerfully, you are right Audphile, the 501 sounds more powerful at all volumes, and even at low volumes you can hear the higher current capabilities. I am in love with the 803D/501 combo and I highly recommend a listen to anyone. I have arrived at a happy home for a while after much shuffling in the last year (B&K to Bryston to Mac stereo to Mac Monos) with a very helpful dealer.

Again on the power output of the 402: Mhelming is right - 400 watts are only the published minimum. The German magazine Audio reviewed the 402 and measured it and found, depending on the tap and the load, that the 402 was able to deliver up to more than 800 watts. I have Diapasons, which represent a 6 ohm load, and have them connected to the 8 ohm tap. From there, they get more than 600 watts sinewave, as was confirmed by a friend of mine, who works for one of the largest high end-importers here, and who came over with test equipment to check out the 402. He said it was one of the most powerful amps he ever measured.
Regards,
Florian Hassel

Mhelming, 803Ds are great speakers man! Now you heard what I was talking about when you heard the 402 with 803D. I guess now you know why I'm not much of a 402 fan.

My 402 failed about a month back (a strange erratic static sound when all is quiet without the amp connected to any sources, just speaker cables to speakers and on) and I couldnt get a replacement from Mac so my dealer cut me a deal on new 501's and I got 'em. They are a noticeable improvement and I have my eyes on a D series speaker (most likely 803 as I can't really figure out what I'd do with an 802 in terms of size) because my dealer tells me there is a B&W 800 series price increase scheduled for 2008 (January) to the tune of 15-20%.

But to get back to the thread I heard 501's driving 803D and they were pretty amazing, and only slightly behind the 802D in midrange performance. However, the same rig with a 402 I found much less involving and with a far smaller soundstage and dynamic presentation

I am wondering what the next steps will be as I want to eventually move toward 802d's.

I had the 802D's with the MC402 and didn't like it, I have heard/read that the 501's do much better with them.

Get the 802Ds first and see how it goes from there. I would think the Mac's recommendation on the hiogher end monoblocks is a good one....if you want to stay with McIntosh amps. For B&Ws the more power the better. But I heard the 803Ds wtih the MC501 amps and they did sound good.
There are lots of good amps out there, but if you like the Mac, go for the amp with most power if you;re talking B&Ws.
Just my opinion.

How hard were you pushing it to hear that? I am wondering what the next steps will be as I want to eventually move toward 802d's. I talked with McIntosh (Chuck as listed on the support site). He did speak a lot to the fact that the 803 is really a 4 or 5 ohm speaker with a few 64 ohm spikes that lead B&W to list it as an 8ohm speaker. The 802d is only harder to drive spending most of its time around 3-4 ohms. Is this information correct?

He also told me Mac is about 30% conservative, meaning out of the 4 ohm taps the 402 pushes closer to 600 watts per channel. I tried switiching around to the 8 ohm taps and heard a difference, but liked the 4 ohm tap better. He also told me 501's were the same amplifier circuit with a little more output capability due to power source. He advised the step up to be toward 1201's, not 501's, which would just be a lateral move when compared to the 402.

Interesting as I just want to arrive at an amp that will get the job done!!!! The 402 seems good for now, but we'll see when I arrive at the 802. Any thoughts?

As I mentioned above, with below 2ohm dips, my speakers at the time were very current demanding. The Mac had absolutely no problem at all handling this.

Neither did the Krell for that matter.

Mhelming, yes, by ear measure. If it fails this test, it doesn't really matter how it looks like on paper.

I auditioned the MC402 with B&W 803S. Did not like the way it handled the B&Ws, which are not an easy speaker to drive as the impedence goes into a 3ohm category.
Sound was good on normal listening levels but once pushed harder, it really didn't stay together that good.

Very much possible that you prefer Mac sound over Bryston...depends on a system context. I can see that.

Enjoy your MAC!

What were these difficult loads (specifically) low impedance speakers, large speakers? And what are you quantifying this with? Wattage? Current? Is this literally a by ear measure? I ask because I'm curious and as a relatively new-comer to the hobby (a year and a half in) I'm fascinated at the difference between ratings in power and actual sound. According to Mc there is greater than 100 amps current output per channel which would equate to a lot of watts, correct? I came from a Bryston 14b sst and like the sound of the Mac much more. It's much easier to listen to.

10-01-07: Mhelming
... Although they may have different outputs into those impedances, stop at 400 the MC402 does not...
Mhelming

Oh yeah? Where does it stop then? At 402?

Based on what I heard from this amplifier and its capabilities of driving a difficult load, I even doubt it makes 300w/ch so whatever that McIntosh rep said, I'd divide by 2(into 4) and by 4(into 2 ohms).

In response to the McIntosh producing power into impedance. The 400 WPC into 8,4,or 2 ohms is a manufacturer published MINIMUM. Dynamic specs are not published and I verified this with a McIntosh Rep who assured me the 402 was capable of far more than it's faceplate nomenclature, especially when driving into descending impedances. All other comparisons aside between the Krell and The Mac, this particular point of contention is completely false. Although they may have different outputs into those impedances, stop at 400 the MC402 does not...

Good point. I will let you know once I get em.

I think you made the right choice. You obviously liked the speakers a lot, so....

It's also a good thing to take a break from this for a while. Usually works for me. I get to appreciate the capabilities of the system once everything is back in place. I had no amplifier for almost 2 months at one point. It's tough, but it's not bad.

803Ds should be lots of fun!
Keep us posted.

Cool thanks for all the help...the fact you have played with all this stuff and have experience has been a tremendous help to me. And you are spot-on with all your comments. thank you!

I sold my 804Ns today, so they are on their way out, and I am going to save on the side for the 803Ds instead of using plastic-you get a better deal with cash anyway. Should have the remaining amount in about a month! Not bad right? Please, tell me it's not bad, cause I feel like I am going to go certifiably crazy without my music. Will definately be a withdrawal period.

PS-listened to the Aerial 9s today. Very nice speaker, nothing like a B&W. Very neutral, very unexciting looking and sounding-which is not necessarily a bad thing t be neutral. They did sound very nice though, but something about B&W has me hook line and sinker-no matter what I listen to. Also, I was all but done with this dealer when they told me a 803D has the same sound as an 802D, except less bass. They sound very different to me, and most others agree. They said they didn't even feel it was necessary to show the 803D. I almost laughed out loud, and I bet B&W would love to hear that. : )

haven't heard these cables. I think if you're getting the 803Ds then wait with cables. What will work now with your current speakers may not be what you want with the 803Ds. So if you are going for the 803Ds, change the cables then. IMO

Audphile...I think I am going to tackle that as a last step. I have always done things out of order and it seems to make things more difficult. What do you think about Kimber Select with this mix? Smooth and detailed.

Jc51373, great!
But I still think you should check out sp cables and ICs.

This amp is getting easier and easier to listen to...I underestimated how unbroken in it really was. It was only used for rear channels and only used twice...Maybe it actually wasn't an exaggeration. More and more I listen, more and more I get easier, sibilance fades.

Either way, I am getting 803D's within the next month or two..I freakin love em, and they are perfect for my set up.

Could be...My experience in the past with Nordost was too bright.

Jc51373, I would suggest trying something different than Nordost altogether. I am not sure if it is revealing system weaknesses or could it be that it is just plain wrong in that mix of components?

So at the moment, I am doing an A/B test between two single ended IC's in my system from source to Pre. One is my current Nordost Tyr and the other a lesser IC in the Nordost line up...Interesting differences. When I pull the Tyr out I loose a fairly noticable amount of sharp detail, and the other cable seems to round off the edge a little still providing acceptable detail, but overall I lose something. Not sure how to identify it completely, maybe channel seperation, detail, quietness, definately a smidge of emotion. I love the detail I get from the Tyr, but things are becoming clearer to me as I do tests like this. How much I can accompish with cable changes..Interesting learning process.

In the end it is probably just these speakers are limited with my new set up at moderate to high volume levels. Pisses me off, but I have only me to blame on that front. Personally I don't want to lose the detail from the Tyr to get the slight reduction of glare from the lesser IC. One thing is for sure, in doing this I am reminded that Tyr is a very impressive IC. And like you guys have said, contributing to revealing system weaknesses.

I would also suggest looking into the Cable Company's demo library. You pay in very little (5%) but get to try all kinds of stuff (PCs, ICs, and speaker cables). They also have a database of experience from other users and their specific gear that might also help speed up the process for you.

I am doing this with PCs. Buying and selling on AudiogoN is a valuable resource for sure...if done right, but this way you know exactly what you’re getting into ahead of time. Plus, that 5% goes towards any purchase you might make.

I haven’t actually done this yet myself, so maybe I am missing something. I have reserved some cables that should become available in the next week or two. You are also limited to their predetermined lengths. I think it is 1.5 meters for PCs and ICs, and 10 feet for speaker cables.

Dbld-thanks so much for your write up, helps to hear you had a similar experience.

I am getting a set of Aud 23's just to listen to in a week or so. I will start my search with those as far as speaker cables goes, then move along if they don't work to my liking. Synergistic Research? They make a cable specifically for B&W.

Although the culprit could be my interconnects in the end...Nordost from source to pre, from pre to amp. Possible.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I have a FPB-300C (the 400cx predecessor). Keep in mind, even from stand-by status, this amp seems to take about 30 minutes of playing to truly sound it best. As you have found, you can tell it’s working by the heat. You play quietly and it stays coolish-warm. When you turn it up, it gets downright hot…don’t touch your forearm to it when playing loud (from my experience).

Also, I began with the 8TC speaker cables (pre-Krell in my case), and I can tell you from my own experience that there is more "life" in other cables. The 8TC is decent, but your system has surpassed them for sure.

Regarding glare - to be honest, changes in my source have had the most profound effect on anything that could be considered glare. I have an Esoteric DV-50, and I didn't realize how much glare there was until The Upgrade Company worked it over. It is very strange to me how the music can become more extended at the top-end while at the same time having less glare and being easier to listen to, but that is what happened in my case. My description seems contradictory...I know. FWIW, only after the Upgrade Company did the work on my player did I ever notice significant changes with ICs and PCs as well. Before then, changes in those cables were nearly impossible to detect.

As far as speaker cabling; I have heard big changes in different speaker cables, and surprisingly, I have ended up with an all silver cable. I can hear it now from those reading this…eeesh...Krell AND silver...sounds bad right...not at all. These no-longer-available silver speaker cables give the music more body and "roundness/realness" than anything else I tried, and it is the only silver speaker cable I ever tried…I think.

As a suggestion, you might want to try Reality speaker cables. I tried them a few months back and I felt my existing cables were better (and should be for the price); nevertheless, the Reality cables gave a nice warmth and musicality to my system. They are not at all expensive and have a good return policy. Actually, I’d call them a bargain for the money.

Just my 2 cents…maybe it worth less than that.

I am going to contact Krell tomorrow and ask if there is the possibility that they could have forgot to ad them etc, and ask them to send me some as well. I might as well see what happens when I put them in there. Although the more I listen the less the sibilance is an issue. I think things could stand to warm up just a smidgen, and the Auditorium 23 could help that. They are copper, but so is what I have now-a double run of 8tc for each channel bi-wired. Only way to know, is simply to try em out.

I know for sure what would solve this issue, but unfortunately is it an $8k solution. 803Ds! Because what you mentioned early about the 804s could not be more true. If they were a little more chubbed-out in the bass area I wouldn't notice much glare. In that way though, the 804 almost acts like a nice two-way speaker, which for alot of what I listen to is not necessarily a bad thing. But in the end I like a well-rounded system that can do all things.

Sigh.....Rome wasn't built in a day, neither are uber priced 2 channel audio systems.

Well that changes things! Oh well. Someone at the factory probably just forgot to put some jumpers on the board. Or the Krell person got it backwards.

Caps hold a charge if they are isolated from chassis ground. In this case, they can hold a charge for months. No joke. I have seen this many times with big caps of modern design. But many amps have a bleeder resistor to chassis ground for draining the caps very quickly, mainly to avoid fuses blowing if there is a brief interruption of power. I have no idea which way your Krell is.

Arthur

I just opened the amp, and the the jumpers are NOT there..Meaning, caps are engaged, question answered. But who the heck took them off is the new question.

Audphile1-you just answered a question I had in my head...I was wondering that last night when I was looking inside, if there could be residual electricity. I will be careful.

I will tell, ya is marvelous looking inside this thing, incredible engineering.

I would give it shot and see since it is just a matter of changing a jumper setting. If you had to solder a cap in, I would forget it. I hope Krell comes through for you.

Arthur

Jc51373, whatever you do, be careful. The caps cary some voltage. You may want to unplug the amp several hours in advance to discharge the caps before you do this.

Audphile1-you just reminded me I have to call them..The directions on the coupling caps were less than good. I lifted the hood on it last night and was hesitant to unplug what I thought were the jumpers they were instructing. Things just didn't match the sub-par instructions they provide to do this.

Do you still think I should go for it now? What the heck right? IF it will soften a little I would be willing to try it.

Nwavesailor, I hear you...But I stand behind most of what I said about the Mac though. At the risk of this topic coming up again, the MC402 still sounded slow, etched, not smooth, predictable, no emotion and so on-in my system...I got a very good picture for the sonic signature of that amp regardless, and it just wasn't for me. Conversely, this Krell does everything I wanted it to outside of the sibilance I experienced before Cosecant, which I do believe I can resolve the small amount I have now.

At this point though you are right, in terms of the glare side-effect I experienced with the MAC, it most likely was my front end at the time.

Hi Jc,

I am glad you found the cause of the sibilance in your front end. The experience you had with the Mac MC-402 demo (bright, glaring, sibilant) was puzzling to those of use with this amp. When we change a component in the chain, we tend to look for the obvious cause and effect. In this case, the amp seemed to be the culprit. Your evaluation of the Mac may have been tainted due to another component in your system. Good luck with the new Krell amp.

Jc51373, so have you tried what Krell suggested?

Aball, Cosecant resolved about 80% of the sibilance I was experiencing. I am at a loss for words with the sound of this thing.

I am thinking the small remaining glare I might get could easily be resolved by a tweak.

Sure thing!

I have two other audio buddies here in town and one way we can track down what we are actually hearing is to swap gear and hear it in each other's systems. This is a great way to figure out what is good and what isn't - and to double check our feelings about them. Knowing this information is about the only way to truly assess what you actually have. If you have some friends you could do that with, you would find it extremely enlightening.

With all do respect to your KAV, the 400cx and MC402 are quite a step up. Unless you know for a fact that the rest of your gear is on par with these amps, you will never hear what the amps actually sound like. Only when the rest of the system is "better" than those amps will you be able to judge them accurately. This makes setting up a great system (for the money) a challenging task to say the least! It never seems clear what you are listening to. This is also why Audiogon is so popular for buying and selling - it is easy to make mistakes and end up in a never-ending merry-go-round of equipment changes by trying to hit what is essentially a moving target.

My solution to all this is to make all my upgrades in little baby steps and for each one, I try a range of power cords and interconnects to rule cables out of the equation and be able to triangulate to a final judgement before moving on (in addition to testing in others' setups). I also try to upgrade a little of everything as I go to avoid showing up the rest of my system with one big upgrade.

Oh, and since I used to be an N804 owner, I can say that those speakers reveal EVERYTHING. The 803 will be less revealing because their meatier bass will mask some of the ultimate resolution the 804's have. Lean bass definately accentuates system issues. It could be that when you go to 803s, your problems will "disappear" and your new amp will be perfect. I have also witnessed this effect first hand.

But it is great that you are looking at the rest of your gear first. This is the next best step IMO. Good luck, have fun, and try to keep your sanity in the process. :)

Arthur

Arthur, right on.

Jc51373, let the new source break in. Keep your system on and don't touch anything for several days. See if it gets better.
Sometimes when you move the wires the sound changes and the system needs time to settle again. I'm not kidding.

J, both the MAC and Krell FPB amps are more transparent than your KAV amp was.
Probably the case is that now you are revealing, through your FBP amp into the B&Ws, some of the weakest points of your system.

I know you said you've been through some speaker cables before and it was a waste. IMO now, since you have upgraded the amplification, it is time to look it over.

I would start with the interconnects. Especially the set between the source and the preamp. I would do this before the speaker cable change.

I almost completely exclude your speakers as the weak link and the cause of the problem you are having. Yes, they are not up to task with regards to reproducing the bass that the Krell is capable of delivering. In any other area, the speakers are fine.

If you are about to audition the speaker cables, this may be a good test for the rest of the system and your existing interconnects. See how everything sounds with these cables. What have changed for the better, what got worst, what qualities remained.

If you can, buy some used ICs here and try them out. Just make sure you are dealing with the brands/models that are easy to re-sell.

Interesting....So I will put that to the test for sure this week. Currently my front end is the Wavelength Brick, and will be the Cosecant this week, possibly today actually. The Cosecant is supposed to be significantly different so I will see if it is in fact upstream. Maybe also test with my Pioneer CD/DVD player-which is surprisingly good sounding actually.

Between Coupling Caps, upgrade to Cosecant, and speaker wire I could potentially beat this.

Thanks Aball! Some good points you have made on transparency.

Yeah but that doesn't necessarily mean the problem is the amps themselves - just that the amps revealed the problem to you. I have seen this before and in that case, it turned out to be the CD player that was the culprit but he couldn't tell it was the issue until he had upgraded his amps. It took him a long time to figure it out because he was convinced it was the amps doing it at first.

The system is only as good as the weakest link, unfortunately. When you upgrade something, you hear what you have upstream all the more. This is the tricky part about transparency.

Arthur

Good point, but it only happened/happened when they were inserted into the system.

If you are hearing glare from two nice and very different amps, then the problem may not be the amplifiers at all. I think I would start looking for problems elsewhere in the chain...

Arthur

Thanks Aball...Some good points you made. I am going to lift the hood on the amp today and remove the jumpers (per instructions from Krell) on the input stage of the amp itself.VTL is capacitively coupled on the output, so it is now double CC'd.

I will be impressed if it changes anything, expectations are low. Based on some of the points you made though and the fact my KAV was coupled on the input stage it makes sense to eliminate this as a possible solution to the glare.

The MC402 I had did this exact same thing, glared.

Jc51373, the Pass X250.5 was an excellent addition to my system. It is truly a world class amp. Resolving, dynamic and smooth. Really can't find any faults or anything I would like to improve on as far as amplification.

I am pretty surprised that you have to do some kind of mods to this amp to make it work with your preamp. Hmmmm

I think that the sibilance could be in part due to your interconnects and speaker cables. Do you experience this sibilance on all the recordings or just some?

Funny for Krell to recommend capacitive coupling! Did they say whether it is input or output coupling you need? I assume input since you mention your tube preamp (and yes, this is a good idea) but I have read some speaker designers say that lack of output amplifier coupling is the reason for glare - and not input coupling. I am not sure which is right but I would place my bet on output coupling, especially with B&W impedance curves. Output coupling can also be done with a capacitor but it is best to use a transformer (like tube amps and McIntosh amps). The transformer also allows for impedance decoupling which is a much more elegant solution that adding a simple cap (although it costs a lot more).

In many direct-coupled amps, the DC often gets shunted in the voltage gain stage anyway. The input coupling cap just makes sure that the input differential current mirrors are have proper midpoint bias. Adding a cap at the input can really distort the waveforms if the circuit isn't designed for it at the outset due to nonlinear frequency gain. This is also why I think output coupling might be what they were referring to. Hard to say which is best without a schematic of the amp however.

Also, you mention having 500 caps in the signal path. This is incorrect. The caps you see and think of are actually in parallel to the path and/or in the bias loop and not signal loop. The cap Krell is talking about is actually in SERIES with the signal path, whether input or output. Huge difference.

Arthur

Krell is recommending capacitively coupling the amp to resolve the glare issue-FPB is direct coupled of course. Something they recommend to do with Tube Preamps regardless, which I have. The KAV I owned before this FPB comes from the factory capacitively coupled. I personally think this is not the answer in trying to resolve sibilance, but the only thing that is compelling me to do it is the fact my KAV sounded great. Alot sweeter. If adding a capacitor into the signal path will change sibilance I will do it, but given the fact there already about 500 Caps already in the path, I have my doubts that adding one more will do much in softening glare.

Working in steps, taking deep breaths trying to be patient as I go..Otherwise, this thing is a boat anchor. : )