Since you seem very concerned with bass, you should stick with the Krell. However, if you really want awesome bass, the 804s are not a very good choice to begin with. I have a pair right now and they can't hold a candle to my 926s in bass performance. You would get a bigger bass improvement by changing speakers than by changing amps IMO. Not to mention it could cost you a lot less money too.
The 402 does have rounded bass which I interpret as a 3D sound rather than 2D slam but everyone sees it a bit differently. From what you've said, I think you will be happier with another Krell.
Arthur |
Glad you are finally looking past the 804s for real bass. I hoped you would take my advice. But the 803 do need a pretty large room to not sound boomy. The new 804S might be just the ticket for you and shouldn't be overlooked - they sound like a bigger speaker with more meat on the bottom when compared to your N804.
Arthur |
Hey, there you go! Testing the amp out in your system is the only way to get a clear answer. Bear in mind that at this level, there aren't any bad amps - it is just that some will work better or worse with your system and tastes.
Sounds like you know what you like. That is good - many people rely on others' opinions to make their decisions. It is true that my JM Labs have more rounded bass than the 804s but they also have more of it and subjectively deeper too. It is the difference between convex bass drivers like the 804s' and concave ones like the 926s'. It also has to do with the surround design. The larger excursion drivers with the wide and round surrounds will always have more bass (though sometimes less tight) than those with small or pleated surrounds. I have noticed this several times. The latter types have a hard time getting the bass out into the room - this is the part I don't like about my 804s. The 926s on the other hand, have bass that comes out at you and kicks you in the chest with the right amp. That is my preference. Other speakers with tight bass like B&Ws (in my experience) are ProAcs, Monitor Audios and Triangles. You might want to look into the new 804S. It has a very similar style to the N804 but with a bigger sound and smoother top end. There are great chances you would really love this new version.
Keep us posted on your experience with the MC402. Be careful not to make snap judgements based on first impressions - it will be a very different type of sound than what you are used to.
Arthur |
The McIntoshes take a very long time to break in. There are a lot of windings in there! You may never get to hear what it is really like since you'll only have it a few days. The treble will loosen up with some more time, so I am told.
It is true that the McIntosh amps can sound a tad bit slow. I don't think they are per se, but their weighty bass comes at a price. Everything is always a compromise. But with the right source, it is perfect. It boils down to system synergy. Even changing cables can make a real difference in pace and timing.
Glad to hear you are enjoying it so much. I have heard it in several systems now and feel it is one of the finest amplifiers around.
Arthur |
So strange you find the 402 aggravating and harsh at the same time as relaxed and weighty. I have never heard any amp that was that way. The Mcs I have heard are silky in the midrange and highs - almost too much so for some systems.
But also, you have to overcome familiarity. It is very hard for anyone to wrap their mind around that. I have dismissed equipment before and looking back, I am pretty sure it was simply because it wasn't like what I was used to. But if that is good enough for you, stick with my original suggestion - get a Krell.
Arthur |
Well that changes things! Oh well. Someone at the factory probably just forgot to put some jumpers on the board. Or the Krell person got it backwards.
Caps hold a charge if they are isolated from chassis ground. In this case, they can hold a charge for months. No joke. I have seen this many times with big caps of modern design. But many amps have a bleeder resistor to chassis ground for draining the caps very quickly, mainly to avoid fuses blowing if there is a brief interruption of power. I have no idea which way your Krell is.
Arthur |
Funny for Krell to recommend capacitive coupling! Did they say whether it is input or output coupling you need? I assume input since you mention your tube preamp (and yes, this is a good idea) but I have read some speaker designers say that lack of output amplifier coupling is the reason for glare - and not input coupling. I am not sure which is right but I would place my bet on output coupling, especially with B&W impedance curves. Output coupling can also be done with a capacitor but it is best to use a transformer (like tube amps and McIntosh amps). The transformer also allows for impedance decoupling which is a much more elegant solution that adding a simple cap (although it costs a lot more).
In many direct-coupled amps, the DC often gets shunted in the voltage gain stage anyway. The input coupling cap just makes sure that the input differential current mirrors are have proper midpoint bias. Adding a cap at the input can really distort the waveforms if the circuit isn't designed for it at the outset due to nonlinear frequency gain. This is also why I think output coupling might be what they were referring to. Hard to say which is best without a schematic of the amp however.
Also, you mention having 500 caps in the signal path. This is incorrect. The caps you see and think of are actually in parallel to the path and/or in the bias loop and not signal loop. The cap Krell is talking about is actually in SERIES with the signal path, whether input or output. Huge difference.
Arthur |
If you are hearing glare from two nice and very different amps, then the problem may not be the amplifiers at all. I think I would start looking for problems elsewhere in the chain...
Arthur |
Yeah but that doesn't necessarily mean the problem is the amps themselves - just that the amps revealed the problem to you. I have seen this before and in that case, it turned out to be the CD player that was the culprit but he couldn't tell it was the issue until he had upgraded his amps. It took him a long time to figure it out because he was convinced it was the amps doing it at first.
The system is only as good as the weakest link, unfortunately. When you upgrade something, you hear what you have upstream all the more. This is the tricky part about transparency.
Arthur |
Sure thing!
I have two other audio buddies here in town and one way we can track down what we are actually hearing is to swap gear and hear it in each other's systems. This is a great way to figure out what is good and what isn't - and to double check our feelings about them. Knowing this information is about the only way to truly assess what you actually have. If you have some friends you could do that with, you would find it extremely enlightening.
With all do respect to your KAV, the 400cx and MC402 are quite a step up. Unless you know for a fact that the rest of your gear is on par with these amps, you will never hear what the amps actually sound like. Only when the rest of the system is "better" than those amps will you be able to judge them accurately. This makes setting up a great system (for the money) a challenging task to say the least! It never seems clear what you are listening to. This is also why Audiogon is so popular for buying and selling - it is easy to make mistakes and end up in a never-ending merry-go-round of equipment changes by trying to hit what is essentially a moving target.
My solution to all this is to make all my upgrades in little baby steps and for each one, I try a range of power cords and interconnects to rule cables out of the equation and be able to triangulate to a final judgement before moving on (in addition to testing in others' setups). I also try to upgrade a little of everything as I go to avoid showing up the rest of my system with one big upgrade.
Oh, and since I used to be an N804 owner, I can say that those speakers reveal EVERYTHING. The 803 will be less revealing because their meatier bass will mask some of the ultimate resolution the 804's have. Lean bass definately accentuates system issues. It could be that when you go to 803s, your problems will "disappear" and your new amp will be perfect. I have also witnessed this effect first hand.
But it is great that you are looking at the rest of your gear first. This is the next best step IMO. Good luck, have fun, and try to keep your sanity in the process. :)
Arthur |
I would give it shot and see since it is just a matter of changing a jumper setting. If you had to solder a cap in, I would forget it. I hope Krell comes through for you.
Arthur |
