I have had the same experience with the 1050 which I bought in February. I would be inclined to think that a dedicated line would not make a difference.
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Yes a dedicated line will help; a related question often comes up; why spend any money on a good AC cord to the regenerator when perfect AC will come out anyway? My experience is that using a very good cord to the regenerator makes it sound better; PS Audio says this also and Shunyata says the most important AC cord in the system is the one between the wall and the conditioner. By extension we can see that quality of the AC line must also have an effect.
Here's a quote from the PS Audio website:
"The Power Plant concept acknowledges that we cannot control the quality of the homes incoming AC power, nor can we fully repair its problems. Instead we simply ignore the problems, start over and generate new AC, thus eliminating the problem entirely. There is no connection between the input and the output of a Power Plant."
So it would be double-speak to suggest that an upgraded power cord would have any effect on the output when also claiming that there is no connenction between the input and output.
Again, from the PS Audio website:
"The PS Audios Power Plant AC regenerator takes the power youre given from the utility, converts it to DC and then regenerates brand new and perfect power once again. For more than 13 years the Power Plants have been producing perfect AC all over the world, helping audio- and video-philes and people who simply want better results from their investment achieve the best their equipment can provide."
If the PerfectWave Power Plan is advertised to produce "perfect" power then it must be assumed that when you purchase one you don't need to upgrade the power cord to get perfect power.
To recommend an upgraded power cable would be hypocritical given their marketing.
I tend to agree with Mceljo. The PurePower AC regenerator takes any crap coming out of the wall, converts it to DC, which completely eliminates the grunge and then converts it again to CREATE brand new perfect sign wave 120V power which it stores in a bank of internal batteries and feeds the components this juice as needed.
The idea that the most important cable is from the wall to the power center was referring to a CONDITIONER, not a regenerator... totally different animal.
That said, I'm still very interested in hearing from anyone who has A/B'd this question with a regenerator. I'm not opposed to getting a dedicated line if there is something I'm missing here.
Stanwal, the tests PurePower has done on the juice coming out of the regenerator seems to suggest that it is actually "perfect" power... and considering the enormous difference it made in my system, it is believable.
Now as an aside, upgrading the power cord from the regenerator to my tube preamp made another enormous difference which I don't quite understand... anyone have any thoughts on why?
Assuming that the regenerator is producing perfect power the losses then start from that point through your system. It makes sense that if the new power cord does a better job of transferring the power to the preamp then you could hear a difference. All cables have some negative effect on the signal going through it since nothing is a perfect conductor.
Mceljo: That makes sense, my old cable must have been introducing some EMF grunge that did not come from the regenerator, but maybe picked up via air or proximity to other stock cables that are not shielded well.
Aside from shielding from EMF and EMI, I wonder if the upgraded cable's increased ability to transfer AC current also plays a factor? Either way, I'm upgrading all my power cords from the regenerator to components.
I have yet to be convinced that money spent on a dedicated AC line will pay off in sound quality.
The only convincing one should need is to consider the difference better shielded cables have made. The dedicated line is a no brainier ( 20 amp 10 or 12 awg), as it further isolates your gear from the rest of the house and gets everything (power related) off to the best start possible. I like to look at it this way if it's in my ability to effect the outcome of what I hear, I do my best to achieve maximum results from my gear, you can't choose the power cable running to your house, but once it hits the breaker it's all yours!
Hey Jdub39, you're killing me here... As an audiophile, I will do almost anything for better sound, and your reasoning is very much like my own... I want to believe, however, I'm trying to do what I always do, which is to "prove" to myself (and my wife, who lucky for me has very good ears) that what I'm spending money on is an audible improvement.
I can get dealers to let me audition cables with a money back guarantee... but have not found any electrician willing to let me audition his installment of a dedicated line in my home. Hence, the purpose of this posting.
Somewhere in A'gon-land there must be someone who has run a Blind A/B on this question.
If you're getting multiple new power cords, just install one from the wall to the regenerator and see if you can hear a differece. If placebo, or reality, show themselves, then upgrade that cable and consider a dedicated line, otherwise, put the cable back where it was purchased to go and listen in peace.
Hey Stanwal, I can't quite tell who you mean by YOU... you seem annoyed. Regardless, I just went to PS Audio's web site to read what you said they said, and found it to be unclear and not really in support of your post. And I quote, from their page on the AC12 top of line power cord:
"Use the AC12 in your most demanding audio situations. Between the wall or Power Plant Premier and your power amplifier, preamplifier, DAC or even the phono preamplifier."
Reading that sentence carefully, it says between the wall and your components, OR between the power regenerator and your components. They do NOT say between the wall and the power regenerator.
Whoever you're annoyed with, try to play nice. We're all just doing our hobby.
Alonski, it seems that Stanwall has answered the original question for you. Quote: I have tried cheaper one and it does make a difference.
Your question is if anybody has A-B'd a regenerator with and without a dedicated line. Surely if a power cord make a difference, a dedicated line would make a difference.
If Stanwall here's a difference... There might just be a difference.
Dedicated lines are cheap to install, maybe a couple hundred dollars, way less than a power cord, and you can never have too much power to your rig! I say add the line and see, then play with the cords as you'll know the incoming power is the best you can get and therefore will be best able to tell what the power cords do to your system.
This is what I would do and I think it is the cheapest next move for you!
OK ZMan and KennyT, I'm in. I thought adding a dedicated line would cost over $1000 nothing is really cheap in San Francisco! if it is indeed less than a good power cord, it's a good solution... then I can do a bunch of A/Bs and report back to anyone who is interested. Maybe I'll align with Stanwal... maybe Mceljo's logic will will prevail... either way it should be fun finding out.
Thanks to all of you for your thoughts.
The only benefit a dedicated line may have would be if you have a large power drop due to a long light gauge run, and a large high-power amp, that draws a lot of line power. This could cause voltage drops, but according to Pure Power, they even have this problem covered. If it does as promised, I don't see any benefit of changing anything before it. Link. [http://www.purepoweraps.com/comparison.htm]
Alonski, I have now or have had a variety of PS Audio products and have read the instructions that came with them. They DO say that the better the power cord used the better the regenerator will sound. If you would also look at the HIGHFICRITIC review of the PPP they point out that the power cord is a critical part of its function. Also an engineering friend of mine actually measured the difference in current between untreated, through the PPP , and through my VPI SDS. The SDS gave the best current, not surprising as its output is a fraction of that of the PPP. If the PPP was in fact "perfect" it would have been as good as the SDS. I do get a little irritated being lectured by someone who has glanced at the web site while I have actually used the gear myself; I try to confine myself to things I actually know something about, not make guesses based on my own preconceptions.
Stanwal - All I'm saying is that they way the PPP is advertised, an upgraded cord shouldn't be necessary. If there is, in fact, no connection between the input and output that implies that things in front cannot have an effect on the output. I have not done an A/B and considering that the PPP cost more than my entire system I doubt I'll ever have a reason to find out for myself.
By the way, it should always be expected that a company recommend it's products be used with it's products. I've always wondered why they just don't include their best cord with the PPP. I doubt it would really reduce the sales.
I guess someone needs to tell Pure Power their site is wrong. A power cord that's the same gauge wire won't change any current an amp draws. Link.[http://www.purepoweraps.com/regen.htm]
Also, either my sight is going bad, or they misprinted this copy of the owners manual. Link.[http://www.purepoweraps.com/pdf/PurePower%20120V%20manual%20-%20Aug%2008.pdf]
Ah, Stanwal Here we are again with the classic argument between reasonable logic and actual experience. We've probably all heard the famous audiophile mantra: "If it measures good and sounds bad, it's bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you're measuring the wrong thing."
I've also read (and I'm not sure I buy in to this theory) that human psychoacoustics can have us hearing what we expect to hear... kind of an aural placebo effect. I have sat in a room full of audiophile society members for a demo of Synergistic Research's Tibetan Prayer Bowl room treatment. Ted Denny was there and when he put a tiny metal bowl behind the couch in the back of the room, to me and most of the participants, it sounded better! Either we were all hypnotized, or it really works. My question is, does it matter? If I hang a rare and expensive dead muskrat from my ceiling and suddenly my system's previously sucked-out midrange blooms with life and it makes me smile, who cares if anyone else believes me!
I realize that this question will never be answered for me unless I do this myself... I am waiting for a quote from my electrician for a 20amp dedicated line with 10 gauge wire. I'll probably order a Maestro wall outlet to give this experiment the best chance of revealing the truth. As long as the cost is reasonable, I'm going for it. I'll chime in once I have it installed and report my impressions. I'll even A/B it against the dead muskrat (which has proven to have really low WAF).
What were you referring to when you wrote that they misprinted the Pure Power owner's manual?
BTW, I bought my first audiophile gear at Hi Fi Haven, which was a high-end audio dealer in my college neighborhood in NJ. This was not a part of town you'd expect an audio store, on it's left was a strip club and on its right was Greasy Tony's Cheesesteaks, which was open all night and staffed with the shadiest motley crew imaginable. Ah, you gotta love college in NJ in 1980. Most of my friends frequented the two latter businesses, I think I was the only one who added HiFi Haven as a point of interest.
Alonski, that would be in reference to the comment made stating they regenerate the power, not make it perfect. And it appears that some believe a regenerators output would be influenced by its input. Also, an upgraded power cord should be used before the regenerator. If the product is designed right, it wouldn't have any influence on it. The information from Pure Power states "so there is no opportunity for outside influences to introduce unwanted waveform distortions." That alone tells me their product is doing the job right. If another manufacturer says something like a power cord should be used before it, it must have a design problem IMO. If it changes with just a power cord (small influence) before it, how is it supposed to keep the noise from the dirty power (major influence) from getting through, and giving you true new pure power? So one company's manual does not work for all in this case. I would believe the info provided by Pure Power. I would not go by what the other company says you need for their product. Pure Power should know how their product works also. They designed it.
A commonly stated rationale for upgraded power cords, which IMO is plausible, is the fact that the shielding they provide can prevent rfi (radio frequency interference) that may be generated by the power supply of an amplifier from escaping and coupling onto sensitive points elsewhere in the system, with unpredictable effects.
It should be kept in mind that a regenerator is essentially a power amplifier, having its own power supply, which amplifies the output of an internal 60Hz oscillator. Therefore that same rationale that applies to amplifier power cords would seem applicable to regenerator power cords.
It should be kept in mind, though, that any benefits from rfi containment will be unpredictable and highly system dependent. It should also be kept in mind that high quality shielding does not necessarily cost a great deal.
And of course this consideration implies nothing with respect to the desirability of a dedicated line for a regenerator.
In regards to the PPP, it is not a pure regenerator, but more of a power conditioner. The PPP, from what I understand, tracks the input voltage and makes adjustments to it as needed. There is no regeneration, just conditioning. So in this example, yes a power cord would make a difference.
In a true regenerator, such as the P-500 from PS Audio, the input voltage is converted to DC then back to AC. In this case, a power cord shouldn't make a difference. That being said, the P-500 operates like an amplifier and we generally upgrade amplifier cords with excellent results.
Dedicated lines! Of course they make a difference. Maybe the biggest difference when you look at sonic improvement for $$. If you have an open basement, it really is a no brainer. If you have to run new lines between the walls, that is a pain and can be costly.
But really, I've installed 24 homeruns in my listening room when it was built. I've yet to find a component that wasn't somewhat of a pig and loved having its own dedicated line. Some manufacturers, like Krell, in the first pages of the owner's manual, recommend this to be done before you even purchase a Krell amp and plug it in.
Over the years, I've heard many people are unhappy about the way the Krell amps sound in the high frequencies. I would bet that they have other components plugged into the same electrical line as their Krell amp. In my experience with Krells and other large amps, are like pigs and don't want to share from the same trough.
I'm now in the process of running a direct line to my computer server which stores all my music files and one to the cable and WiFi modems. And of course there is only one reason, to enhance the quality of the sound.
Oh, and as an owner of several power conditioners/regernerators, there is no doubt that supplying it with the best power cord one can find, will take they're performance up a notch or two. Of course, if you want to make more not so subtle mprovements, upgrade to better outlets, and change out the fuses for some of those new audio grade fuses that are causing such a stir. . .
I don't know the electrical reasons or explanations for these audible effects, and it seems strange that all of these tweaks make a difference but they do.
"I'm now in the process of running a direct line to my computer server which stores all my music files and one to the cable and WiFi modems. And of course there is only one reason, to enhance the quality of the sound." - Sgr
As a point of humor, a dedicated line implies that it's for a single piece of equipment and not "modems" plural.
I think you're going way overboard here but have no doubt that you'll hear the improvements that you anticipate hearing.
As for the point of regenerators performing like power amplifiers and therefore being candidates for power cord upgrades, I'd say that a power cord might result in an improvement when connected to a regenerator, but it would be for reason that are unrelated to the regenerator. Al discussed some reason for why an improvement might be noticed, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the regenerator is benefiting from the upgraded power cable.
The original question in this thread was if a regenerator would benefit from an upgraded power cord. I would say absolutely as long as their marketing is factual, but this doesn't preclude the overall system being improved by upgrading the power cord. Understand the difference? This may be where experience and rational logic meet.
OK, Gentlemen, here's something that should stir up some controversy: an actual A/B comparison!
Some background: it's after 3:30AM and in a few hours my electrician is coming to do some work at the house, including, if I want, dedicated 20A lines to my stack of gear.
Had an idea for an A/B test tonight that I wanted to check out before the dedicated lines were installed: would there be any audible difference between using a high quality power cord from the wall to the Purepower 1050 AC Regenerator, versus, wait for it... using NO CORD AT ALL?
Let me explain: unlike any other AC regenerator I know of, PurePower claims that when using it there is absolutely no connection between the unit (and therefore your components) and the power company supplied AC at the wall outlet.
The PurePower takes the wall power, converts it to DC (which strips away all the AC grunge) and then converts it to AC again (this time clean, steady and perfect power) and then stores this newly created power in a bank of super high current batteries which are completely isolated from the power company, that feed fast, perfect sine-wave 120V power to the components. This means that I can be listening to music at concert level volume and if the whole neighborhood has a black-out, my tubes will still glow and my music will continue playing at the same volume for 10 minutes running off the batteries!
Essentially, this means I can take the highest quality AC power cable I can get my hands on, connect it from the wall outlet to the Purepower, and A/B it versus using NO CORD AT ALL (when the cable is unplugged from the Purepower, making it use its batteries).
Please comment on my premise here if you find any holes in my logic it seems to me that if the cable sounds in any way different from no cable at all, that means that a cable CAN influence the components connected to the regenerator, and therefore dedicated lines, high quality receptacles and super high-end power cords should make a big difference, right? And therefore, if THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in sound between no cable and high-end cable, that means that expensive cable, dedicated lines, super high-grade outlets as well as anything else from the regenerator on back to the local power station might be a waste of money. If you're still with me, here's how I did the A/B:
Pulling my very heavy rack from the wall, I exposed the 40 year old original wall receptacle imbedded into the concrete floor. As far as I can tell, it has never been replaced. The circuit this outlet belongs to has a ghastly variety of power offenders on it space heaters, dimmers, compact florescent lights, cordless phones, computers and wi-fi routers. This is the circuit I have the Purepower regenerator plugged in to.
My VAC tube preamp has been on all day, and I switched on my Ray Samuels Audio "Raptor" tube headphone amp (arguably one of the best in the world) and let it warm up with music, driving my AKG K702 headphones for over an hour. This is an incredibly resolving system as every change in volume, tone, soundstage, air, and distortion of any kind is immediately and irrefutably audible.
I put on my best recorded cd (Midnight Sugar on 3 Blind Mice Records, which I've been listening to for years and know very well) and sat down against the wall next to the power cord connecting the wall to the regenerator. The music was gorgeously rich, balanced and detailed just as I know it to be played on this configuration. I listened for about 10 minutes, enjoying myself thoroughly then, in the middle of the title track, I braced myself and yanked the power cord out of the socket. I prepared myself for a pop, a change in volume, a click as it switched to battery power, a change in tone, or the depth and definition in the lowest octaves NOTHING. No pops, no shifts, no disruption, no audible change whatsoever, just a seamless, uninterrupted continuum of beautiful jazz. I was amazed, and continued sitting there yanking out and plugging in that cable at least ten more times to no avail. There was absolutely NO DIFFERENCE!
This proves to my satisfaction Purepower's claim that their unit completely separates my components from any power issue that lurks before my regenerator. Truth in advertising is always refreshing. Now I know why this regenerator, which replaced my AC conditioner, was one of my most satisfying and dramatic upgrades ever.
One interesting addendum: replacing the stock power cables from the regenerator to each component (one at a time) with high-end cords made an immediate and obvious improvement in sound quality! Interesting, huh?
As for the electrician tomorrow I'm an audiophool at heart, so if the cost is not too bad, I'll probably have the dedicated lines installed anyway, along with the Maestro wall outlet I just received. Then, I'll do the same A/B comparison again, and if I get different results, I'll just go ahead and kill myself to avoid the embarrassment.
Any thoughts on my process or methodology are welcome, as are challenges, rants, and questions. Thanks for reading, you're obviously as crazy as I am.
Inna, I will do that, probably tonight. Right now, the electrician is here and he gave me a quote to run two 20A dedicated lines from the main panel to my gear (about 40 ft. of conduit) with 10/3 wire for about $600! I mentioned on this thread earlier that San francisco prices for just about anything are about double that of other areas in the country.
I have about 3 hours before he needs a decision. Considering the results of my A/B comparison so far, I'm not sure the investment would pay off... $600 buys a lot of vinyl...
Wasted money is wasted money and it could be put into something better like vinyl.
From my perspective, there are two main things to consider. First, the advertised engineering behind the product strongly states, from a logical perspective, that an upgraded power cord should NOT make any difference. Second, if you assume that the manufacture is being honest in their adversiting and you do hear a difference with an upgraded power cord the logical conclusion is that it's for a different reason other than it actually improving the output of the regenerator. As Al mentioned earlier, there can be differences from using shielded power cords because they isolate themselves from other sensitive components and/or cables. If this is true, then it still doesn't matter what is behind the outlet unless you're planning to run 100% shielded lines and this is unlikely.
Just because you hear a difference in an A/B doesn't mean that it's due to a change at the output on the regenerator. Don't forget this fact.
I did what I said I would do, and finally, this one-man jury has reached a verdict.
Conclusion: In all the A/B tests and experimentation I've conducted since my original post, I have arrived at the answer that in my system, high-end power cables connected AFTER the AC regenerator (i.e. from the Purepower 1050 to the preamp, another to the amp and one to each of the source components made a significant and immediate improvement in midrange clarity, bass articulation, depth, and shear musical impact.
On the other hand, anything I installed in the chain BEFORE the AC regenerator (i.e high end power cable from the wall to the Purepower 1050, high-end wall receptacle, as well as a 20Amp dedicated line that cost me over $500 -- made absolutely no audible difference at all.
My expensive conclusion is that the PurePower 1050 is doing exactly what they claim it does no matter what crap comes out of the wall, be it dirty power from the grid, erratic voltage drops or spikes, whatever, it doesn't seem to matter -- the Purepower doesn't care -- it strips out the grunge from the AC by converting it, waxing it, polishing it, and generally having its way with it to create brand-new, virgin, perfectly shaped sine-wave, completely steady 120V AC with copious headroom reserves for instantaneous availability to all components. This unit has transformed my system in so many ways. Aside from the usual inner micro details that have emerged from the deep, music is much more dynamic, richer, with faster attack than I've ever heard.
No I'm not on their payroll, just a happy customer. This is the best $2500 I ever spent upgrading my system. See if you can borrow one somehow and hear for yourself. And please, don't lump this remarkable product in with power conditioners and filters, no matter how expensive. This is a different animal altogether. If you have any questions, please ask. Alonski out.
Mceljo, Yeah, refreshing isn't it? What I appreciate about them is absence of hype, availability of technical white papers to back up their findings, and they let their customers do the rest with glowing testimonials from all over the world.
Snopro, I totally believe you, it just wasn't my experience in my system. Two things come to mind: First, it's possible that results are system dependent, especially with differences in amps. Second possibility is that in the years since your test, Purepower has improved the 1050 significantly.
Either way, I'm willing to forge ahead I ordered another high-end power cord to test, and the first place I'll plug it into is between the wall and the 1050 and repeat the many tests I did, again (luckily I enjoy this madness). I'll report back with an update.