Q above: "I have been afraid to ask this question... What effect does having a 65 Inch HD projection TV in between main's have?"
A: Your IQ goes down 3db.
I know this from experience. I have a 130" and mine went down 6db.
Try positioning your main L and R speakers a foot or so in FRONT of the television (i.e., closer to the listening position), so that the TV isn't directly in the path of your speaker plane. That will definitely help some . . . .
I've also recently been told that putting a heavy blanket over your TV during 2-channel listening will also help out, by partially eliminating that huge reflective surface. I've tried it with my 51" RPTV, and it IS a plus.
I would also think it would be better to have the speakers equidistant from the TV, if at all possible . . . .
That's true, but I've found an even more direct correlation between a geometric decrease in IQ and the number of Chris Farley movies one owns . . . .
IQ = (OIQ (1/i * 100)) / CSF(n)
OIQ = original pre-AV IQ
i = diagonal inches of TV
CSF = the Constant Stupidity Factor, or 1,000,000
n = the number of Chris Farley movies owned
You forgot the F (frequency). The boob tube is AC and therefore is frequency dependent. The frequency of showings must be considered.
I think you have to divide the whole thing by 2piF where F is frequency of showings per day. Think of the Boobtube as a low(IQ) pass filter.
Of course, being down 6db myself I can never keep this stuff straight anymore.
Tsrat--I went to grad school at the same university where Mr. Farley was an undergraduate (Marquette). Do I have to deduct extra points? I also went to college at the same school used in the Tom Green epic vehicle "Road Trip" (Ithaca). Will that also cost me points?
Let's assume that the answer is "yes" to both questions...do the math...carry the four...
My IQ is -17.568.
I did a thread about this a year or so ago...but the thing that having a TV is an audio system that is the big concern..is your cable signal.
I have never seen a cable feed that doesn't have serious noise and DC voltage on the ground. Once this DC voltage gets onto the grounds of you power and systems..the sonic impact is far from subtle...most of you actually don't know what your missing if it has been a long time...or never, since you had just an audio system.
You can check this two ways. Get someone to lend you a voltmeter and measure the ground on the cable TV feed. But even better , and this is assuming a home, go outside and disconect the cable where it comes into your home and the cable ground that has been attached to that pipe that serves as your AC ground. Then go inside and disconnect the TV cable/digital box completely from your system...inc. AC power. Then, after this simplification, just connect your best source component to you amplification..and listen. Noise floor will be lower, voices will bloom...and listener fatigue will drop a great deal. (If your not familiar with cable/ground...etc. you might get a friend to help you...don't want anyone screwing up their system....or getting a shock..even if it is only static shock).
So, what I am saying is the worst thing about televisions and their related gear is: they screw up the sound.
I have a 53" TV inbetween my front speakers, and my friends really wonder how I get the kind of imaging I get (which is very good).
The key as stated above, is to push the TV back against the wall as far as possible and bring the speakers forward so they clear the TV. With this configuration, the TV can make a minimal impact on soundstage. Or at least the TV will make A LOT less impact on the soundstage than the speakers NOT clearing the TV (the TV anctually being in the same plane as the TV.
Albert has his monitor on rollers & actually removes it from the listenng room altogether for serious 2 channel performance, then rolls it back into place for video. Realize that's not what you wanted to hear but there it is; the blanket method is better than nothing though.
Why not just try it with / without blanket/ vs. completely removed, & find out what happens?
Clueless i think the biggest drop in my IQ came
when i started getting intrested in good gear.
That took my IQ from a SOLID 20 to A QUESTIONABLE
10. Now i just sit a drool all day and listen
to music. Its getting worse too.
Some of you guys odviously didnt listen to Matt
Foleys speech on Pot. Classic Farley.. I admit
I have one of his movies. Beverly hills ninja.
Thanks for all responses. Especially Bob good to hear
from you. I will push the monster back some more and bring
speakers up. The thing weighs about 400lb if it wasnt for
the rollers it would be even worse. HD broadcast are
definetly impressive but Im thinking a HD Flat panel display
might fix problem. Im especially concerned when i upgrade
speakers from Infinity's. They are the IL's they have
C.M.M.D. drivers. I believe they are aluminum with ceramic
coating. Im running 4 floorstanders for mains and rears and
two centers for front center and back center. For price point i would give them a 10. For overall i would give them a 6-7. They are biwireable also... something you dont see to much on mid priced speakers. Im leaning toward Revel's for replacements. I had a lenghty audition with them and i really liked them. I have been trying to put together a six channel system that would do everything well (ok guys now laugh) I bought a Bel Canto EVO6 that is just amazing and once i get the Revels I will get another for Diff bridge mode. And I already have some pretty good
wires (analaysis plus oval 12's) biwired for all six speakers. So Im on my way.. One thing i am afraid of is my room and my TV screwin things up. I will probably call in
an expert for room treatment. I found one of the best
available is in my area.
I am going to look into cable noise issue. I actually use three pwr conditioners.. TV, DVD, SAT, CABLE on one. All audio on another and one dedicated for sub. I have an UNWANTED buzz that i have always blamed on my PRE. I initially thought it was a ground loop problem
so i played with that for awhile couldent get rid of it.
I will investigate cable as culprit...
Thanks again to EVERYONE!
Actually, and truthfully, if you are doing the CORNER PLACMENT THING, you're dealing with alot of issues, not just TV INTERFERENCE! The interference with the TV will be a problem if your speakers are casting REFLECTION POINTS back to your ears from the speakers themselves! So, if the speakers are, say, out infront of your TV, and the sound reflects off your speakers, back to the tv, then back to your ears, then you're getting immage smearing and blurring!
If you're speakers are behind the edges of the TV, then you're getting more of the CUPPED-HANDS effect sonically! Also, you're getting VERY IMMEDIATE reflections off your side walls next to your speakers, that are mixing with the dirrect sound, which causes the same kinds of anomolies...not good. IN addition, the big tv DOES affect teh bass response samwhat in different frequency reigions, depending. (one way to figure this, if you cared, is to measure the bass response with and without the TV pressent!). Also, yes more, you'll not be getting the same frequency response from speaker to speaker in this set up, and you'll have different sound from each speaker accordingly!
Personally, I've never heard a corner placement set up work well, ever!!! I am more of an advocate of SYMETRICAL arrangements, as they tend to yeild a better foundation with which to work with..but you gotta do what you gotta do.
At any rate, the TV has an affect depending on a lot of variables in your set up.
If you MUST KNOW THE TRUTH, then I'd say you have at least 100% or more better sounic potential at your disposal with ANOTHER SET UP SCHEME!!! Placement of both speakers, seats, and acoustic treatment considerations, acounts for at least, AT LEAST, 60% of your over all sound! That's no understatment. And ANY GOOD PRO AUDIO REVIEWER worth his/her salt will tell you about the same!
61" Toshiba between my NHT 3.3's. Fortunately, my room is deep enough (23'), that I've moved the 33" deep 3.3's a few inches from the wall, moving the faces of the speakers almost 10" forward of the screen. Imaging is great, although at higher SPL's (95 dB+/-)the side-firing woofers tend to rattle the bezel and cabinet of the TV. I've got about a foot between the speakers and the TV. The logical evolution will be to justify the front projection system. With a 9' high wall and vaulted ceiling, I figure I can get away with a 10' screen. The room is 18' wide.
Fun thread. Hope this all helps. The problem with the power
conditioners...they still keep the ground, and that is where
the cable/digital signal has the DC voltage on it.
A buzz or hum is usually the first thing you notice, near the
speakers but not affected by volume. However the bigger
concern is more complete in what having DC introduced onto
the grounds of your system does to the overall sonic quality.
Also, some of the divices that are claimed to correct this
concern cannot...because digital TV uses the ground as part
of the signal.
Everyone.. Thanks for input... Its really cool you guys
take the time to help out inspiring newcombers.
I had a hunch someone was going to tell me
to go to a more symetrical setup. I can do
that but i will be blocking a window with TV.
But i have been waiting for reason to do it.
So hell with the window. The thing i was most
concerened about is the immediate reflections
you mentioned from speaker side to side walls.
The drivers are pointed in a way that it looks
like there would be minimal reflections on sides
but the left main is wedged between TV and wall.
Bad news i guess. The other thing i am worried
about is the effect on bass as you mentioned.
I cant hear any ILL effects but i know there is
plenty room for improvement.
I want a cool handle like you guys have. I
may be changing soon.. You will know when you see
"the artist formerly knows as Spluta"
appears after new handle.
Yes the front projection would be exclellent or im thinking
one of those 4" thick plasma's nice and far back from speakers. Mine is Toshiba also 65h80 I love the thing... beautiful picture ...The best i have seen but the cabinet is just to damn big for my new house.
You have explained the symptoms exactly. I did run the cable thru the PWR conditioners cable filtering and it impoved signal noticiably but it never crossed my mind that the grounds were being contaminated. The other thing is when i turn the TV on and the audio is idle (I leave the pre and amp on and turn everything else off) the buzz is much more evident. I guess thats when it really starts broadcasting and crosstalk gets worse.
What did you do to remedy situation? Please advise...
The best answer is to have an audio system and a home theater system...anything less is do-able, but a trade-off at best.
Best of success, Jim
P.S. My id. comes from a Firesign Theater cut called: "Nick Danger...Third Eye". You may want to find the old MFSL CD of this....very funny...and the word "what" plays a major roll.