Does anyone use wood for vibration control?


What kind of wood have you found to be best?
bksherm

Showing 50 responses by geoffkait

Power to the people! ✊
Just came back from demo of our new Mystery CD Tweak, a resonance control device applied to the CD. The biggest gains in dynamic range, signal to noise ratio, transparency, soundstage, solidarity of images, resolution, articulation, lack of distortion, bass performance, tonality and air your humble narrator ever heard. Test System A already had New Dark Matter installed. Good luck to everybody out there.
perkri53 posts05-01-2019 10:06pmDon't want them bouncing and taking out an eye  :)

>>>>By the same token you don’t want them too Stiff. Otherwise they won’t do anything. 

It certainly makes sense that you would back a two time loser. But he was a good guy. At least he had a candy named after him.

Is it true that streaming is for lazy frustrated older guys?
OK, here’s what I’m going to do. I will provide the new Mystery CD Tweak free (that’s right - free!) to everyone who purchases New Dark Matter at full price. LIMITED TIME OFFER! How ‘bout them apples? But for right now it’s very hush hush.
I’m still thinking about the question. 😬
Getting back to the subject (briefly) have I mentioned my latest breakthrough? Oh, it’s big. Big big. Bigger than big. You see, as it turns out the %&@!# CD, that thin wimpy out of round wafer of plastic and sputtered metal flutters and vibrates and rings like crazy. There is no way the error correct routines and laser servo mechanism can keep up! This is one of the main problems audiophiles who listen to CDs face, it’s no wonder they have been frustrated with the generic, compressed and blurry sound of CDs generally. And who knew? Background scattered light and CD vibration have been holding audiophiles back for almost 40 years. All that is about to change. 

NikolaTesla legacy. At least he tried. This is all apparently another case of glubson following the wrong sheep. 🐑 🐑 🐑 🚶‍♂️

Nikola Tesla annual electric vehicle rally in Croatia[279]

Tesla, a 26 kilometer-wide crater on the far side of the moon[284]

"Tesla Girls", a song by British pop band Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark, released in 1984

SS Nikola Tesla, a Liberty Shiplaid down 31 August 1943, launched 25 September 1943, sold from government service in 1947, and scrapped 1970

2244 Tesla, a minor planet[284]

Tesla, an SI-derived unit of magnetic flux density (or magnetic inductivity)

Tesla, an American rock band formed in Sacramento, California, in late 1982

Tesla, an electrotechnical conglomerate in the former Czechoslovakia

Tesla, Inc, an American electric car manufacturer[270]


Just what we need. Another comedian.

A photon checks into a hotel. The bellhop asks, “Can I take your luggage?” The photon replies, “I don’t have luggage. I’m traveling light!”
Re Marconi vs Tesla.

(Of course Tesla also was known for his work on DC power.)

Marconi won the Nobel prize for wireless communication. Marconi was the first to achieve trans Atlantic radio communication. While it’s true Tesla applied for lots of patents for radio communication he was never able to achieve long distance radio communication. 

“There, he (Tesla) conducted experiments with a large coil operating in the megavolts range, producing artificial lightning (and thunder) consisting of millions of volts and discharges of up to 135 feet (41 m) in length,[146] and, at one point, inadvertently burned out the generator in El Paso, causing a power outage.[147] The observations he made of the electronic noise of lightning strikes, led him to (incorrectly) conclude[148][149] that he could use the entire globe of the Earth to conduct electrical energy.

During his time at his laboratory, Tesla observed unusual signals from his receiver which he speculated to be communications from another planet. He mentioned them in a letter to a reporter in December 1899[150] and to the Red Cross Society in December 1900.[151][152]Reporters treated it as a sensational story and jumped to the conclusion Tesla was hearing signals from Mars.[151] He expanded on the signals he heard in a 9 February 1901 Collier’s Weekly article entitled "Talking With Planets", where he said it had not been immediately apparent to him that he was hearing "intelligently controlled signals" and that the signals could come have from Mars, Venus, or other planets.[152] It has been hypothesized that he may have intercepted Guglielmo Marconi’s European experiments in July 1899—Marconi may have transmitted the letter S (dot/dot/dot) in a naval demonstration, the same three impulses that Tesla hinted at hearing in Colorado[152]—or signals from another experimenter in wireless transmission.[1]”

glupson2,017 posts04-29-2019 9:34pmgeoffkait,

I suggest you read a bit about Tesla’s work, too. If for nothing else, but because Marconi was using a number of his patents for his work. Seventeen, if I remember correctly but I may be way off (many years have passed since I was in early grades of elementary school where I learned it).

>>>>I’ll go with your notion that you may be way off and leave it at that. 
As McMurphy admonished the other inmates in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest when he failed to lift the 300 pound water cooler - at least I tried. My only nit is that if you wish to be a member in good standing in the Isolation Club you should probably take a short course that describes how springs must be selected according to their springs rates and according to the load under which they are put. A very stiff spring would be great for a heavy component but poor for a lighter one, and vice versa. The math is not very difficult. I’d be happy to tutor you.
I know, right? It was the very model of restraint. What is the name of all that’s sacred is going on? Am I a pariah? Did MG rat me out? Is there collusion afoot? I cry foul! 
Uh, oh, I’m getting a bad feeling. Somebody else didn’t think my post was nicely put or summed it up very well. 😛
What are you two knuckleheads going on about, now?

“If I could explain it to the average Joe they wouldn’t have given me the Nobel prize.”

Guglielmo Marconi
The Nobel Prize in Physics 1909

Born: 25 April 1874, Bologna, Italy

Died: 20 July 1937, Rome, Italy

Affiliation at the time of the award: Marconi Wireless Telegraph Co. Ltd., London, United Kingdom

Prize motivation: "in recognition of their contributions to the development of wireless telegraphy."

Prize share: 1/2

Work

In the late 1880s a previously unknown type of radiation was discovered - radio waves. It was found to have the same nature as light, but with a greater wavelength. Various physicists and technicians investigated whether radio waves could be used to transmit signals. In 1895, Guglielmo Marconi used radio waves to transmit signals over a distance of several kilometers. He developed the technology in subsequent years to achieve greater range. The foundation for both wireless telegraphy and radio had been laid.

Jburden, that’s the book my info came from. Eat more fish. 🐟🐠🐡

”He’s just a great writer.” Yeah, it really sunk in, I can tell. 🤗
What’s this, the Frick and Frack Show?
Spoken like a true English major. It’s oft necessary to go into excruciating detail regarding explanation due to the thickness of the membrane surrounding some people’s brain 🧠.
Marconi developed long range wireless communications over the course of many years, building larger and larger towers and more powerful transmit stations until they finally collapsed by their own weight. He had miscalculated that radio transmissions had to be long wave high power. At the time it was not known what an electromagnetic wave even was. No one knew. Marconi did not believe radio waves traveled in straight lines. He thought they followed the curvature of the Earth. As it turned out in the end the waves are very short and require only very low power. By contrast ELF (long wave) communications at wavelength of 75 Hz requires one million watts of transmit power. This is what happens sometimes, when people assume something and take it to the extreme. Sound familiar?
There are a couple of things I can think of right this second that are not amenable to vibration isolation or tuning, not completely. One is the scattered laser light problem. The other is the vibration of the thin wimpy out of round CD whilst spinning, its tendency to wobble and resonate make it exceedingly difficult for the laser to track the nanoscale data, actually impossible.

These are both serious drawbacks to be jumping right into nano technology without knowing about them. Of course, the shame is nobody in the industry in the nearly 40 years has done anything about it. Assuming they even know about the problems, which they probably don’t. I think I can now say without fear of contradiction unless you’ve conquered those two problems you are in Nowheresville.
glupson1,999 posts04-26-2019 8:02pmCan a person teleportation tweak her/himself out of a solitary confinement?

>>>>Jeff Goldblum was successful in transporting the baboon in The Fly from one pod to another so maybe there’s hope for you yet. 

Oops! looks like we’ve been interrupted by a message from our sponsors. 😬

Note to Michael: Everything is debatable and arguable. You just choose to be either unwilling to debate or unable to generate a reasonable counterargument. Repeating,”I’m right and you’re wrong” is not really a very effective method of argument. Have you given any consideration to taking a physics refresher course or two? As I’ve pointed out there is actually a lot of overlap between tweaking and tuning. No reason for the Us and Them mentality. Peace out.

“Because it’s what I choose to believe.” - Dr. Elizabeth Shaw, Prometheus

The Backfire Effect is the phenomenon that occurs when someone’s confronted with contradictory evidence or counter arguments to his preconceived notions of audio, physics, reality, whatever. He digs in even deeper and becomes more convinced his closely held beliefs must be right.
Let’s say you’re right, for the sake of argument. Let’s say electrons vibrate and let’s say they somehow distort the audio signal. But as you say, there’s nothing you can do about it. So, why worry about something you can’t do anything about? Especially in light of the fact there are SO MANY OTHER THINGS you CAN do something about. You might as well wonder why the signal of photons can travel at lightspeed through a solid copper conductor without being distorted by ramming into something more substantial than an electron, you know, like atoms and atomic nuclei. Follow?

At the same time less wire does mean less distortion caused by the directionality being incorrect 50% of the time. That much I will grant you. There are other losses and distortions in wire and cable, too. You know, dielectric material, purity and type of metal, geometry, etc. So, yes, less wire means less noise and distortion.
If an electron vibrates, which it might very well, even as a quantum particle, the total forces (sum of all f=ma) of the vibration of all the electrons in the wire would be very small compared to the sum of forces produced by acoustic waves and structural vibration, transformer vibration, etc. in the room. I.e., mass of an electron is exceedingly small. Thus, the sum of the electron “vibratory” forces is very small. So you can ignore electron vibration, assuming there is any. A similar question is whether or not the audio signal itself is vibrating AND whether it is vulnerable to distortion from local external forces.
Maybe not so obviously, the walls of an ordinary room act like a drum head whilst music is playing. This drum head action is separate issue from standing waves and reflected waves and room echoes. There are some things one can do to alleviate this particular interference to the primary signal from the speakers without going too crazy. Some of these techniques can be used for Windows, too.

Marigo VTS (constrained layer) Large Dots for walls.

Tekna Sonic Dampers (now out of production, unfortunately). The product for taming speaker cabinet vibrations works great for room walls, too.

Crystals (Brilliant Pebbles) are excellent vibration dissipators and can be used on room walls. You can find the maximum areas of flex 💪 on the walls by experimenting.

Golden Sound Acoustic Discs for room corners also work on things like room walls, power cord plugs, electronic chassis, etc.
I’m starting to get a bad feeling again.
They are the egg men. I am the egg man. I am the walrus, Goo goo g’joob.

michaelgreenaudio
915 posts04-26-2019 3:25pm

Hi Glupson

If you read some of Johnathan Skull’s writing (I think it was he) he used cardboard boxes partly filled with newspaper for trapping his corners. Cardboard and newspaper (not so much slick print) can be fun to play with.


>>>>Yeah, I’ve tried those. About 30 years ago if memory serves. Pretty straightforward energy dissipaters. We call those tweaks. They absorb standing waves in room corners, which just goes to show you that even acoustic vibrations should not all be allowed to roam free, if I can be so bold. The room just like the electronics and cabling requires forethought and a plan of attack. You might not have been paying very close attention, I have, to all the developments in room acoustics treatment that have occurred lo, these last 25 years or so. Really quite remarkable. Not saying your stuff isn’t good, too. But I digress. Back to the boxes with magazines, balled up newspaper, you can call them tuning if you want to. Poor man’s Tube Traps, whatever. Of course this wood and paper thing can work against you. Removing all telephone books, in fact all books and magazines and newspapers from the house does wonders for the sound. You can call that tuning, too, if you want.


I kind of doubt too many people these days swallow the old axiom that you have to spend a lot of money to get good sound. Furthermore I don’t consider high end audio to be all about super expensive systems. It really more about attitude and knowledge.

We just saw Michael Fremer’s room with a $100,000 system and 100,000 records jammed in the room with the system. That is the opposite of high end audio in my book. If he doesn’t know better he should. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Give me a break. Your comment that your $14,000 system kills $100,000 systems is pure salesmanship puffery. Obviously, there are a great many rich audiophiles who are all thumbs. I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. 

Knowledge is what’s left after you subtract all the stuff you forgot from school. He not busy being born is busy dying. 

Michael, my offer to send a team of professional deprogrammers still stands. Although you’ve been using mass-on-spring isolation all this time it hasn’t sunk in yet, we’re on the same team. Hel-loo! Michael Green - unintentional isolationist. Geez, you’d think someone told you there was a horse thief in your ancestral tree. Welcome aboard, sailor! Now you need to learn the secret handshake 🤝

Yeah, the hit and miss technique Tuners employ, constantly changing things is OK. but it's kind of the audio equivalent of British sports car enthusiasts, always tinkering. it can be therapeutic i suppose and self fulfilling like a prophecy. But that hit and miss approach only gets you so far,- it can only find local maximums. Finding the real optimum solution by hit and miss approaches is like trying to solve X simultaneous equations in X + n unknowns. the sheer number of variables will kill you every single time.. Guys, doesn't it make more sense to develop a plan for dealing with the vibration problem? A comprehensive plan, a combination if vibration isolation and resonance control. Otherwise, you leave yourself open to attack from many fronts.

I like my cigar too but I take it out sometime. - Groucho Marx

Gee, I almost forgot. The mass-on-spring isolation is more effective for higher frequencies than for very low frequencies, as I got through explaining recently. So, even if springs ring a lot, which they don’t, those higher frequencies wouldn’t make it up through the iso system much at all. A bog standard iso system is at least 99.9% effective for frequencies about 30 Hz. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon 🧠 to see whatever frequencies ringing occurs at will not (rpt not) get through. Not to mention my Phase 2 for the comprehensive plan for dealing with vibration - the use use of effective damping on the top plate, to damp ANY residual vibration from any source. Anyone still not follow raise your hand. 
In fact, steel springs don’t vibrate much st all when compressed any more than a tuning fork vibrates when you grab the prongs with your fingers. If you worried about the springs or anything ringing a little when you strike it with a small hammer just don’t strike it with a hammer while music is playing, you’ll be OK. The real problem arises when you attempt to damp springs. Only damp the top plate or the component. The springs need to be free to move, unrestrained, undamped. Most iso systems have too much damping and or too much friction. Besides, why is Michael suddenly concerned about springs vibrating? I was under the assumption he wanted vibration free to roam wherever their little hearts 💕 wanted to.
Welcome to the isolation club, Michael. I knew we’d get there eventually. 🤗
Apparently all you need to do is knock on Michael’s door and he’ll take you in.
Like Robert at Star Sound Michael Green believes that there is no such thing as isolation. I.e., you cannot prevent vibrations from coming up from the floor and interfering with the electrical signal in electronics. Furthermore, Michael believes that the electrical signal itself is vibrating so why bother trying to prevent external vibration from reaching it. I believe Robert at Star Sound used to say (before he and his trusty sidekick Tom fell off the face of the Earth), “There’s no such thing as absolute isolation.” Which sounds a little like a quote from Alien or Prometheus. I suppose he was trying to say since it can’t be absolute why even try. Or some such nonsense. But I digress.

While it’s actually is true that even the very best isolation techniques do not block 100% of ALL vibrations, even reasonably good isolation techniques are extremely effective in blocking most of them. For a modest iso system with isolation in the vertical direction, the device will be at least 99% effective for frequencies of vibration above 20 Hz. And percentage blocked is 50% at 10 Hz. Follow?

One irony of course is Michael promotes using springs. Apparently he did not get the memo that springs with mass on top is the very definition of an isolation device. But maybe I misunderstood. Maybe he’s placing springs on top of things. 😬
glupson
geoffkait, your last post appears to be worth thinking about. Emphasis on word "appears".

>>>>Emphasis on the word thinking. 😁

michaelgreenaudio
I have done this same testing hundreds of times, maybe thousands, and have never been able to conclude that the audio signal fits outside of the scope of the forces interactions. Everything literally affects everything else. The "audio signal" is tunable.

>>>>Well, I don’t think that’s any news. Not at all. Everybody and his brother knows we can change the sound by using different materials for footers. And by damping, isolating, coupling. But to get the results we’re hoping for we need the RIGHT MATERIALS. Otherwise we’re shooting blanks in the dark. I’ve already given the general roadmap for using cones of different materials, it’s the Hardness that’s the primary variable. I’ve also suggested a comprehensive plan of vibration management that includes competent isolation plus an effective means for evacuating vibration that resides on the TOP PLATE of the isolator.

One thing in your tests that jumps out at me is your test with ebony which is p, as I’ve oft pointed out is highly resonant and actually interferes with the natural resonances of the component. I’ve done the tests, too. Besides ebony is directional, top to bottom and in the azimuthal direction. Ebony generally is useful as a sympathetic resonator ON TOP of components, speakers, Tube Traps, and operate to dissipate UNWANTED VIBRATIONS. When used as footers resonators reflect energy instead of allowing it to escape,

It should also be pointed out that the SHUN MOOK Mpingo discs are much more powerful than stock ebony, being a combo of African rosewood and Gabon ebony, and containing a crystal inside, for increased resonance. AND they’ve been marked for directionality, so there's much less guesswork.  It’s no wonder your results are inconclusive.

Springs, as I’ve oft pointed out, must be matched to the load to get the proper BANG. Again, you apparently don’t get how springs work. Springs are an anti gravity device.

You’ve been doing this testing how long? Thousands of times? It’s not how many.

Yes, glubson, those two statements appear to be contradictory. Emphasis on the word appear. One doesn’t have to look too hard to see a great many contradictions in the whole debate of whether tis better to let vibrations roam free and unfettered or to try to harness and constrain them.

To vibrate or not to vibrate, that is the question: Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous vibration, Or to take arms against a sea of vibrations. And by opposing end them?
Michael, you’ve convinced glubson. That’s gotta count for something. The other fellow doesn’t appear to be quite so convinced. Maybe invite him over to TuneLand and work him over a little bit. See if he’ll come around. 🤕

By the way, the Four Fundamental Interactions support my position, not yours. Hel-loo!

michaelgreenaudio

I see what you are saying about the LPs and CDs and immediately made my own listening judgement call as soon as Michael walked into his listening area. On a professional level it would be a disqualifier for me to take his critiquing of components and music seriously. I would classify Michael’s room more of a music collectors room than a listeners room. That’s not a slam on Michael, just a different part of the hobby than I am a part of. I will make this comment though, If I sat down and listened to both his system and your system (with exception of the body effect) I would bet that I would choose your system over Michael’s.

>>>>Unlike Michael Green I have no such inhibitions about critiquing anyone’s system or ideas, etc., even someone in the industry. It’s nothing personal, though. But on the dodgy subject of having a lot of LPs or CDs in the room I’d like to stress that this issue is much deeper than it might appear. It’s really not really any kind of resonance issue, although there might be sine of that going on, too, what with the CD jewel boxes acting as resonant cavities, but the real reason why I suggest removing all LPs, all CDs, all books, all magazines, and all personal electronic devices from the room has to do with the general problem that all media and connections to global media creates for the listener. It’s a Peter Belt thing. Along the lines of Mind-Matter Interaction, for lack of a better term. It’s the subconscious mind interacting with the local environment. Thus, even if CDs were placed in paper sleeves instead of plastic jewel boxes the problem would remain. This is why I’m positive Michael Fremer does not and can not enjoy the glorious sound he should be enjoying with the $30,000 tonearm and the rest of his system. The superb, exquisitely detailed and dynamic sound is in his room, though. He just can’t hear it properly or completely because if all the interference. His brain 🧠 is like a receiver picking up interference. Can I even say this? Will I be banned? And I apologize if I’m scaring any newbies.



pekri
If I understand this correctly, the "hardware" (Audio Gear) needs to be "connected" to something that will absorb any unwanted resonant frequencies present in the gear? And the "something" that is absorbing the unwanted resonances needs to be isolated from the vibrations in the "world" so there are no unwanted vibrations from the "world" that make their way into the gear?

Do I have that sort of right?

>>>>Yes, and more to the point - all (repeat all) vibrations that affect the audio signal anywhere in the audio system are unwanted. This includes all electronics, internal speaker wiring, power cords and cables. You can think of vibrations like cockroaches. You don’t want any of them. There are no good cockroaches. Don’t coddle cockroaches. Kill them.

1. The very low frequency vibration coming up from the floor, including speaker mechanical feedback and seismic type vibration.
2. The mechanical vibrations produced by acoustic waves in the room when music is playing.
3. Vibrations produced by transformers, capacitors, motors such as turntable motors, CD transport mechanisms.

What are the sources of external vibration? Footfall, wind, Earth crust motion, traffic, subways, trains, ocean waves on the shore, ceiling fans, local construction,

Some unwanted consequences of vibration:

1. CDs fluttering during play and LPs and stylus vibrating excited by external forces.
2. CD laser assembly vibrating due to external forces.
3. Cables power cords and wires vibrating due to external forces.

Thus, a complete vibration management system controls as much as possible the flow of vibration upwards from the floor and downwards fro the component. What is required is a very low natural frequency isolation system with efficient damping for the top plate and a path out of the entire system so that energy is not stored in the system. There are six (count em!) directions of motion that should be isolated but much can be done with a simple and low Fr vertical isolator.

No matter how much you have in the end you could have had even more if you had started out with more.


I like glubson. Glubson is kind of like the TV show, Seinfeld. It’s a show about nothing. He does it so well but it’s such a narrow range. 
That’s interesting, glubson. Do you use two sets of headphones whilst listening to CD and radio?
glubson, do you mean the Pee Wee Herman voices you hear are real? Im impressed!