I am a fan of Chris Sommovigo's Black Cat and Airwave interconnects. I hope he does not mind me quoting him or naming him on this subject, but Chris does not mark directionality of his IC's. I recently wrote him on the subject and he responded that absent shunting off to ground/dialectric designs, the idea of wire directionality is a complete myth. Same with resistors and fuses. My hunch is that 95% of IC "manufacturers", particularly the one man operations of under $500 IC's mark directionality because they think it lends the appearance of technical sophistication and legitimacy. But even among the "big boys", the myth gets thrown around like so much accepted common knowledge. Thoughts? Someone care to educate me on how a simple IC or PC or speaker cable or fuse without a special shunting scheme can possibly have directionality? It was this comment by Stephen Mejias (then of Audioquest and in the context of Herb Reichert's review of the AQ Niagra 1000) that prompts my question;
Thank you for the excellent question. AudioQuest provided an NRG-10 AC cable for the evaluation. Like all AudioQuest cables, our AC cables use solid conductors that are carefully controlled for low-noise directionality. We see this as a benefit for all applications -- one that becomes especially important when discussing our Niagara units. Because our AC cables use conductors that have been properly controlled for low-noise directionality, they complement the Niagara System’s patented Ground-Noise Dissipation Technology. Other AC cables would work, but may or may not allow the Niagara to reach its full potential. If you'd like more information on our use of directionality to minimize the harmful effects of high-frequency noise, please visit http://www.audioquest.com/directionality-its-all-about-noise/ or the Niagara 1000's owner's manual (available on our website).
OMG! This just in! From the Black Cat Cable web site,
"One can hear a slight difference or change in the quality of sound when this reversal is performed, and some people claim that this difference, prima fascie, is sufficient evidence to prove that the speaker cable itself must be more efficient (or somehow otherwise "better") when oriented in one direction vs. the other. Some industry folks have even theorized that the crystals in the metal wire’s lattice are somehow diodic (a diode is like a one-way valve, permitting signal to travel in one direction but not in the other), and the orientation of these crystals within the wire will determine the appropriate "direction" to orient your speaker cable."
>>>>Wow! Talk about misunderstanding the issue. No wonder there’s so much confusion on the subject of wire directionality. That has got to be the most egregious example of a Strawman argument I’ve seen all month. No one ever suggested that wire acts like a diode and permits the signal to travel in one direction but not the other. No way, Jose!
What we ARE saying is that the sound is better in one direction than the other, due to the *unnatural* alignment of the metal crystal structure that distorts the signal in one direction moreso than the other direction. It’s like stroking a porcupine’s back, you’ll be able to stroke the porcupine’s back easier if you stroke it in the direction the quills are pointing. Photons travel more easily and without disruption when they travel along the conductor in the direction of least resistance - resistance caused by deformation of the metal crystals. Measurable difference in resistance. The difference is caused by the crystal structure deformation. One reason amorphous conductors like carbon sound quite good is that they are symmetrical and homogeneous on the atomic level, unlike drawn copper or silver, so there is no issue with crystal structures.
But that is already achieved with the negative wire of the balanced line.
We’re talking about single-ended connections here, @terry9, not balanced lines. As I explained to you, pro-audio systems use balanced lines. We’re talking about single-ended cables here with the shield connected at only one end.
In a SE cable, your notion that the shield should be connected to the amplifier end rather than the source end runs contrary to the design of every cable manufacturer of which I’m aware that uses the extra shield. But of course you may know something that no one else understands.
Your complaint that the common grounding point shouldn’t be the phono cartridge pins is amusing, and no one here has suggested that. Phono cartridge pins are not a "common point." A preamplifier is the typical "common point."
I think that I could have said that more clearly. Instead of "But that is already achieved by the negative wire of the balanced line" perhaps I should have said, "But that is already achieved by the negative wire of the 2 wire / 1 shield line."
Does that make sense to you now?
As to my remark about the pins of a phono cartridge, it was you who brought up the notion of source. If you now wish to recant, that's fine with me.
As for my knowing something that no one else understands, why so aggressive Cleeds? Why not discuss things on their merits?
Geoffkait: Your response on my SACD post ( which I removed) had me laughing to the point tears were running down my face! Your dry humor I find amusing! Anyhow, as far as this post! Walter Wegrzyn cable co! He advertises on this site! Search HDMI cables and he will come up! My point: Walter makes custom cables! His HDMI cable (with is directional ) will blow away a Audioquest diamond! I own both! Directional is because copper can be like fish scales under magnification! Certain flow provides less resistance! Actions speak louder than words! Contact Walter! This guys forgotten more than I'll ever know! I almost exclusively use his cables for my system! My system is just short of 6 figures! Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one! Buy Walters cables ! You might change your directional opinion!
As to my remark about the pins of a phono cartridge, it was you who brought up the notion of source. If you now wish to recant, that’s fine with me
There is nothing for me to recant. What I asked was: " What common point do all components in a system share?" A phono cartridge pin is not a "common point" and I never mentioned phono cartridges.
As for my knowing something that no one else understands, why so aggressive Cleeds? Why not discuss things on their merits?
I’m sorry if you saw my observation as "aggressive." I was simply noting that I’m not aware of any manufacturer of SE cables who suggests that the end with the shield connected should be affixed to anything other than the component closest to the source. By your own admission, you have an unusual system with a battery-operated preamplifier, so I can see why the best solution for you might not be the typical configuration.
pennsy Geoffkait: Your response on my SACD post ( which I removed) had me laughing to the point tears were running down my face! Your dry humor I find amusing! Anyhow, as far as this post! Walter Wegrzyn cable co! He advertises on this site! Search HDMI cables and he will come up! My point: Walter makes custom cables! His HDMI cable (with is directional ) will blow away a Audioquest diamond! I own both! Directional is because copper can be like fish scales under magnification! Certain flow provides less resistance! Actions speak louder than words! Contact Walter! This guys forgotten more than I’ll ever know! I almost exclusively use his cables for my system! My system is just short of 6 figures! Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one! Buy Walters cables ! You might change your directional opinion.
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears you have drunk some bad Kool Aid. Get on board the wire directionality train. All aboard! And stop following the wrong sheep. 🐏 🐏 🐏 🐏
Speaking of cartridges and tonearm wires one wonders if anyone ever tried reversing the tonearm wires to see if there’s a difference in sound. Yes, I realize this would be a royal PITA. Primarily because one might have to try reversing them one at a time. Maybe some tonearm wires come with directional arrows, who knows? That would be nice. Nevertheless, one would imagine low level signal conductors would be rather sensitive to direction.
Geoffkait: You really have to give up the sheep fixation! You use that frequently! Using the site as your improve seems to be your real reason to post! Your advice holds the same legitimacy! Now make sure to report this ! Why! Well from your rhetoric your a high end want to be!
Which way do we go George!!! Let me guess! Would you like fries and a coke with your cheeseburger! Can i super size that! A Career man! I'll send you a tube of preparation H! Rub it on and maybe you'll shrivel up and go away!
I'm new here. I posted my OP with sincere interest. I have been informed the topic has been beaten to death previously. I did NOT intend to fan the flames of past bad blood between longstanding participants. I obviously don't get to play referee or league commissioner. The choice is yours. I am just asking.
Boy that's getting even! Was there smoke coming out your ears when you published that retort! Saturday night live material! Next time try " YOUR MOM WEARS ARMY BOOTS" ! That would be quicker of mind than what your submitting geodouche!
Fsonicsmith: I tried to be nice and ego what's his name had to be a sarcastic ass! i apologize for lowering your post to geoffkaits level! I will stop!
fsonicsmith OP I’m new here. I posted my OP with sincere interest. I have been informed the topic has been beaten to death previously. I did NOT intend to fan the flames of past bad blood between longstanding participants. I obviously don’t get to play referee or league commissioner. The choice is yours. I am just asking.
I’m afraid you’re mistaken. There are no flames of past bad blood between longstanding participants. Yikes! There is no bad blood at all as far as I can tell. There is some forceful debate or discussion sometimes by both sides. And a little humor to ease the tension. 😬 Nothing to be too alarmed about.
Geoff your at it again, not one shred of "Tech Talk" from you, just a lot of cosmic he said she said waffle, this is a "Tech Talk" forum how about presenting some.?
Ok, back to your corners guys... Let's say wire has a direction created from the formation of the wire, and in theory will pass the signal better one direction vs. the other. But wait... music signal is all AC, so whichever way you place the wire it's still going to be incorrect 1/2 the time, and correct the other half. It's kind of like a tug-o-war where each side pulls the center ribbon back and forth 20-20,000 times per second. It's a lot of work, but unless one side is declared the winner, it makes no difference which way you hook up the wire.
Doesn't music signal go from the amp's positive to the negative, then from the negative to the positive? This would be an AC signal. The "load" is just a big loop of long wire (speaker plus cables) and the electromagnetic wave changes direction to make the driver cone vibrate. So this changing of direction is what I mean when I say the cables are in the proper direction only half the time.
Ok, back to your corners guys... Let's say wire has a direction created from the formation of the wire, and in theory will pass the signal better one direction vs. the other. But wait... music signal is all AC, so whichever way you place the wire it's still going to be incorrect 1/2 the time, and correct the other half. It's kind of like a tug-o-war where each side pulls the center ribbon back and forth 20-20,000 times per second. It's a lot of work, but unless one side is declared the winner, it makes no difference which way you hook up the wire.
Bingo-exactly what Chris Sommovigo is saying, I believe.Exactly why even with shield to ground schemes, Chris' take made me re-think the entire concept of directionality. If the fish scale on wire surfaces theory espoused by AQ and others were correct, we are left to pre-suppose that any competent producer of balanced cables checks the grain structure before assembling the connectors. I doubt that very much. I don't doubt that there may be a subtle difference with RCA's when you switch them. Very subtle. Sticking one harmonic dot on the ceiling kind of subtle. It could be due to any number of other things than extruding/grain structure such as dialectric anomalies (inconsistent contact or thickness or properties on a microscopic level), solder joints/connections, or other.
Listen folks, about the only way we are going to clear this up and have a reasonable conversation is to use the report feature found in the lower right hand corner of the offending posts you are seeing here. In this case the offending posts are always coming from the same poster and all of them can be considered trolling. Most of them are also making personal attacks on other members. If we all report him though then there is a possibility that he can be banned; unfortunately rehabilitation seems unlikely.
fsonicsmith OP Someone said, "Ok, back to your corners guys... Let’s say wire has a direction created from the formation of the wire, and in theory will pass the signal better one direction vs. the other. But wait... music signal is all AC, so whichever way you place the wire it’s still going to be incorrect 1/2 the time, and correct the other half. It’s kind of like a tug-o-war where each side pulls the center ribbon back and forth 20-20,000 times per second. It’s a lot of work, but unless one side is declared the winner, it makes no difference which way you hook up the wire."
Bingo-exactly what Chris Sommovigo is saying, I believe.Exactly why even with shield to ground schemes, Chris’ take made me re-think the entire concept of directionality. If the fish scale on wire surfaces theory espoused by AQ and others were correct, we are left to pre-suppose that any competent producer of balanced cables checks the grain structure before assembling the connectors. I doubt that very much. I don’t doubt that there may be a subtle difference with RCA’s when you switch them. Very subtle. Sticking one harmonic dot on the ceiling kind of subtle. It could be due to any number of other things than extruding/grain structure such as dialectric anomalies (inconsistent contact or thickness or properties on a microscopic level), solder joints/connections, or other.
>>>>>>Whether you you believe the audio signal is alternating, or you believe the current is alternating or whether you believe the voltage is alternating, you can disregard the signal or current or voltage that’s traveling in the direction toward the source. The only portion that’s audible is the portion that’s traveling toward the speakers. That’s why you can hear wire directionality in AC circuits just like DC circuits. Which is what HiFi Tuning and I have been saying all along. The so called AC argument is the oldest pseudo skeptic argument against wire directionality but in fact doesn’t really mean anything. It’s a nothing burger! 🍔 Wake up and smell the coffee! Sorry, no Bingo.
By the way, your arguments regarding RCAs and harmonic dots are not persuasive or germane to the discussion. What you doubt is unimportant. No offense to you personally.
Oh atmasphere! Your right ! I am baiting! Why! The site sells six figure electronics! The forum is always a six figure source of advice! My belief! Make the forum a pay to participate genre!! As to costs, well enough to filter out the improve non sense! It's free and firing up Geo does provide me with amusement! If cost something to post, the Facebook audiogon would disappear! And a got a hundred Geo is going to bust my chops on this!
"The only portion that’s audible is the portion that’s traveling toward
the speakers. That’s why you can hear wire directionality in AC circuits
just like DC circuits. Which is what HiFi Tuning and I have been saying
all along.
"
Geoff, I understand what you are saying! The speaker will only play the signal that is traveling towards it, never the signal that is moving away from it. So you can have proper direction of the cables all the time. That was a subtle, but completely understandable answer. Thank you for taking the time to write that.
For something to come back, it has to first, go forward. It's that first, forward moving signal that we hear. Speed is the friend of the audiophile. It's why we want faster amps, faster speakers, etc., because it gets us closer to the actual sound we're trying to reproduce.
The faster the conductor, the better the sound. Sure, it's "only" a matter of a few percentage points between metals but in the end, one is faster. Refining that metal in certain ways makes it better. We can hear it. Why anyone wants to refute that is beyond me.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
