Computer output to DAC, which route?

I, too, have found that the best sounding interface (for me, to my ears, in my system) is a good sound card. I use the ESI Juli@ and J River. What I have also found is that using J River in its native format (44.1/redbook) and upsampling via some good outboard gear (reclocking/upsampling and into dac) sounds much better than upsampling via J River.

Q: Coax or toslink from MOBO?
A: Neither

Why: Using either connection from the motherboard means you are using the integrated audio device. Stay away from that entirely and focus on a separate DAC or audio interface that connects via Firewire/USB/Thunderbolt.

The type of DAC/audio interface you choose depends on your current and potential needs. If you only do playback, a HiFi DAC will do; check AudioAdvisor.com. If you have even a remote possibility for recording anything or transferring vinyl, cassette, etc. to iTunes, focus on a pro-level Audio Interface. My vote is an RME FireFace 800 for those duties. It combines in one unit top-shelf D/A & A/D conversion, great clocking and jitter reduction, pro mic preamps, plenty of versatile connectivity, integrated mixing software, and one of the most stable and solid Windows drivers in its class.

Greetings,

The on board digital outputs on the PC can playback all the sample rates from 16 44.1 to 24 192 except 24 176. Neither WASAPI or ASIO can fix that. The USB capability of USB 2.0 is limited only by the Driver your USB input DAC uses.

The Zodiac series of DACs from Antelope Audio sound fabulous from the Silver on up through the Gold with USB inputs and will play any sample rate from 16 bit 44.1k through 24 bit 192 K.

The Clocking technology in the Zodiac series gives them a very analog sound with out any of the digital nasties that cause many audiophiles to prefer Analog.

The Silver also has a pair of SPDIF coax inputs and a pair of spdif optical inputs. Single Ended and Balanced analog outputs with a analog volume control and a separate headphone volume control.
Of course I am a dealer for the Zodiacs, I sell other brands too but find the Zodiacs to offer the most pleasing sound for the money and they don't need extra devices to convert or enhance the usb output as they developed their own superior USB technology. They even include a very good quality USB cable.

The other part of this equation is the playback software must use WASAPI to play back the native sample rate of the music stored on your PC, I recommend Media Monkey or J River Media Center. They sound slightly differently and which one you prefer will be system dependent.

I build the Music Vault Music Servers and most of my customers prefer Media Monkey but some prefer JRiver, the differences are subtle.

I do encourage you to get a DAC that does support multiple inputs, USB only dacs preclude inputting your CD transport/DVD player etc and these are viable sources that will be improved from the use of a musical DAC like the Zodiacs.

Neal Van Berg
Sound Science
720 308 4000
[email protected]

Gmahler wrote:
"quite hard concepts to swallow"

Well, read this carefully and maybe you will learn something:

http://www.avguide.com/review/peachtree-audio-idac-tas-214?page=1

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Neal - nice Advertisement. Maybe I should do one too. Better yet, I'll just post all of my awards and reviews:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95464#msg960567

http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=860

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?icomp&1301776154&&&/Empirical-Audio-Overdrive-DAC:-King-of-t

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?icomp&1301776154&&&/Empirical-Audio-Overdrive-DAC:-King-of-t

http://www.avguide.com/review/empirical-audio-ramp-3-and-overdrive-usb-dac-tas-200

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=97269.0

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1320430393&openflup&74&4#74

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/USB-SPDIF-converters-0#comment-123548

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=101877.msg1031321#msg1031321

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=89181.msg904966#msg904966

http://www.stereophile.com/content/empirical-audio-ramp-4-usb-format-converter

We dont sell through dealers, so we give you more for your money.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I have a custom desktop PC with a very good motherboard. I've been using the motherboard COAX into a Channel Islands DAC (VDA-2) for some time now. BUT!! Recently I purchased a $20 (yes, a mere $20!!) USB to SPDIF to compare performance. Wow was I surprised. That $20 USB/SPDIF converter blew the doors off the motherboard in terms of overall sound quality. I don't have an explanation. I'm using a TOSLINK with the USB/SPDIF since it does not have a COAX out. Not exactly apples and apples and a bit broad brush but the overall result strongly suggest that most anything beats motherboard audio outputs. And for $20 you can afford this upgrade even if your results are less stellar.
Cheers!
Morten

The explanation is lower jitter. The more you spend on the USB converter, the better the SQ.

Read the reviews.

The jitter of the clock in all digital systems is the most important thing to optimize. Dont scrimp on this because there is nothing downstream that will fix it. Not even reclocking in the DAC.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Tortugaranger: What $20 converter did you get?

Unless your computer is in the same room with your stereo (why??) then avoid using the computer as a source component. Stream the music over your home network instead, so some device that outputs SPDIF to your DAC.

I use the Squeezebox system myself and love it, but if you insist on iTunes, you do have some options. The Apple Airport Express will do exactly this - you can stream your iTunes collection to the AE, and the AE device will output a toslink signal to your DAC. Note that the AE requires a special "mini" toslink connector.

Also, if you insist on using your computer directly as an audio source, do not use the onboard SPDIF output, or even a USB device. Use only a Firewire device!

Firewire supports isochronous data transfers - critical to a clocked data stream like SPDIF. USB does not support this!

Lupin - Async USB works great, and furthermore beats Firewire.

Read this:

....http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105049.msg1159717#msg1159717...........

Firewire is dead!!

Async USB also beats Sonos, Squeezebox Touch, Soolos and other servers. Some servers now allow for async USB converters to be used with them, so this is a good development.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I know that you have the expertise, Steve, but I own both a firewire dac and asynchronous usb dacs. I'm surprised that you are so emphatic in your statement; given your past history (say on the "tubed" dac thread) I would have thought that you would have said that it depends which asynch usb and which firewire are being compared.

Richard - the Firewire that is available is outperformed by the best USB interfaces available. I'm not saying that it is not possible to build a Firewire just as good. It just does not exist.

I base my claim entirely on feedbacks from my customers, just look the post above. This customer was using my older Pace-Car technology USB interface instead of the Firewire input on his Weiss 202. Even Weiss went to a USB interface on their latest DAC.

There is somehow a perception that Firewire is superior and achieves better SQ. Simply not true.

If you have not heard a better USB interface than your Firewire, you have not heard the best USB interfaces.

Have you heard the latest Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5, the Synergistic Research or the Diverter HR?

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

It is difficult to compare USB to Firewire since Firewire is expansion bus while USB is peripheral bus. Firewire speed is guaranted while USB speed is much lower than rated because it runs under protocol. 480Mb/s rated USB 2.0 runs at about half of this speed while Firewire 400 runs at full 400Mb/s (for the reason of guaranteed bandwidth is widely used in broadcasting industry). In addition Firewire does not engage main CPU having own processing unit with DMA ability. For that reason it was removed from Ipod since it posed security risk. Bringing device with Firewire to work might allow to bypass passwords (Direct Memory Access) and plant virus or spyware on the system or to steal company secrets. Big companies would most likely prohibit Ipod as security risk and that would be disaster for Apple. One thing that killed Firewire on (IBM) PC was greed. Apple charged $1 per port for royalties and that's a lot in very competitive business.

I'm not even sure how important speed is since 16/44.1 requires only 1.4Mb/s. Asynchronous operation might be a different story - don't know much about it.

One test for the future will be HDTV. Firewire 3200 could deliver (with 3% overhead) about 3100Mb/s bandwidth - not enough for 1920x1200 at 60Hz. What about Thunderbolt that has about twice the bandwidth of USB 3.0 and is likely to migrate to (IBM) PC ?

I am just starting to look into this. My constraints are a PC running Windows or Linux, listening through old Stax headphones connected to an integrated amp a couple feet away from the computer, and very low budget, say, around $200. By the way, all my PCs (purposely) have FireWire on the motherboard, and I do have an old D/A converter I can use to get started. I would be looking to upgrade as money permits, but this won't be right away. Obviously, I wouldn't be able to afford the best USB interface.

So in this context, what is the best way (in terms of sound quality) to get sound from the computer? Would it be better to get one of those integrated USB/DACs with built-in cable? If so, I'm guessing this would mean money down the drain when it comes time to upgrade.

Also, many mention that using coax or toslink from motherboard is not a good idea, but I don't see a justification for this other than USB is the way to go. Why is it that coax/toslink from the motherboard is inferior? On my computer at work I at least don't get constant ticks and pauses like I do when using the cheap USB->coax adapter I got several years ago.

The "U" in USB stands for Universal. IEEE 1394 (Firewire) is NOT universal. Most motherboards have dropped support for it. And so are most DAC vendors, sadly, have too. Universality often wins out over quality.

Motherboard based Toslink & RCA SPDIF signal paths are cheaply made, and sound that way... to me, at least. Even with the addition of a galvanic isolation transformer. I have listened to a dozen or more of them feeding a WEISS DAC 202, among others. (This was my job for a period of time) Consider that the entire motherboard costs $100, and they have to include a lot of other parts for those 100 dollars.

I'm not sure how to best invest $200. What inputs do you have on your "old D/A converter"? For less than your budget, a USB based M2Tech HiFace2 will get you RCA or BNC SPDIF out with quality clocks and galvanic isolation.

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USB is pretty pathetic. Firewire does blow it away. For $200 - heck - $150 - just get an ESI Juli@ soundcard. it blows away the usb at a much lower cost.

USB sucks - plain and simple. Use it to connect your mouse and printer, not a dac...

I didn't know that about USB
Thanks

Don't believe everything you read. USB is great if you select the RIGHT USB interface. Beats 99% of transports at any price. Just get an Off-Ramp 5 and Dynamo power supply. It blows away everything, including the very best PCI cards and Firewire interfaces.

PCI cards suck, plain and simple. I have had most of them, including the $2K Lynx and RME cards. Most of them have PLLs for the Master Clock allowing them to sync to an external word-clock. Really bad idea. Only a free-running Master Clock oscillator is capable of low jitter. My customers send these PCI cards to me to test with my reclockers because they have such high jitter.

Here are some customer reviews of good USB interfaces:

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/news-and-reviews/off-ramp-converter

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/news-and-reviews/overdrive-dac

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

After selling my Wadia 861 CDP in 2006, I've utilized PC audio since then.

I consider it a canard to make conclusions mainly, or solely on audio output types.

Thus, my experiences suggest that the correlation between output types and sonic results is NOT one that is particularly informative, or useful. Thus, it wouldn't be one that I would recommend using for decision making.

I would suggest that a DAC be chosen based on its sonic capabilities, NOT on the type of its output.

Limiting oneself to a computer based output type is akin to limiting oneself to other audio types -- e.g. tubes vs solid state; box speakers vs horns vs electrostats vs ribbon and planar magnetic vs open baffle speakers; digital vs analogue; etc.... Each of these output types have their pluses and minuses. More importantly, each can be executed well and others, not so much! The same can be said for DAC output types.

If there were one type of any audio output source or method that was better than all of the others, this hobby would be much easier to master and we wouldn't need so many posts in a forum such as this.

"If there were one type of any audio output source or method that was better than all of the others, this hobby would be much easier to master"

If all designers were equally skilled and all systems were up to snuff, the decision making process would much easier and there would not be so much bickering about which source is better. Everyones experience is based upon different designs and different systems. There is literally no way that a typical audiophile can say that one thing is definitively better than another, except in the context of his system.

It's like doctors or lawyers. There a really good ones, but they are the exception, not the norm.

On the other hand, manufacturers, reviewers and modders get to experiment with lots of different speakers, amps and sources, particularly at trade shows. They have much more experience evaluating one component or speaker in many different systems and comparing different components in the same system. At least they have a CHANCE at making a good recommendation that is somewhat system-independent.

Yet another reason why it is risky to purchase something entirely based on an individuals feedback based on performance in his/her system, particularly when you have never heard this persons system yourself. Even risky with reviewers. Know your reviewer. Many of their systems are not great either.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

If all designers were equally skilled and all systems were up to snuff, the decision making process would much easier and there would not be so much bickering about which source is better. Everyones experience is based upon different designs and different systems. There is literally no way that a typical audiophile can say that one thing is definitively better than another, except in the context of his system.

Well said! Better than well said!!!! Should be printed on the masthead of every 'zine (e or otherwise), and scroll across every audio site.

you don't NEED an Offramp if you go USB.

BSME85, the whole point is to get away from the dreaded USB interface as it is soo poor. Even the best implementations are flawed. You can know see that the USB is finally beginning to be phased out.

"you don't NEED an Offramp if you go USB"

True, but the sound quality will be improved a lot if you do, even with a USB DAC. Lots of customers are doing this.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio