My room is completely treated on all surfaces and hidden.
My problem is I get no credit for having an "audiophile room" because it looks completely normal :^).
The answer is yes, you can treat the room without it showing but you must start while the room is under construction or going for complete rebuild on existing space.http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1022712214
The link is to images of my system here at Audiogon. The equipment can be seen and certainly the tall speakers, but other than a couple of small tube traps nothing shows.
start while the room is under construction or going for complete rebuild on existing space.
Mr Porter you room with gear are a dream for most of us. The problem is that most of us don't have the convenience with a new construction project and tearing down where we live to accomplish that dream room. My argument is with the industry not creating a more attractive room treatment. The many on the market and the diy done by most of us make us look like rejects from a funny farm. Padding and foam on walls just make's us look like we all have accuired a form of "OCD" and should be locked away at a Bedlam style asylum. I am hoping that the members on audiogon will take this post a little more serious and relize how important room acoustics and how much better the sound of their stereo's would take on in the right room. I know many have hit this post but I feel more should reply.
There are some "stealth" (relatively invisible) tweaks from Machina Dynamica which I have found excellent, but instead of the rolled eyes of your listening room visitors, you may have to disregard the derision of some naysayers here on Audiogon.
Even though it makes no conventional sense, check out the Brilliant Pebbles for room corners, the Clever Little Clocks for in-home placement (even though neither of mine actually tells the correct time), Tru-Tone duplex covers, and in my experience, the single greatest tweak for the money: Teleportation.
As any potential improvements relate to what you already hear, good and bad, this may require a bit of private email communication to learn how your room compares to those of satisfied users of any room treatments, whether they be conventional, esoteric, or even otherworldly.
I have also been in many conventionally treated listening rooms, and conventional treatments certainly work well, but "attractive" is not usually the best descriptive word for what has been placed in the room to optimize the sound.
The more esoteric room treatments can provide further benefit, even after the conventional, physically obvious, treatments have started to make things better.
The perception of sound is such an individual experience, and rooms so different, only rarely have different Audiogon members ended up owning exactly the same components, or equipment tweaks, let alone implemented the same room treatments.
I suggest the less visible ideas, if you are determined to avoid any disparaging comments from the non-audiophile community. Then you only have to deal with audiophile references to The Emperor's New Clothes. But, your ears will thank you, which is the best outcome.
Some have had success with Acoustic System resonators. I have no personal experience, but you might want to look into it.
Listener, which size of Brilliant Pebbles would you
recommend for a mid-size room. I am concern about 1st reflactions as well. How do I go about that???
I saw a post about a company that makes poster pictures with panels. I think you can choose an image. It was MrStark that posted this link.
I have a installed a huge log fireplace that acts behind the listener as an RPG skyline diffuser and bass trap - is it as good as the real McCoy...probably not but for sure it is better than nothing!
If you are creative you can do a lot.
Where does one find "huge rolls of toilet paper?"
Go to any BIG LOTS Herman.
here is the link to those picture panels
A great but not cheap product. WAF....bulls eye!!!
I ordered two. One with the picture of my daughter and the other is a skyline of my city. Cooool stuff.
It cost premium if you sand your pictures but they have a lots of choices to choose from.
So, how about those pebbles????
i use michael greene floor tunes for the first reflections.
If you enjoy it.Why do ya care what other people think?They are making fun of something they know nothing about.Have them sit down and take a listen.And they should stop ridiculing your hobbie.ENJOY,KP
Dear Listener57, I think you got it mostly right but you might consider some "stealth" wording changes to truly reflect reality and some semblance of respecting the immutable laws of physics:
1) "Even though it makes no conventional sense, check out the Brilliant Pebbles for room corners"
Just change "no conventional sense" to "no sense whatsoever" and you're spot-on. And, just to demonstrate my giving nature, I'm gonna give you a free tweak just for being an Audiogon member. You can easily match the efficacy of the Brilliant Pebbles by simply tying a reef knot in the pull cord of your favorite reading lamp. No kidding, it's true!
2) the Clever Little Clocks for in-home placement (even though neither of mine actually tells the correct time)
I think that's a misspelling, it's actually "Clever Little Crock Pots". Put your ingredients in before you leave for work, let it simmer all day, and you'll have a tasty and nutritious meal when you get home that evening. The fact that a $199 digital crock pot cannot even provide the correct time clearly indicates that it is defective. I'd ask Geoff for a replacement. He's a good guy, he'll gladly replace your defective Crock Pot if you ask him nicely.
The fact that it does nothing to improve the sound of your system is not the issue here. At that price, the least it could do is provide the correct time of day.
3) Tru-Tone duplex covers. The exact same covers can be purchased from Home Depot for about $5 each, no need to spend $30 for these. I suggest you take the $25 you just saved and give it to a worthy charity. Please contact me offlist and I'll provide you with my PayPal account info. I assure you that I'm worthy of your charity!
4)"the single greatest tweak for the money: Teleportation."
While this one is at least "reasonably" priced in comparison to the Brilliant Pebbles, there is no need for you to spend even $60 for Teleportation. Simply send $25 to my PayPal account and I'll call you up, beat on a pie pan with a dinner fork for 30 seconds, and then finish up with a hearty "Thanks a lot and Happy Hanukkah (or Merry Christmas, your choice)!" before I ring off.
This is a *true* value my friend, and the perfect gift for your non-discerning audiophile friends. In the interest of full disclosure, the only teleportation taking place is that of your money being teleported into my PayPal account. But at least I'm giving you a huge discount over the usual MSRP!!
Best Wishes to you and yours in this holiday season!
Thank you for this wonderful response. I believe you have said all that I wanted to say about the use of pebbles as a room tuning devise. But I was afraid that the Audiogon censors would rip me a new you know what.
Yes, as noted above, a room built from the start with built-in treatment can look quite nice. A friend has a Rives-designed room that looks beautiful. Bass traps are built into the corners of the room and are covered in fabric so nothing is visible. A large curved wooden diffusor is at the front of the room, but it looks like an architectural design element, same with the sidewall diffusors. The ceiling diffusors also look good and integrated with the "look" of the room. This, however, was a VERY expensive approach.
I have also seen rooms which were "treated" with minimal structural work that did not look like there was any treatment at all. If you go to the Boulevard Audio website and click on the pictures for a media room in Arlington, Va., you will see this room. The wall is covered with fabric covered panels from Kinetic Noise Control, some panels being diffusors, others designed to absorb mid and high frequencies. Kinetics makes triangular shaped bass traps for the corners that also look like a design element for the room. I have my doubts about such shallow traps being able to do really deep bass trapping, but then again, the room does sound nice.
Even cheaper, I heard a room with only tapestries hanging on the walls that sounded pretty good. It just took some good ears to determine where to place the tapestries and to determine what is just the right amount of treatment.
I know it is dogma around here that room treatment is the foremost consideration in getting good sound. I too think it is important, but, I also think one can get great sound in almost any room with relatively modest acoustical treatment, provided that one has the luxury of locating the listening area and the speakers in optimal locations. Unfortunately, that often means speakers well away from the wall behind the speakers and walls to the side. Also, if one sits in the nearfield, generally within 10'in a typical room, the direct sound from the speaker predominates, and in this manner, reduces the contribution of the room to the sound. Some speakers sound horrible with nearfield listening, some are good, so one must plan speaker selection and room placement together to get good results.
My own room has modest treatment. I have wall-to-wall carpeting, but I have placed an additional "Audiocarpet" (very dense acoustical carpet from Italy) area rug between the speakers and my listening chair. An Audiocarpet diffusor sits near the back wall between the speakers. The front of the speakers are more than 6 ft from the wall behind the speakers. I sit about nine feet away, with the back wall about 5 ft. behind. But, the precise location of speakers and the listening chair was determined by trial and error, and the optimal locations are extremely tightly defined. That is why I say speaker and listener placement is THE MOST important consideration.