Are cables really worth their high price because of their geometry?

@ hiendmmoe - The Geometry of a cable makes a significant difference in cable perofrmance...
e.g....
In-Akustic cables have a simple geometry "conceptually", but building them is where it gets extremely tricky, with lots of custom parts and exceptional wire/insulation quality - and hand built, so their cost is high - But - they are exceptional cables

Cardas - their top of the line speaker cable is extremely complex, the cable is built by machine, but the connectors are installed by hand, so their cost is high. But buyers should be aware that some TOTL Cardas speaker cables can cause issues with SOLID STATE amps because of their very high capacitance that can cause some amps to oscillate and cause internal damage.

Nordost ribbon geometry is a custom built cable, made from extremely high quality wire and insulation, that has taken years of R&D, and hand assembled so their cost is high. BUT - they are one of the few cables to have very low capacitance AND inductance values and they perform exceptionally well

KLE Innovations uses their proprietary formulations that use different conductor gauges and combinations for live and neutral (amongst other things) and are completely hand assembled. Not as expensive as some of the above, but very good performers

Kimber Kable cables is a less complex braided geometry, but much better than a simple lamp cord - the "cable" is built by machine and they are pretty easy to add connectors, so they tend to be more affordable, but they are not as good as the others cables mentioned above.

Some geometries are very basic and rely solely on conductor quality or using solid wire to improve sound quality.

Combining wire quality, insulation quality and an effective geometry will result in a very good cable, but as you said most companies hide behind patents - so how can you tell?

Companies that reveal their geometries are confident that they are pretty hard to replicate, and as such they are not giving away their competitive advantage by revealing how their cables are built - i.e.the geometry - these are the companies I would consider.

So when selecting a cable, do the research into the geometry, conductor metallurgy and insulation. I would not consider a cable that does not show/mention the geometry employed

Unfortunately, the world of cables is very complex and quality comes at a high price.

Best practice - ask questions here or try to get loaners or audition in store - and trust your ears.

My own quest for a quality cable prompted me to take the DIY route, so take a look at my web site - it might have some useful information

http://image99.net/blog/

You’ll also see I’m pretty keen on specific connectors - so it’s not JUST the cables that make a difference

Hope that helps - steve

@thyname - many thanks for your comments. It has been  while since I used Kimber Cables and my comments reflected the TOTL cable I used several years ago

Their Naked series (IC's) are a departure from their long time braiding approach and will definitely provide a significant improvement in sound quality over their more affordable braided cables.

It appears to be very similar in geometry to the DIY cables that VH Audio posts on their web site. So if you are adventurous and can solder, you could try that geometry before splashing out $$$ for the real thing. 

Regards - Steve

Being a thread about "cable geometry" and since I believe cable design is far more complicated than many believe, I thought I would pass on my own experiences, i.e. for those of you that might be interested...

I have been researching cables for about the last 15 years (on and off) and within the last 6 years I have pursued cable geometry with much more focus and have found good cable design is very complex and dependent on many factors - not just resistance

My first deviation from the standard ’twisted pair" (with & without shielding) was Stager Silver Solids - solid silver wire with a tightly twisted geometry. These provided much more detail and openess than the more conventional cables I had used to date.

Then I took a leaf out of Kimber’s geometry book and tried braiding cables - braiding surpassed the everything to date and I was able to extend that geometry to Power cables, which again proved t be very beneficial.

It was at this point I got to know a person with over 30 years in the cable and connector business. He made me aware of how using different sized wires and different numbers of strands of solid wire per conductor could improve things even more.

Unfortunately using different sized conductors and different number of conductors did not work too well with the braided design.

SO I then decided to look at the possibility of eliminating crosstalk (if there was any) between the conductors in a cable.

Audiophiles often position the various cables in their systems such that if two cables have to cross, they do so at 90 degrees to minimize crosstalk.

So I looked again at the Stager Silver Solids geometry and asked myself, what if one of those conductors were to run straight through the center of the tightly twisted conductor. Would this provide enough of angle.

My first prototypes were made from CAT5 wire and consisted of a straight positive lead with a coiled neutral wire.

Why not the other way around? - mainly because the neutral might just be able to provide some sort of "screening" to the signal lead

This approach proved to be extremely beneficial compared to the braided approach in terms of clarity, imaging and bass performance and detail.

So then I decided to turn my attention to the metallurgy used in the wires for my interconnects. For me, Silver became the obvious choice for the signal wire because of it’s superior conductivity. But since the coil of the neutral was 3 times the length, it made it a little expensive so I selected a silver plated copper wire.

Thinking back to my experience with different numbers of conductors and different wire gauges I experimented a little with the size and number of conductors used for the neutral.

Since the early designs there have been many many permutations of wire types and gauges, and most combinations have proven to be advantageous. Several people that have adopted this geometry approach have also assisted with testing wire types and provided valuable feedback of their observations.

The last area I have been recently testing is the type of insulation on the wires. One contact in Austria made me aware of the Dielectric Constant of insulation. I have found that using wires with the lowest possible level of Dielectric constant provides the very best sound.
e.g.
- Air is around 1.1
- Cotton is around 3.0
- AirLok insulation (see VH Audio) is around 1.45
- Teflon is around 2.2
- foamed insulation vary between 1.6-2.0

As I said, this journey has taken many years and in that time I have been fortunate in that many others that have adopted what I refer to as the "Helix Geometry" have provided some excellent feedback on wire types and insulation.

Each cable variant takes some 300+ hours of burn-in and subsequent auditions. so the process has not been quick.

My system is modest compared to some of those now using the Helix Cables, and based on their observations they appear to work extremely well on a variety of systems, both tube and solid state.

SO - If you believe Cables make a difference, then you might like to see the latest variant of cables I have made on this site.
http://image99.net/blog/

ALTERNATIVELY: For those of you that believe all that matter is resistance and would like to point out my approach and geometry is flawed
- I will point out that I will not respond to your comments, simply because I have heard ALL the arguments as to why they will not work before.

But everyone is entitled to an opinion - so post away - like minded individuals will appreciate it greatly

For those sitting on the fence - trust your ears - they are the best "tool" a person has - and try some of the more unorthodox geometries from companies like In-Akustik, Nordost, KLE Innovations and Kimber.

Regards - Steve

@justmetoo - Thanks for that info - I've not heard of that cable, but from your description it sounds very similar in some respects to my Helix Cables.

Another very similar cable I am aware of is the Interconnect from Anti-Cable
http://anticables.com/interconnects/analog-rca-interconnects

But I have no experience with what they sound like. Reports on this forum seem to be very favorable though.

The problem with cables like these is the time to fabricate them and they become difficult to make when you get up to 2-3 meters long, making them more expensive to the customer

Regards - Steve

@b4icu - I think I will just say that w.r.t. cables - we will have to agree to disagree.

I have received observations from dozens of people that have implemented the DIY cables i promote, in a variety of systems both tube and solid state and of varying levels of "quality" (including McIntosh) and I am yet to hear that they made little or no difference - most are ecstatic with the levels of improvement they observed.

As for your statements..

What exactly justify a cable’s price of US $1,800?

The answer is simple - improvement in sound quality.

Maybe YOU are not willing to pay that much, but many people will

What makes it a high end cable?

One that provides a significant improvement in sound quality - but it does not necessarily have to be "high priced" - however in audio circles, the two does seem to go hand in hand.

Would such a cable (as called high end or high cost) would fit all systems ?

Quality cables will achieve improvement in most systems - but there are caveats e.g. some TOTL speaker cables that have a very high level of capacitance can cause some solid state amps to oscillate and cause internal damage
- so NO - not ALL cables will be compliant with all systems

Regards

If you only have a low end system, then Belden cables or even some zip cords should be OK.

I have found that using quality cables on a system of any price will enhance the performance of that system - dramatically,
- Provided you choose the cables wisely..

My $350 mini system has rudimentary speaker and power cables made up from left over pieces of wire I had lying around and it sounds so much better, even when played very loud, which was something that I could NOT do before upgrading the cables

I once took one of my power cables to a store to audition a Bluesound Mini Pulse speaker - the guy at the store could not believe the improvements he heard, when I changed to my power cable
- his jaw dropped.

On another occasion, I was fortunate enough to be able to audition (free) a pair of IC’s (MSRP $1800) on my Bluesound Node 2 (MSRP $600) and it performed way above it’s price point
- but some might consider it is ridiculous to have cables of that price on such a component.
- they would probably feel more comfortable spending $1800 upgrading the component resulting in less of an  improvement because their cables are "restricting" the signal

I have repeatedly demonstrated the improvements cables make to friends and family, most of whom are not really into music that much - but they heard the improvements cables make

The point I am trying to make is - even low end components today perform way above their price point when good cables are installed. So opting for cables that will simply "make do" may not be the best way to proceed - especially for "audiophiles"

People often spend hundreds (or even thousands) on upgrading components, when they could have spent less on some decent cables and would have achieved better results.

The "problem" with cable selection...
- you can replace an interconnect, but if the power cable on the attached component(s) is the problem, the new IC will not demonstrate its true abilities
- and the converse is is also true.

As a general "approach" I advise people to start with upgrading their speaker cables
- audition ask questions on this forum for the best performing speaker cables you can afford
- then focus on power cables for source components - they benefit greatly with better power cables
- finally, upgrade your IC's - at this point you should be able to hear significant improvements in sound quality, but it is not all due to the interconnects - the other cables play a huge role in overall system performance
- then, and only then - upgrade the power cable to the amplifier

But a hit and miss approach to cable selection will not do any justice to the components you own.

I consider my cables more important than my components, after all they are the "conduit" for the signals that the components process - so they should be top notch as well

Regards - Steve

@russbutton - yes your buddy’s little "trick" only proved a well known fact...
- i.e. some people that sell audio components have poor hearing - really !

I have come across sales people that have connected speakers out of phase and were unable to detect the problem. So they have no hope at all at telling which cable performs best based on their "listening abilities".

Lets face it - most audio stores are in it to make money and cables are a hot item once a component or system is sold. But they have to sell "established" brands.

This is why so many of the smaller cable companies sell direct and hope word of mouth gets them the sales they are after

I’ve tried many times to promote a lesser know brand of cable that performs extremely well - to my local stores.

But Stores are driven by their customers, who want established brands because of their resale value. So quality cables from a lessor known brand never get a fair shake.

Basically - it is up to the customer - trust your ears

If you cannot tell the difference between two cables, not a problem - stick with the cables you have.- you’ve just saved a ton of money.

But some of us ARE ABLE to notice the difference between cables - trust me :-)

Regards - Steve

@russbutton - you are obviously very happy with your system and cables

So - just enjoy the music :-)

Regards - steve

@thyname - I’m retired, so I have some time.:-)

I don’t normally participate this enthusiastically - I generally just post my observations and leave it for others to read/decide

But geometry, metallurgy and insulation is sort of "my thing"

I and many others, from Austria, Bulgaria, Australia, Canada, USA, New Zealand, Hong Kong, have looked at these three things closely and we consider our OBSERVATIONS, yes - hundreds of hours (and that’s just ME) of actual listening time, is a pretty darn good indication that selecting the right geometry with the right wire & insulation DOES provide the very best in sound quality.

So when people on this forum extol the virtues of "ZIP CORD" - I figure the rest of the world deserves to hear a little from "the other camp" just to balance things out - to allow them to make an "informed decision"

Don’t get me wrong - Zip cord does "the job"
- but it is a far cry from "the very best job"

Regards - Steve

@b4icu - ALL cables have a "geometry" - it refers the manner in which the wires in a cable are situated with respect to each other inside the cable sleeve (if it has one). Some examples of geometry are...
- parallel - such as Van den Hul speaker cables.
- twisted pairs - some are tightly twisted (and often referred to as Helix) and some have a "longer" twist like some Beldon cables
- ribbon - such as TOTL Nordost speaker cables
- braided - such as the lower end Kimber Kable cables
- Helix - this term has been used by many different brands and may actually refer to some very different geometries, so as a "term" you should not think they are all the same.

Geometry, as a "term", has been around for many years e.g. Kimber has always promoted their braided geometry. But referring to "geometry" by sales people may be something new.

Good Brands mostly reveal the geometry of their cables, often because they are difficult to replicate. If a brand does not reveal it’s geometry, I tend to shy away from them.

From all of the auditioning of cables and connectors I have performed over the past few years (literally hundreds of hours), I have found that the ear is amazingly good at detecting extremely fine details, i.e. once the observer knows what to listen for. I have also found that to hear the differences requires time to allow the cables/connectors to settle/burn-in.

Unfortunately for the consumer, my approach may not be a viable option. But the one thing I tell people is - when auditioning anything - take along your favorite LIVE RECORDING and listen for venue acoustics, those little echoes and reverberations present in the background, because these are the sounds that high resolving gear/cables will really bring out

When it comes to cable selection, the terms used in the advertising literature are sometimes "misrepresented", so how does a consumer proceed?
- with the internet it is quite easy to lookup information pertaining to the brands being considered - look for diagrams or explanation on how the cable is constructed
- ask people on this forum for their opinions on a cable’s performance
- self education on the various hyperbole being used by sales people to gain an understanding.

But the only real acid "test" is to try different cables - preferably in your own system...
- maybe a store will have loaners

OR - ask a store to audition a couple of different brands, but in the best system they have.

I once asked to audition a $600 streamer in a $60,000 system - the sales person obliged and got the sale - all for a 5 minute demo. It demonstrated just how good that streamer could perform - good cables will respond accordingly.

Hope that helps Steve