Ah,well. I'll let someone with more knowledge and a stronger desire to know than I figure out why our results may differ so much. Even though we are using the same arm, similar cartridges and even more similar tables, there are other variables present that may be influencing our results. Of course in my case it could well be that my ears are up me own arse, but I have full confidence in what Paul and Doug hear because I've listened with them several times and have a good idea of what they mean when they describe something to me. Not saying anyone is right or wrong here, just that I have a good reference for communicating with them.
It seems to me that the more we discuss this issue, the less we come to any consensus other than the usual "listen for yourself" and "trust your own ears."
Wow, Mike! No humidity, that's quite an A/C unit you have there! Just kidding, I know what you mean. We keep our house between 65-70 all year round as well. The relative humidity in my room is generally around 50% in the warmer months even with the A/C going. Yes, I'm part of the small population of New Englanders who has central air and uses it. I lived in the south all of my life except the last 12 years so I'm familiar with the humidity levels down there. Humid, to me, means greater than about 65%. That's when I begin to get uncomfortable. Nsgarch's situation is probably different. Does it get humid in Tucson during the monsoon season?
Yes, those turkey frying movies are very impressive but they really do exaggerate the dangers. I especially liek that new cell phone commercial where the guy blows a hole in his driveway. Very funny! Other than using some common sense the only rules I know of are make sure the bird is completely thawed and don't use a bird that has been injected. I've always felt the worse part was dealing with the 5 gallons or so of cooking oil. I suppose a recycler may take it, but you still have to handle it. I won't ever do it, but I must say that when I've had fried turkey at my parents it is without a doubt the moistest bird I've ever eaten. If I was down your way I'd use that cooker for boiling bugs. Much easier and more to my tastes than fowl. |
Dan my family is set on my smoked turkeys a few time a year. I have a fryer/sea food boiling setup but have not given frying turkeys a try as of yet. I saw to many bad pictures of what can go wrong when water and hot oil mix. Yes there was supposed to be a decimal point before my numbers above, over driving my head lights again im afraid.
Guys it is not as cold here thats a given but when its hotter than a frying egg we run the A/C. The temperature in my home as in yours stays within 68 to 75. And theres no humidity along with that.
The bottom line is enjoy the music first. In the mean time when you can as im sure most of you have already done make those very small movements and listen a while before making another move. Its quite an enlightening experience for me. I most certainly was making to large of a move on most adjustments. Like i said the graph opened my ears to what small moves are and how easy you could miss the best setting available. |
Dougdeacon,
I made a mistake in my last question. It is the right side the make noise first and no matter where I put the wieght it does not stop happening first. |
Yes, I do live in AZ (Tucson) however the temp/humidity may or may not affect the suspension material depending on what it is (hopefully the cartridge designer/maker chose a modern polymer) but temperature will definitely affect the magnitude of the skating force because it's a factor in the coefficient of friction (between the stylus and the vinyl.) I question though how much a summer/winter temperature difference would make because it would have to represent a small percentage of the heat generated at the contact point itself. The only place for the heat to go is into the vinyl itself and I have no idea how ambient temperature affects vinyl as a thermal conductor. However, I guess as long as it's cool enough to maintain its shape and not warp, it could absorb friction heat.
There are some vinyl connoisseurs who recommend an interval of "rest" for the vinyl before repeat plays. Personally, I never found myself wondering how long it might take for my grooves to 'cool down' (as I proceed to play the same track over and over again ;-) |
We're on the same track as you Dan, I've removed the entire AS mechanism from the arm, back to the bearing frame, and noted a small improvement.
Also agree with your observations about the weather and its effects. VTF requirements correlate with changes in temperature and humidity. So do AS requirements.
This is predictable from the natural behavior of elastomeric polymers (and thanks to Paul, who did predict it) and was the reason I began experimenting with extremely low AS in the first place. Our results might resemble Stltrain's if we lolled about in warmer climes like his!
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Hi Mike,
I haven't smoked a turkey myself in about 25 years. Enjoy! What I'd really enjoy is a properly fried turkey, but that is way too much hassle.
I hope you left out a decimal point. ;-) My stock Triplnar AS weight only weighs 3.9 grams. When I used my little plug of hardwood and 3 o-rings the combined weight was still just less than a gram.
My reference to the local weather was meant as a possible explanation as to why you and I would find such a difference in AS 'cus I don't doubt that you know what you are hearing. I have no idea what Doug has settled on, but if he, Paul and I are still on a like track the difference in weather between New England and New Orleans may help explain things. Also for Nsgarch as I seem to remember he lives in Arizona (?), but he also uses a different arm as well as a different cartridge.
Happy New Year to you as well! |
Dan so sorry to hear about the cold in your part of the woods. Smoking our New Years turkey today the temp was mid 40s early but made it up to the mid 60s by noon.
On the subject of AS as i have stated above going slow and moving small there is a difference and its quite audible. The brass washer i was using weighs in at 37 grams. I took that off and had just the lever only on TP. Then i went to rubber rings three of them at this point for a grand total of 25 grams. Listening to a very dynamic LP last night Captain Beyonds first the size of my stage has increased along with much better balance and depth. My wife calls it surround sound and if you did not know better you would think i had 5.1 playing. Ive been having a lot of fun making these adjustments and so far its paying off very well for better sound in my system.
Happy New Year to all of you analog lovers.
Mike |
Nope, no AS and no AS mechanism still works best for me. Chimes, bells, woodblocks, cymbals, etc. sound clear and even have better timbre. However, as I was clearing the driveway today it suddenly occurred to me that it is well below freezing and the relative humidity is very low. I see about 20%. Indoors. I think I'll be revisiting this in the spring. ;-) |
Bob, I know it can be hard to use the visual method with low compliance cartridges. The Dynavector 20X-H (like most MC cartridges) has a dynamic compliance of: 12 x 10-6cm/Dyne. Anything below 15x more or less, is considered low compliance (meaning stiff suspension) and so it's going to be hard to see the cantilever deflect. Strong light and practice can help, as can a cartridge with a body that makes it easy to see and reference the cantilever's position. What's even more exasperating with low compliance cartridges, is trying to tell when the cantilever doesn't move! Most (I'd guess as high as 90%!) of MC cartridges (both high and low output) have the following three specifications in common: VTF = 2.0 gms +/- 10%
Dynamic compliance 15 (+/-) X 10 (to the minus 6) cm/dyne
Micro-ridge or line-contact stylus This means that their AS settings will all fall into a rather narrow range -- which I've found to be around 0.8 gm to 1.2 gm. When you think about those (small) numbers, it's not hard to understand why many folks hear no difference with/without AS! I have to admit, I don't, at least not MOST of the time! But once in awhile, I'll hear fuzziness in a not-necessarily-loud passage (remember, actual track-skipping is not an antiskating problem ;-) When this fuzziness occurs, I'm always curious whether it means I need more VTF?, more AS?, more of both?, or possibly "Sit down you fool, someone overdrove the cutting head!";-) The last option is usually the case; and it happens, I've found, on a rather high percentage of Direct to Disc recordings! For what it's worth, I follow these two rules (and I've never been disappointed): First, I always run micro-ridge-stylus-equipped cartidges at their maximum recommended VTF. This will not hurt either the cartridge or the record. And it will NOT (interestingly) increase the necessary AS force because it won't increase groove friction appreciably! Second, I set the AS at 1gm. That might be 0.05 gm too high or too low, but so what!? As many have already said here, it's close to impossible to hear any difference between AS = 1 gm and AS = 0 gm either! So I set it and forget about it! My rationale for using a LITTLE BIT of AS rather than none at all, is simply that (as someone already pointed out) the laws of Physics demand it! . |
It has been my experience that torture test records are usually damaged and worthless |
I checked my antiskate over the weekend by eye. Set it to zero and didn't notice any sideways movement of the stylus as it dropped into the groove. Set it high and also didn't notice any changes. I have a Dynavector 20X-H on a Moerch DP6 tracking at 2.05 grams.
Also didn't notice any difference in sound or tracking ability. So I set it fairly low and kept enjoying the music.
Bob |
I set antiskating by ear, using a Shure test record (i.e., a torture test with increasing modulation levels). Setting antiskating this way always improves the ability to track test records. Frankly, I have so few regular records that my cartridge cannot track cleanly, it is hard to set antiskating this way with anything but a torture test record.
With all of the arms I've set this way, the result is FAR less antiskating compensation than what the manufacturer of the arm recommended. My guess is that most people end up dialing in too much compensation. |
Good thread, all. Good thread. |
Going as far to tie up my AS lever on my Triplaner to find the limit in one direction was a test of sound in that position. In my case that magical holographic sound was not completely closed from the right side but reduced. For my ears AS is dictectly the reason for the magic sound vinyl playback can deliver. Slight reverse movements of AS from none to where i am now has opened up the magic. Another jingle "Patience is a vertue" applies to TT setup.
Its hard for me to believe after my return to Vinyl 5 years ago that i did not know all that i thought i did about setup. My years of vinyl playback before CD also counts but at that time knowledge of adjustments was not as easily available, more of a trial and error time. It seems to me like i said above AS is the magic, VTA VTF is the timber of the musical sounds. My making of slight moves with height and weight i am hearing better sounds of voice and instruments.
My choice of music is classic rock which is electronicly produced with ampfacation. I am lucky in this choice because all audio gear is electronic. We dont know the sound with out amplification like classical and chamber music which uses the room or hall for increased volume. I do know how rock sounds at a concert from the many i have attended. The dynamics of a rock concert are impossible in the home though i can and do reach the 100+DB level at times. Reproducing the timber of a rock band is the trick for me. The bass drum guitar, lead guitars, and all else involved including full blown orchestras. These sounds are a personal choice in our adjustments. Because i discovered these adjustments are a tone control also.
We are use to the fast paced world of today along with that competitive life we live. Vinyl playback came from a time of a slower world. If you can try to make these small adjustments and listen for a while you will be reworded with better sound.
Well off to see the Saints finally and then back to my passion for better sound. |
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Good one Thomas.
I think this thread will be an important one for those that have the interest and especially "patience" to do any follow ups themselves on this subject.
For year's I have always set and kept near minimum setting for anti-skate and never gave much thought to it.
If my tonearm acted up or jumped across a particular Lp, I'd simply tape a quarter to the head shell and re-play it....just kidding
Raul covered a few cause and effect's of this constantly changing skating energy and there is no set methods including any real rule of thumb to follow unless we all had the exact same gear and Lps.
Anyway, I'm with you Stltrains.
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Upon further review "Slow is better", "A little bit goes a long way". These jingles have to be inserted into your arm cartridge adjustment log.
I have also returned to slight AS making the smallest moves possible. Also slight moves to VTF and VTA. The graph in the Vacuum State cartridge setup paper opened my eyes up to the possibility of missing the sweet spot of adjustment by making to large of a move. I'm using one no.8 brass washer as the weight for AS for now and its all the way back on the lever.
No doubt that it could be very easy to miss better sound by making to large of a move. This is a tedious time consuming task but will pay huge musical enjoyment. After 5 hrs of tuning last night i most certainly brought better focus, micro detail, to my rig.
This is just the beginning as i am on the hunt and will get my arm cartridge to the best position for superior sound. This is going to be my New Years resolution. |
Dear Thomasheisig: +++++ " What do you think? " +++++
that's what you asked on the subject. Well I already posted my experiences about along that in theory we need AS.
The AS subject is so complex that almost any " think " is valid.
There are to many parameters involve on the AS subject that makes so complicated to have the right scientific answer.
In our ( my self ) today tonearm design we are trying about and we don't have the right answer yet and maybe we can't have it.
From my point of view the AS subject is a whole/big complicated project ( a scietific one ) by itself and I'm not sure if it is worth to go seriously in deep about even that I'm a " perfectionist " on the sound reproduction targets.
I don't want to go inside of the different " roads " ( posted here ) to set-up the AS because IMHO no one is perfect and no one is even near the " target ", almost all are to " simple " for say the least.
In the AS subject we have to take in count between other parameters/things that affects it: eccentricity of the LP that it is different on each LP, deformation/waves on the LP that is/are different on each LP, the recording velocity on each track and the different " velocities " on each track!!!!!!, the differences on 33rpm, 45rpm and 78rpm that affects in different way to the AS subject, each cartridge suspension/compliance/stylus design, each tonearm whole design, VTA/SRA, VTF level, Azymuth, temperature that affects the cartridge compliance suspension, AS tonearm method, etc, etc.
Due to that complexity and over the time I go from full AS to 50%, to 30% to 20% to none.
Am I satisfied?, certainly not, so what to do?.
I make/take a " reference "/status: to set-up/mantain with almost CERO tolerance all cartridge/tonearm/TT set-up standards ( VTA/SRA/VTF (near the high limit )/overhang/etc, etc ) and try 50-30-20-none AS values trying to hear degradations or improvements on the quality performance and after many testings TODAY I choose not to worry ( in my system )
on AS or maybe 20% to stay on " mind-calm ".
Now, there are two important things on the whole AS subject: the cartridge quality control and the tonearm quality control on each cartridge/tonearm out there, IMHO the necessity of more/less AS ( other that the whole set-up ) depends on that high/low cartridge/tonearm build quality control.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I agree with Doug. I tried nearly every setting from AS to no AS. Yes, no AS is definitely different, but in my opinion only "better in the first minute". I am back with AS, but as little as possible in combination with looking what movement the needle is going to do.
To the bearing:
Yes, of course this can happen, when the bearing is too stiff, but this is rare. Another idea is, that the manufacturer delivered a cartridge which was not aligned properly (that is not common, but possible), but in general - and this is the reason why I started this thread - is to realize or to start a discussion about Antiskating. It can be a serious factor in the personal set up |
Dazz, if this thread has any point to make at all, it's that there ARE parameters for setting AS -- no the sky is NOT the limit (in either direction;-)
In the case of your SPU-85, an elliptical stylus + high VTF (3.5 g) = lots of friction! The compliance of the suspension is 8x (medium) so I'd be inclined to say that you could BEGIN (in this rare instance) by using the old "AS = VTF" standard. And then slowly reduce the AS until you begin to get some high frequency fuzz as Doug just described. Where you wind up will have to be your decision, of course. Patience is mandatory (patience, and a little self-confidence ;-) |
So, the final conclusion is: set the AS as low as possible? Could you give an example? I have the SPU 85 Anniversary at 3.7 gr tracking force in a Fidelity Research FR-66S, the AS should be half of that or less?
Chris |
Belated Merry Holidays to all. Just catching up on this fun and fascinating thread.
***
Hevac and Dgad both suggested - correctly - that the damage to Thomasheisig's cartridge could have resulted from sticky tonearm bearings. Most of the discussion is taking place amongst those with tonearms having very high quality bearings (JMW, Phantom, TriPlanar, Vector, etc.), but the danger of poor, dirty or poorly adjusted arm bearings should not be overlooked. That was a good alternative explanation.
Bearing drag on my OL Silver was notably higher than on my TriPlanar. The difference was easy to feel and the Silver, while a great performer at its price point, did not track or play nearly as well.
So we've developed another reason NOT to put very costly cartridges on lesser tonearms: besides not hearing all the cartridge is capable of, an inadequate arm may actually shorten the cartridge's lifespan. More support for Linn's original upgrade hierarchy: table, tonearm, cartridge.
***
Bearing drag and arm effective mass always provide some resistance to inward movement, so even arms lacking *any* AS device still apply "some" AS force. We can never actually get to zero AS.
This is true even of linear trackers, whose lateral effective mass resists the slow, inward spiralling of the groove. Those Mapleknoll/Walker/Rockport/Air Tangent guys need to add a PRO-skating device! Hah!
***
Based on suggestions above I took the next obvious step, which Dan apparently also just did: I removed the TriPlanar's AS mechanism altogether.
It isn't difficult and it's reversible. Just be careful when removing the little C-clip that it doesn't fly off somewhere. Once you slide the dogleg off, the post it rides on unthreads pretty easily.
The sonic improvements from removing the AS mechanism were about what we'd all predict: an increase in very low level information, soundstage deeper and improved in the back corners, etc. Not huge or even major, but audible.
As for tracking, most LP's played perfectly. On one stereo LP with powerful operatic vocals I got a tiny amount of L channel mistracking at one tough spot, then an equally tiny amount of R channel mistracking at another. ("Tiny" means a trace of HF fuzziness, not static-like bursts.)
Conclusion: my average AS setting (now as close to zero as possible) is okay but a trace more VTF was needed for those two passages on that LP, given that day's weather, etc. We need remote-controlled, adjustable, VTF-on-the-fly! ;-)
***
Yikes! No fluid damping trough. No AS mechanism. No arm rest/lock (in some cases). Our tonearms are disappearing!
I also considered removing the entire cueing mechanism. It's probably a significant resonator with all those fiddly bits and it looks like just two screws. This would be viable if you're comfortable cueing every LP by hand, which Paul isn't, so I didn't do it. Thom likes hand cueing so maybe he'll try. :-)
***
Playing just above minimal VTF and setting VTA/SRA for each record demonstrates the truth behind those notional charts in the white paper: that the sweet spot for these parameters is extremely tiny and the curve surrounding them can be very steep. I thought the paper and its charts offered a perspective that could be helpful/useful.
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Could you send a picture of the cartridge (with the "off axis" cantilever) Renaat?
Chris |
I had two ZYX cartridges (Fuji and Airy 3) that had the same 'needle out off axis' problem (see pictures above). Now I understand the AS was too high (2.0 on my SME4 corresponding to the requested VTF). Just installed my nex ZYX Atmos/D4 with zero AS, I hope this will avoid the 'out off axis syndrom'.
Renaat |
Thanks for setting me straight on the vector analysis, Jonathan. So we do always have a skating force magnitude with angled tonearms. But that magnitude can vary with the magnitude of the force of the drag on the stylus and thus the needed AS compensation can vary. Perhaps I should take stltrain's stance and question my results further. But it is interesting that several of us have recently found less need for AS since improving on our cartridge alignment. Coincidence? |
Guys, the reason why skating forces are generated is that with an offset angle tonearm, there are two vectors involved. One is the drag of the LP groove pulling the cartridge stylus forward, and extends from the tonearm pivot through the cartridge stylus. The second vector is caused by the drag of the LP groove pulling the stylus forward but this time at the offset angle. When you sum these two vectors together (think back to high-school math), you generate a third vector which pulls the cartridge inwards, and it is this third vector that we refer to as the "skating force". The strength of this vector will depend directly on the drag from the LP groove and the angle of the offset.
So as long as you have a tonearm with an offset angle, skating forces will be generated. In other words, if you want to eliminate the skating forces (and the need to apply anti-skating, you have to get rid of the offset angle. Even if the stylus is aligned as well as possible within the geometry of the tonearm, skating forces will still be generated. No exceptions.
How the anti-skating compensation is accomplished obviously depends on the individual tonearm designer, and how well he understands his stuff. Depending on how competently their anti-skating mechanism works (or how well they can get it adjusted), some listeners may therefore prefer to avoid anti-skating. But please don't subsequently jump to the conclusion that a preference for no anti-skating with a particular tonearm means that it doesn't generate skating forces, or have a need to cancel such via an anti-skating mechanism. Because if the tonearm has an offset angle, skating forces will be generated. Again, no exceptions.
regards and hth, jonathan carr |
I'm not trying to talk you out of investigating, tweaking, experimenting. Our respective cartridges are different in several ways. I believe you have a great plan going forward. And I neglected to thank you for sharing what you have found regarding AS since using that better protractor.
The concept put forward in the white paper is that all of the adjustment parameters are inter-related. (Those aren't graphs of any data. They are just illustrations to help make this point.) This is something all of us who do their own setups and tweaking have experienced. This is because of the need to compensate for various forces in different planes acting on the cartridge. If one of these forces is removed due to better alignment, then why insist on applying the compensation needed when that force is present? The other parameters are still dependent on each other, but we have removed the need for one. As Nsgarch and I have suggested, (and he did a much better job in his post of 12/22), the better the stylus alignment the less friction there is and the less these side forces are. If they are still there at all. I believe that with the vastly improved alignment we are achieving that lateral force that AS is meant to address is gone or at least reduced to the point that AS is no longer necessary.
I suppose I'm coming around to thinking that Harry was right all along. (Imaging that! ;-) ) AS may well have evolved to compensate for the "close enough" setups that most dealers, and most of us, would settle for. Back when we we're all first being floored by the improvements realized with the better protractor, I believe Doug posted something about how we were now experiencing playback close to what linear arm users experience. |
For me seeing the graphs shows the sweet spot of cartridge adjustment is a very small place and brings adjustment into perspective. I agree with better tools available now hole heartily. The challenge for me is to stay disiplined, take this process to a snails pace and listen for the best sound by taking very small steps. |
That guru white paper doesn't really tell me anything that we haven't been doing, figured out, or already know. There is an assumption, based on rather old technologies, in that paper that any cart/arm combo must have AS compensation. We have much better stylus profiles. We have a much better protractor. We have a much better arm. But there is one part in that paper that I most emphatically agree with. Trust your ears. |
Dan we may all have gone a bit to far after reading the GuruSetUp piece at Vacuum State. I may spend the weekend and beyond going very slowly with setup. After reading this fine explanation of cartridge setup i could be missing the sweet spot. The problem is i am getting very good sound now. With out a complete reexamination of my setup i feel i may be missing the bulls eye though. And it goes on, on to the holy grail. Man i love this stuff. |
Actually, I decided to go a bit farther. Hope I don't end up needing AS. It can still be done, but it will take a few minutes longer. ;-) |
Hello Dan very good point now that this move is giving us better sound your thought is next on my list. I have played quite a few tough tracking lps with out any noise or mistracking, know AS looks to be a winner for our ears. I think Triplaner is a winner also.
Audiogon threads and the people who contribute most certainly bring better sound to all. You and Yours and All have a very Merry Christmas day. |
Hey Stltrains and Doug,
I haven't tried any real torture tracks but so far I'm having very good results running with no AS weight at all with my heavier XV-1s. But I'm wondering why not just loosen the screw holding the end of that line on the AS rather than tying it up? |
There is a good summary post out on AudioAsylum by Rob Doorack on October 26, 2007: Jonathan Carr, the auteur behind the Lyra line, once wrote that he tried to design an arm that varied AS compensation as the arm arced across the record; he abandoned the effort when the design got too complicated to be practical. For me, it's get-it-close-and-call-it-good-enough. |
If an LP sounds distorted the primary causes are vinyl damage and misalignment. Others are excessive gain, etc.
You're right when you say "there is no getting rid of this" if the record is damaged. That is irreversible.
However, given an undamaged record, a properly aligned cartridge, and a well matched tonearm, distortion can be minimized to an imperceptible level. A zen master is not necessary; only patience and a little know how. |
Dazzdax poor recordings are poor recordings in every medium, but good set ups, set up correctly with good recordings, are what it is all about. |
Everyone is talking about minimizing distortion during playback. Fact of life: some LP's already sound distorted and there is no way of getting rid of this even if you let the Zen master of the 10th+ level do the necessary adjustments.
Chris |
Stringreen i am glad you are getting positive results with your VPI arm. Enjoying our favorite lps distortion free is the goal for us. Using 10.5 i had several lps that i know are difficult to track from years of hearing that i could not get to play with out distortion and break up. As i stated i use a Wally Universal for setup so i know i was very close if not right on. My daily job is hands on so i know tedious work. Believe me no one wants there setup correct more than me and i work very hard at it. This is one of the many things i love about our hobby so much.
Doug yes give tying up your lever a try. You know that jingle "whats the worst that can happen" In my case this little move has brought even better sound to my ears.
BTW i gave your music choice a try, was able to get a very nice copy of Haydn Music for England double lp set. You know im a classic rocker but i am truly enjoying the sound and music on these lps.
I already had my Wally on order when Mint became known here on the Gon. Wally is a very nice audiophile and i can understand him getting along with Yip. Its better for us as they may come up with better equipment for TT adjustments. |
Stefanl,
Your method seems much like Nsgarch's. As he mentioned, the higher the compliance of the cartridge, the better it works.
I would add that this method works best for arm/cartridge combinations which need a fair amount of AS. As one approaches zero AS the effects become less visible.
Both the visible deflection technique and the "start with AS at zero" technique only get you in the ballpark of course. As we all know and have said, fine tuning by ear is required no matter how you start.
Conclusion: for ballparking AS...
- if an arm/cart combo is known to prefer a fair amount of AS, the visible deflection technique may put you in the ballpark quickly
- if an arm/cart combo is known to prefer very little or no AS, starting at zero is likely to be quickest.
***
Stltrains,
I'm using a thinner fishing line than stock, so mine may resonate differently. I hadn't bothered tieing/propping the dogleg up, but after your report I'll try it. Thanks for the tip.
Interesting that your Wally Universal puts the UNIverse all the way out in the slots. So does my Mint protractor, and the greater eff. length should indeed have the benefit you described. Not only do Wally and Yip make the two most precise protractors, they even agree. This must be an analog first.
Fully agree on the tracking ability of the TriPlanar, truly superb.
|
Stltrains...I really don't know what you mean when you say that your Triplanar tracks better than a 10.5. I have no trouble in tracking at all. SSSS's are clean and clear, soloists are dead center, speakers disappear, etc. Perhaps your previous arm was not set up correctly. I used a Mint which I found to be better than the VPI template. |
>>12-22-08: Stringreen
I have found that not only is correct anti-skate an illusive quest<<
I've heard it described as elusive, nebulous, imprecise, and inexact but never illusive.
Interesting concept though. |
Stringgreen i agree with your post above. Thats why i am very happy with the lever tied up on my Triplaner. The thread slips through the hole in the lever with out any problems. I am getting increased holograph sounds with much more upper frequency delivery with absolutely no distortion or surface noise. I have my Universe mounted all the way out on the shell using my Wally Universal for setup. I am getting more effective length this way which is helping the need for AS.
Going from my old VPI 10.5 which had no active AS incorporated to Triplaner which has is kind of backwards. 10.5 could not come close to tracking like Triplaner yet Triplaner without AS is a tracking wonder not distorting in the lest bit. And as we all know the supplied weight is almost 5 grams i believe. When i was experimenting with AS i used brass washers and nuts no where near the weight of the stock TP weight. This is one of the hands on things with vinyl playback that i love. Cant get this kind of action playing digital thats for sure. |
Here is a method for setting Anti-Skate.This is of interest here I think."Anti skate is best set visually, not with the dial on the tonearm. This because of the large variation in groove friction developed by different stylus shapes and VTA settings. Watch the cantilever very carefully from the front of the headshell (use strong light) as you lower the stylus into a groove in the middle of the first band on the record. If the cantilever deflects to the right when the stylus hits the groove, increase the antiskate until the cantilever remains in the same position (relative to the front of the cartridge body) in or out of the groove. (If it deflects to the left, reduce the anti skate force.)It takes a little practice, but gets you very close to perfect with the rest easy to do by ear." |
Hevac,
If all looks to be good with your cartridge and AS mechanism.
I would go over set up again of your arm and cartridge.
Myself and other's here found the MintLp arc protractor to do the trick.
MintLp.com
Then follow Doug Deacon's lead if you like. |
I have found that not only is correct anti-skate an illusive quest, but also the mechanism that operates this anti-skate device resonates, adds unnecessary friction, etc. |
I think, this thread is essential for every analog enthusiast.
All of us want to do the things right, but it can go a frustrating route.
Antiskate is such a miracle. Lots of test records out there, but in a way they can be useless. This cartridge is a proof for trying to do it right and it went wrong. The side force can be very strong and when the cart. is new, the suspension is soft and sensitive. After some months it will deform and the story is over.
What amazed me, when I saw the cartridge is that excessive cantilever tilt...
This cartridge is on the way back to the manufacturer for a complete rebuild. |
Nsgarch, I've always thought the line contact styli have a greater contact area than the elliptical ones. Greater contact area means more friction (although the pressure/area unit is less). Dazz, sometimes Physics can be maddeningly counter-intuitive, can't it?! The amount of skating force produced is directly proportional to the friction developed between the stylus and the vinyl. Since the contact area of a conical/elliptical stylus is essentially zero, the VTF divided by zero = infinity. Therefore the skating force (in theory ;-) should also be infinity (which it isn't ;-) but the psi is still much higher than that of a line-contact stylus, which 'spreads' the VTF over a calculable area. In addition to the contact-area-vs-friction issue is this point: assuming the SRA is properly set http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1140840022&openmine&Nsgarch&4&5&st0 a line-contact stylus will 'lock' into the groove for effortless (in theory ;-) tracing. Conical and elliptical styli kind of 'skip across the high points' of the groove modulations (I'm exaggerating for illustration ;-) which adds additional friction. If you ever have a chance to watch an earlier model Shure MM cartridge (like a V-15 Type II) and see how much the cantilever deflects, even at one gram VTF, you'll understand where the AS = VTF standard came from. . |
Get rid of that Phantom piece of junk and buy yourself a Rega :-) |
I cannot get the distortion to stop coming from the left channel first no matter where I put the anti skating weight. Start by taking the AS weight off altogether. AS on top level arms and carts should be started at "zero". Adjust upward only if necessary to eliminate RIGHT channel mistracking, in TINY increments. If you get L channel mistracking first with AS adjusted to zero, something besides AS is causing it, as I noted in my second post above dated 12-19-08 (step number 5.C). |
Stiltskin
I have a phantum also and I cannot get the antiskating to set anywhere near i feel it should be. I use the Denom Omnidisc. I have used it with all my other arms and it worked great but it just does not work on the phantum. I cannot get the distortion to stop coming from the left channel first no matter where I put the anti skating weight. My others arms included SME S type and the IV also the Graham 2.2 that worked great with the denon disk. |
