Uni-Protractor Set tonearm alignment

Dear Geoch, hardly any of the japanese tonearm designs of the 1970ies or 1980ies had Baerwald IEC calculation curve in mind. People look up Baerwald IEC distortion curve readings on VE and since they deliver the lowest reading at the 3 distortion peaks, some do automatically conclude this is the best for every tonearm.
It is not - for obvious reasons.
For your SAEC 308 SX may I suggest you try Löfgren B DIN instead.
It will give you much better sonic results, as the SAEX's geometry matches far better with Löfgren B DIN or Stevenson.
Baerwald IEC is great for most modern 9" tonearms AND when playing mostly modern records cut with a long lead-out groove (i.e. the area on the record actually engraved with recorded sound is rather small ).
If you have a tonearm with an effective length anywhere between standard 9" and 12" (which applies to most today) AND/OR are playing mostly older records from the late 1950ies to mid/late 1970ies with rather small and short run-out groove (i.e. cut close to the inner label ) then Baerwald IEC will inevitably result in high distortion figures in the last minutes of each record sides.
There is no free lunch here.
We have a large variety of different pivot tonearm designs which not only differ in their design apparent to the eye, but also in their geometrical design.
If you get a reading of less than 10 mm in overhang for a 10" tonearm (SAEC 308 SX), then the geometry in question is wrong for that particular tonearm.
I do not want to go into any more length about this ( I have done so intensely in the past and really dived into this topic till I reached solid rock....), but let me suggest you try Löfgren B DIN or Stevenson DIN and come back to us with your findings.
Cheers,
D.

Hi Blammy, no customer request so far for a special Raven template. And yes, the Löfgren B is readily availalble for both DIN and IEC ...;-) ...
Thank you,
D.

Dear Geoch, I have good news and bad news reg.SAEC.
The good news is that you can download the user manual for
the WE-308 NEW from Vinyl engine. The bad news is that there is no mention of the zero points by the specifications. I wrote there 61/89 but have no idea where I got this info from.
Your quote from the VA is probable from Kessler& Pisha;
Tonearm Geometry and Setup (Audio, January 1980). They
suggest to use SAEC geometry and setup. If I am well informed ony the WE-407/23 allows 'the usual' geometry (aka
Baerwald).

Regards,

Thank you all for your kind responses.
Unfortunatelly the users manual can not help but rather making the situation much worst & perplex.

If I get it right ...
Dertonarm is the only one who suggest a different alignment than the Baerwald IEC. It seems to me that he explores some new or underestimated parameters in tonearm geometry and obviously he discovers a relationship between the alignment for the least tracking error & the alignment for better control of resonance for any given tonearm !
Every other guy in my search, -all of them- are following the usual Baerwald IEC :

John Elison about SAEC WE-308 :
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/78/788115.html

Wally Malewicz suggesting : "to use dedicated W-tractor for Rega Arms , but be prepared to twist Cartridge in the Headshell"

Allen Wright that from 1982 becomes the Australian importer claims about the WE-407/23 :
"...and am actually responsible for the /23 part of the model number. It stands for the 23 degree offset (bend) angle of the headsheel that is correct for the two point "western" arm/cartridge aligment as used today.
The original 407 used the non standard SAEC offset angle that was much less than 23 degrees, and only offered correct alignment at the inner grooves of an LP. I had them make the arm with 23 degrees offset angle to match "our" alignments and be saleable in the West"......

Allen Wright for the SAEC WE-308 :
..... "I actually don't have a 407/23 as I sold them all way back, I got a mint NIB 308 a couple of years ago and use it - with the cartridges weirdly twisted in the headshells to get the angle correct"

As you can see..........there is no doubt about the general acceptance for the Baerwald IEC standard alignment geometry.

I hope not to fall far from topic, but maybe this is a good opportunity, once the SAEC WE-308 has rundown to torture his users for the last 27 years.

Thus Im wondering if the time has come for Dertonarm to release some knowledge to the rest of us...
But are we ready to accept his "paradox" findings ?
Can we handle any truth beyond the graphic diagrams ?
So far the listening tests are giving credit to him for his new FR64S' alignment geometry & I can't think that he acted randomly without a very good reason behind this !
Is it really just the Offset Angle that determines the chosen geometry ? I doubt.

Thank you for your patience & my apologies for my ignorance.

Dear Geoch: IMHO the alignment geometry alternative we can choose for cartridge/tonearm set up is " independent " in which tonearm we will make the set-up.

Löfgreen, Baerwald, Bauer, Stevenson, Pisha, etc, etc, set up geometry equations are mathematical/abstract " items " that the only tonearm factors that take in count is that the tonearm must be a PIVOTED and its effective lenght and that's all.

If you or any other person ( like the Sansui colaboration you posted. ) thinks in different way this kind of thinking IMHO is only a misunderstood or only a false marketing " tool ".
Goech, all geometry options for set up that exist ( till today ) has its foundation on Löfgren equations that comes from 1938 ( when your SAEC/Graham does not even exist. ) and no one option outperform the Löfgren B one.

Yes, with the SAEC tonearms if we follow the manufacturer set up information with many cartridges it is a pain for the headshell wires set up and that SAEC manufacturer set up advise does not gives any real advantage.

Löfgreen B IEC is very good option and has the best/lower overall distortion. The DIN one gives you a lower inside grooves distortions but with a higher distortions outside the inner grooves: I don't like it, my take is that good tonearm with good cartridges are very good trackers and I prefer lower distortions overall against a tiny lower inside grooves distortions that I'm sure you can't detect because the difference in distoprtion level between IEC and DIN is extremely small.

Anyway, the real subject is IMHO that you can use any geometry equations option it does not matters which tonearm you own.

Nothing impede that you can test Löfgren B or Löfgren A ( that's similar to Baerwald with the same offset angle/overhang. ) or Stevenson set up and decide which set up please you.

Be carefully when doing that because for you can hear the real differences everything reside/foundation in how accurate you made each one geometry option set up. If there are differences on accuracy options set up then the differences you will hear will be because those different inaccuracies levels.

If I was you, with your SAEC or any other pivoted tonearm, my choose will be Löfgren B (IEC. ) but you can choose whatever you want, it's your call.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.