Dear Geoch, I have good news and bad news reg.SAEC.
The good news is that you can download the user manual for
the WE-308 NEW from Vinyl engine. The bad news is that there is no mention of the zero points by the specifications. I wrote there 61/89 but have no idea where I got this info from.
Your quote from the VA is probable from Kessler& Pisha;
Tonearm Geometry and Setup (Audio, January 1980). They
suggest to use SAEC geometry and setup. If I am well informed ony the WE-407/23 allows 'the usual' geometry (aka
Baerwald).
Regards, |
This may cause some perplexity in our forum but the most
people own just one TT, one tonearm and (can you believe this?) just one cart. They may be totaly ignorant about the
existence of something called 'Mint tractor' but dispite of
this (probable)fact they may need exactly this one. One is free of course to compare 'apples' with 'pears' but only in
the democratic societys. I am originaly from some communist
society so I know how dengerous comparitions are.
But I shoud think that even in such a society one will be
allowed to recommend to the 'glorious workers' and even the
'glorious party members' the use of a Mint protractor.
However in the cpitalist society were some persons are able
to extract from other people the so called 'surplus value'
it is possible to own many TT's, tonearms and even more carts. So this Dertonarm knows very well for whom his protractor is meant. But that he needs to do examination
after so many years since he got his degree is very amusing.
Regards, |
Dear Mesael, 'this is a free world, where nothing is (for)
free'. The logician hate such 'literary compositions' because of fear for the paradoxes. But 'your' free world
may also mean: you are free to buy anything you can afford.
I hope anybody can afford a good tractor but not necessarily the best one.
Regards, |
There was a thread 'Why more then one tonearm?' or something. Well we have the answer as well as some kind
of Copernican turn. We need to measure the distance from
the lead out groove till the spindle and reorganize our
LP collection accordingly. Assuming,say, 4 categorys corresponding to 4 different tonearm geometrys (otherwise
5) we will be able to use the right tonearm with the right
LP's. One need to measure first to decide how many tonearms
one will need , mark them derafter accordingly and then
apply all the acquired knowledge by each LP we intend to
play.
Regards, |
I think I understand passion.I am from the Balkans were people never try to avoid any war whatever. Thy are also
willing to participate in any as well start new one without
specific reasons. Ie pure passion. The western 'cowards' in
contradistinction need always some 'very strong reasons' for such an undertaking and have usualy no better then 'economic reasons'. I am not familiar with the Mexican hystory but from Zapata ,etc. one may quess at least some symilarity. There were times when fighting was a
way of life. If I am well informed Dertonarms direct predecessors were European champions.
Regards, |
Addendum. My point was why intervene? This way we already
missed the answer about the status of the FR-64S. Is this
arm the real King or the false one. I have the strong impression that Raul keept his strongest arguments for later. But alas. I myself hoped for some result like:'the
King is dead... long live the Triplanar'. So to me it looks
like a much better scenario to organize a duel in which both partys will use their own tonearms instead of swords so we can after the event discuss about the qualitys like:
stiffness, effective lenght, effective mass (sic!),etc.
Regards, |
Dear Dertonarm, The most 'variations' relate to the lead
out groove; the distance to the spindle hole. So no need
to worry about the outer groove. The math. is,alas, not my
best subject but it seems to me that depending on the mentioned distance 'many' O points should be possible. From Raul's arguments however I can deduce just 2 possible O points in relation to the 'inside part' of the record:
L. A or L. B. The simplicity of a theory is of course an
virtue but Einstein had some criptic comment about that:
'but not simpler'. Ie. one seldom see any distance mentioned except the most probable(average or?).
I own records with the distance of 10-4,5cm.to the 'hole'.
I got this result by inspeting just 10 records.So I claim
no 'scientific reaserch' but assume that others my own even
more 'extended' distances.
Some'light' for this 'dark part' would be very appreciated.
Regards, |
Dear Thuchan, 'reducing the complexity' means to me not being able to deal whith it. If the result of this reduction is the reduction of 'çognitive dissonance' then
this is even worse. From your statement or hope:'there is
no need for a war' I may conclude that you are a nice person and a very optimistic one as well.
Regards, |
If those 0 points mark the places whitout any distortion
why are we not able to hear them? One should akspect some
special (Aha!)feeling 'around' them. I myself would ply
only those parts on the records because my aim is perfection.
Regards, |
We all, I think, recognaze the individual right of belief
in our own hearing. So anybody is entiteld to believe in
his own ears. But to ekspect that anybody else should believe in your hearing is something totaly different. So
no wonder that only some of us use the VPI tonearms.
Regards, |
Dear Dertonarm, My argument was not against the arm but against the designer arguments (phenomenal hearing capabiltys) BTW I am not used to argue
against lifeless objects.If I understand you well you or
your tractor can fix the problem(s). But more interesting, I assume, is the article by Keith Howard in Stereophile (March,2010) about the 'arc angels'. From him I also borrowed 'my' point about the O points . According to him the 'accurate cart. alignment is very difficult to achive, not least beacause the overhang and offset have to be set within extremly tight tolerances...' He also mentioned the 'whole hystory' from Percy Wilson till Stevenson. I was suprised to learn about the diffrence between the tracking error and the tracing error but more in particular that what Dennes calls Lofgren B 'just doesent't make sence to me'. Alas the whole technical story is to complex for a lawyer.
Which brings me btw to Thuchan.
Dear Thuchan , the reduction of complexity in casu is for
me a two O points protractor with O points in the right place. No need for me to comprehend all the technicalitys.
Like a average car driver who knows that there is something
called 'motor' in his car. So 'die praktische Vernunft'(the practical reason) is something differnt from
'die reinen Vernunft' ( Kant's 'pure reason'). Anyway the fact that you are still optimistic person despite your extended experiance deserves admiration.
Regards,
Regards, |
There is much talk about the zero points but I have not
seen any mentioned in particular. Herewith two of them which I got from Howard's article in Sterophile:
'For a modulated -groove-radius range of 56-146.3 mm, they
should be at 61.6 and 118.4 mm; or for 58-146,3mm,at 63.6
and 119.6mm.'
Regards, |
Dear T_bone, I really try to be funny but it is so difficult to succeed. So herewith my comment on the linear
tonearms. Thy look to me as a very handsome guy but in the
intensive care room. All those tubes...
Regards, |
Dear Raul, I assume that I quoted from 'Das Ohr' in the thread about the FR-64 S. According to the reviewers the
geometry in the user manual was not optimal and they proposed 231.5 mm spindle-pivot distance and 146mm eff. lenght. Those are the 'FR numbers' you are refering to.BTW
Dertonarm was also reviewer by 'Das Ohr' in those time so
I thought wrongly that he must be of my age. No idea if those numbers are of any help but I used them for my FR-64
already in 1984.
Regards, |
Dear Dertonarm, I had no idea that K. Remer passed awey so
young. Was this the reason for 'passing awey' of the Magazine? I still regard DAS OHR as the best HI-FI Magazine
ever. The peculiar methodology was that each component was revieuwed by two revieuwers to further 'objectivity'. My
estimation is that you was then 20 (?) years old so this
HI-FI virus you got already as a kid. Talking about passion!
Regards, |
Dear Raul, One of the problems of an perfectionist is the
'endless list' of wishes. But before we start the second round reg. the coplexitys of our records I like to mention
in advance this peculiar capacity of (I hope only) man to 'ignore noise'. Probable caused by evolution of us 'the
hunters'. A friend of my lost his hearing capability and
need to use those hearings devices. His greatest problem is to understand his conversation partner in a gathering.
We all,I think, assume this capability for granted. But
there are among us those who collect all kinds of old records and it is very difficult to presuppose that they are not enjoying them. So my quess is that this is only possible thanks to our capability to ignore the noise. I hope that you or Lew can find in your study books 'the explanation'.
Regards, |
Dear Mesael, No ide what 'the best kept secret in analoque'
is but to my knowledge only the Sony PUA 237 has an ingenious antiskating construction which 'provide' different force depending on radius. All others have the same force everywhere as far as I know. If my quess is correct than the Sony solution should answer your question
'how should the antiskate work for a pivot arm'.
Regards, |
This Syntax is obviously a worthtless marketing manager;
he used the wrong protractor for his PR.
Regards, |
Dear Timeltel& Mesael, Those are HUGE confusions I should think. On an 'blanco' LP or an LP without grooves one can
observe the acceleration of the arm toward the spindle if no antiskate is used. Ie the centripetal force as Timeltelt stated can be seen in action . The Morisiani story is the opposite one. Ergo it is logicaly as well as physicaly impossible for both to be true. However those
forces should be the basic one for all of us to understand.
Regards, |
Dear Mesal, John stated (04-11-11) 'It would be possible to
to design a cam system given different leverages so as better to follow the average variation...' Well this was
the Sony solution as I mentioned before. One get the impression that the issue is rather avoided then solved by
adding more(confusing) variables. But looking to the actual constructions of the antiskate mechanism one can conclude that not much thought is implemented. And those are all mechanical issues that can be measured as well as covered by Newton. Or so I thought.
Regards,
Regards, |
Peterayer, You may be interested in what I deed. My Kuzma
Stabi Ref. has just one armbase but because I own Basis
Exclusive phono-pre with two separate pres I wanted an second tonearm to put next to the TT. Both the arm pod and the tonearm are made for me by the Reed (www.reed.lt).
Thy produce those armpods on order. Ie according to your ownspecifications. On their web site you can see 'my' solution (by feedback) and the arm pod by the accessory.
Regards, |
Jazzgene, 'to bad Thorens ain't what it used to be'. I agree but there are many of those 'old one' second hand still demonstrating the value of simplicity in design: good platter, good bearing and an simple motor. Despite of
this fact the Uni-Pro on them looks to me like a King on
a donkey.
Regards, |
Wrm 57, There is this German saying: 'If theory and practice coincide then they are probable both false'. However in theory there should be no difference between the
Mint Lp and the UNI-pro in your case. So, I assume, you like Dertonarm more then Yip ?
Regards, |
