Wow, I heard things on tape I never heard before


Today I attended a daylong seminar at ATR Services. The first half of the day was in a classroom environment that explained, in detail, the theory of magnetic recording, tape machines and the tape media formulations that are used.

Topics such as such as how the various brands of machines transfer information to magnetic tape, tape speed, bias frequency, tape formulations and tape drive designs all have an effect on the final result. After the theory discussions the floor was open to questions. The first one asked was " Why do you hear things on tape you don't hear on another format?"

The answer Mike Spitz gave was one I've never heard before and I'll pass it on to you for thought. If you have a mind to offer a reply, one way or the other, it will be interesting to hear YOUR thoughts.

The question was posed after a discussion on phase problems that develop when music is recorded with many microphones and passed through and processes by many digital boxes.

A drawing of the stylus in a record groove showed how the right and left channels are reproduced by left and right movement of the stylus. There is another movement of the stylus, vertical, that is the component of phase relationships. That movement doesn't have an effect on the left and right channels but is noticed on a tape recording and adds air that gives the music an effect that won't come across on an LP.

Have those of you that have the same selections on tape and vinyl noticed the sonic difference between the two. If so, what are your thoughts on the subject?

Ken
kftool
Hmm, dunno about the vertical stylus part, but all media are unique. A stylus tracking a record is limited in its response physically by inertia which affects how dynamics are produced. Inertia does not play a part in tape and digital playback, so the dynamics are different. Tape has this advantage plus an analog signal is encoded, so in a sense it does not have one of the main physical limitations of vinyl playback nor the standard format limitations of redbook CD, in particular in regards to dynamic range. Some of the best sound I have heard in a modern home stereo system has come off a RtR deck playing a modern state of the art master tape recording.
My opinion is that relative phase is preserved on both LP and tape as well as other two channel media.

A stylus works in that the orthogonal grooves on a record (left side and right side) create orthogonal vibrations of the stylus (Up Right to down left) and (Up left to down right.

Tape may have more air because of hiss and/or better channel separatiion. Hiss can help you hear things BELOW the noise floor and channel separation on an LP is lousy anyway.
"The question was posed after a discussion on phase problems that develop when music is recorded with many microphones and passed through and processes by many digital boxes.

A drawing of the stylus in a record groove showed how the right and left channels are reproduced by left and right movement of the stylus. There is another movement of the stylus, vertical, that is the component of phase relationships. That movement doesn't have an effect on the left and right channels but is noticed on a tape recording and adds air that gives the music an effect that won't come across on an LP."

Seems to me the 1st paragraph is unrelated to the 2nd.

The 1st is talking about recording musical components out of phase because of relative distances of the recording mics and time delays in various processors. The end result being the music that is put to tape or to vinyl or to CD does not have the original phase relationships of the components as produced by the musicians.

The 2nd paragraph is talking about the phase between left and right channels. This phase difference would be there regardless of the recording media. And frankly, I have no idea what the vertical movement bit is trying to say in the 2nd paragraph. Pure vertical movement of a stylus simply means that both the left and right channels are in phase, i.e., a mono signal. Any movement other than vertical means that there are out of pphase signals, i.e., stereo.
I have a few first generation copies of some studio master tapes, all 15ips, dual track, produced on Ampex machines. They do sound great but I have no reference to what the material sounds like since I don't have vinyl/cd equivalents. I also have a library of pre-recorded broadcast tapes (Drake, AFRTS) that the source was vinyl. Much of the material on these broadcast tapes I have in both vinyl and cd format. Overall, the tapes do sound 'warmer'. Soon the Miles/Blue will be available on Blu-Ray, sourced from the original three track master tapes. Should provide for some interesting listening.
I have never experienced that before, at least not when making copies of LP's to open reel. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. I would agree that even a second generation master tape is far superior to LP. I use 1/2 track machines running at 15ips (Crown sx822, Pioneer RT 1050, Revox B77). I will say (slightly off topic here) that when recording CD to open reel, the CD suddenly becomes listenable. Something wonderful happens, don't know what, but wonderful. Many of my favorite CD's that are not available in LP have been dubbed on open reel. The transformation is astounding.