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Apogee Scintilla’s: Buying advice and are they worth the hassle

Hi, I’m recently looking to acquire a pair of Apogee Scintillas (the later one ohm only version), and have recently auditioned for a pair.

First, my own newbie impressions: They are the first full range ribbon speakers I’ve ever heard, and I really like the insane transparency in the midrange and highs and the soundstage they create are scarily real, with the only downside being that the bass isn’t really solid, making it preform really well on jazz strings and female vocals but not so much on male vocals and symphonies. Overall though I would say while they seem to be specialist speakers for particular genres of music, in these genres they really shine, and I was pretty impressed.

For those who have owned Apogee full range ribbons and those who are familiar with planar speakers, do you find them easier to fail than speakers with traditional drivers? I know that the Scintillas are notorious for their 1 ohm loads, which would require a Krell or Mark Levinson from that era to power. Furthermore, the foam that holds the ribbons taut tend to rot if not taken care well. Has any of this been a problem that may indicate a high probability for a repair job given their age? Also, is the Krell KST-100 sufficient to power them?

Lastly, I’d like to inquire as to whether there is any advice for checking the speakers condition. During my audition, the seller was powering them with a McIntosh MC7270 I’ve played a slew of tracks, which the speakers seem to play without trouble. However, nearing the end of my audition I played Capricho Arabe preformed by Mats Bergstrom, and I noticed a distortion at the end of higher notes, and the track after that also displayed a similar behavior. I’ve noticed the power of the McIntosh reached maximum a few times during stronger attacks, so it might very well be distortion because the amplifier was clipping, but when the volume was turned down the distortion persists, only ceasing after I turned the volume to whispering levels. Curiously, this only happened for the last two tracks and not for the other tracks I’ve played during the audition.

Is there anyway I could differentiate whether the distortion was due to the amplifier clipping or physical defects of the ribbons, given that I nor the seller seems to have a sufficient amplifier to power them properly, and what other physical appearances could I check to make sure they are in good condition? I noticed there are crinkles on the ribbons (shown in the pictures), are these normal, or are they ribbon sag which might explain the distortion?

I apologize if this has been a very long post, but it is a significant purchase for me, and any advice would be very welcome. Thanks in advance!

 

takefive_8518
clio09
3,417 posts
 

@rooze Having owned both ribbon planar and electrostatic speakers I can say they share a very similar sound. One may not be better than the other. It depends on the model of the speaker. Acoustat speakers can be very reliable, but you need to start with a good pair that have been well taken care of. I have seen a few where the glue is deteriorating and as a result you will get some buzzing and other issues. I owned the Acoustat Model 2 which is half the height and double the width of the 1+1. The panels are also angled within the frame. I would say that with Acoustat speakers, the biggest design issue is the transformer interface. You can say this about many other ESL speakers as well, but for me this was a big issue with the Model 2. Now, when I removed the interface and added the Acoustat direct driver servo amps this was a huge improvement. They were just as enjoyable as my Quad ESL with the servo amps.

I have never owned Apogee, but always wanted to. From other owner experiences they do seem to have more issues and of course depending on the model, you may need to lock in to a certain type of amplification. If I were to get a set of Apogee I would probably just make the investment to get one of the pairs that is more amp friendly and have True Sound Works restore them. However, I have owned Analysis Audio ribbon planars and they are very similar in design to Apogee and much easier to drive. I owned two different pairs and found them to be very enjoyable. New they can be pretty pricey, but if you can locate a used pair you’ll find some great deals on them.

I don’t want to dissuade you from the 1+1, they can usually be had a great prices and they are a true line array. If you get a good pair with the right amplification or better yet find the servo amps you will find them to be very enjoyable speakers. 

nogaps
167 posts
 

 are there any speaker options that may provide a similar experience which might be more easy to drive and more likely to have support?

You may want to consider a pair of Eminent Technology LFT-8c speakers.  Compared to what you're considering, they're very easy to drive and require none of the maintenance you're discussing, though have a sound quite similar to electrostatics. 

I have a pair of LFT-8b's that I'll be upgrading to the 8c model next month. I have the upgrade kit, but I'm not at home yet.  I listened to a pair of Magneplanar 2.7i  speakers, twice, at the Florida Audio Show..my LFT-8B's , hands down, sound much better. The Maggies sounded thin to me..very accurate, but no body. That's why I went back and listened to them again with different music..my first impressions remained unchanged. 

I also listened to a fairly large pair of Poporri e-stats. They sound nice. Very different than what I'm used to. I'd need more time with them to have a real opinion. For similar money I'd leap at the Aretai speakers. Wholly different technology, but WOW..they would be an easy decision, for me.  

Below is a recent review f the LFT-8c...Greene describes the sound of the 8c's extensively. 

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/eminent-technology-lft-8c-planar-loudspeaker/

carlton8000's avatar
carlton8000
4 posts
 

As a long time multiple Scintilla owner I would suggest that every aspect has to be taken into consideration before taking on the Scintilla. IMHO placement options and adequate room size will mostly determine if the Sins will Sing. If you are able to satisfy to placement and room size aspects it is time to look at amplification. Quite simply the speakers demand reliable current delivery. Over the years I have used amplifiers from Krell, Aragon and a number of Class D variants inclusion the H20 Icepower amp from Henry Ho that was designed around his Scintilla. 

From what I can see from the photo of the speaker is that it is an earlier generation of the 1ohm only version.  The downside of this version is that it lacks the horizontal reinforcement that was adapted to later versions to adress rigidity. As far as testing a apogee bass panel/ optimally it should be done in isolation. That is playback through each bass panel individually to isolate any abnormalities ie the dreaded BUZZ.

Currently the best solution for me is to run the Scintilla in Active Bi-amp mode with 4 Class D Hypex mono blocks. Finding the right pair takes time, patience and luck. But oh the reward. 

 

patrickalston
163 posts
 

I can speak to the Acoustat 1+1s. I bought a pair over 30 years ago and still have them (although there is a loose wire in the transformer).  What I can tell you is that they're magical, BUT you must be in the sweet spot.  If you were close you could have them for free. They were replaced by the Martin Logan CLS-1 that I have owned for decades.  Few speakers have tempted me in all that time.  It doesn't get  much better for me than full-range electrostats.  The CLS-1 is also difficult to drive, but my understanding is that it's nothing like driving the Scintillas (which are also on my list of things to own before I die list).  Perhaps the CLS can work for you.  The mid-range is ethereal--still probably some of the best available.  You can find them inexpensively and replacement panels are still available from Martin-Logan.  

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