Final-Audio New Series electrostatics

@pinwa Firstly, my reference to Quad ESL's is not the first reference to the Quad Brand made within this Thread, there are other Posts referencing more than one other Brand other than Final Audio that are producing ESL Speakers.

My comments offered was prompted by another Poster making their experiences of ESL Speakers known, along with their referencing how they thoroughly enjoyed their experience of a Quad ESL Model, and one which I am very very familiar with..

My own input is about how Pricing has been discovered to be substantially different between Brands producing ESL Speakers and a Quad ESL Speaker Model.

I was not 'off topic', when the overall content within this Thread is introducing other Brands, revisiting the Quad Brand, is totally acceptable as the Thread is now about encouraged to be off topic from Final Audio Products and covers a broader range of Brands producing ESL Speakers.

My own contribution explains my experiences of One Brand where most encounters are in homes in resident systems I am very familiar with, with such regular experiences had over a long duration, my assessments have in my view, a kudos, and worthwhile making available to a wider reader base.

My ESL experiences is not limited to one Brand, but these other Brands Models  will have been encountered at an event, where when encountered are used in a unfamiliar system and surrounding. I could have added additional Brands to the Thread, but remain not be able to report in a way that I feel would have kudos. Such past encounters, now only memories, have little value as a means to offering up an assessment for a wider reader base to ponder the info offered.  

My Post does not recommend any Brand, the content is to encourage considering Retail Pricing Differences and encourages extension of Investigation to produce a increased base info for oneself.

As always, If a Forum Member is not able to appreciate the content of another Forum Members Post within a Thread, that as the outcome is fine by myself, even when it is my own offered content receiving expressed discontent.

In this case, the Thread is about Final Audio which I do not know the Retail Price. Content offered by myself, flagged up the difference in Retail Price between Quad ESL and Popori ESL's, which are both Brands that are not included in the Threads Topic, both are Alien to the OP's initial inquiry- Yes / No? I can't help but think, the follow up post as a response as a response to my Post is unusually negatively reactive.

In the case those who are Members of Onlookers and do not like content added to Threads by 'pindac', those who are finding contributions repellent. Please scroll on past the contribution offered. 'pindac' has encouraged this as a practice on many a occasion, 'pindac', is not wanting to make any forum members interaction unpalatable. 

'pindac' has seen the content of all Posts within this Thread, and has certainly not added a content to unbalance the info already made known by others.

The non participant onlooker of this Thread, if expressing an interest in ESL Speakers, who may be at the place a purchase is looking attractive, along with all the Brands referred to within this Thread, now as a result of the latest added content, has an increased info to consider, albeit, Price Comparisons Retail vs Price Comparisons for Used Items, when creating their shortlist.  

Thrilled to see the excellent engagement and participation with great insights from all participants thus far!

@pindac, in this age of AI based search capability, all it takes is a google search / web query to get details on pricing for any brand or any model if you would like to dig deeper,

HEARING IS BELIEVING!  There is no substitute to auditioning, let me know if you would like to audition any of the FINALs.

Every ESL design is different by the technology chosen and the execution details,

The Devil is always in the details,

Example:

• Panel stators versus Wire stators,
• Line source radiation versus Point source radiation pattern,
• Mylar diaphragm versus Teonex diaphragm,
• Curved panels versus Faceted segments versus Flat panels,
• Continuous radiation pattern versus segmented radiation pattern....

All of them offer different sonic flavors, just like different types of Scotch , Wine or Beer!

I agree the devil is in the details and the technology chosen varies among manufacturers. While we can talk about stators, panels, diaphragms, and radiation patterns, all of which are important, one of the key pieces of the design that seems to be getting over looked are the transformers that convert the voltage. Peter Walker's original Quad ESL used excellent transformers, not sure how Quads current transformers stack up.

I have owned Acoustat Model 2s as well and will say that removing the transformer interface and using Acoustat's servo amps to directly drive the speaker made a big difference, and I will readily admit that the input section of that amplifier was not of the best design. In fact I was in the process of modifying mine with the help of Roger Modjeski, who designed a direct replacement tube input circuit for the Acoustat servos. However, the project was never completed due to his diminishing health and subsequent death. Unfortunately I was denied the opportunity to compare FINAL M5s to my QUAD ESLs (I have 3 pair including the 57QA: https://www.quad-musik-shop.de/en/p/esl57-qa-elektrostatics).

Roger Modjeski used to work for Harold Beveridge whose Model 2 and 2SW are somewhat legendary with their unique lens that allowed for amazing dispersion and soundstage realism. Unfortunately Beveridge was not much known for their reliability. However, Roger took what he learned, did additional research, and I am happy to say that after years of trying, I have finally figured out how to set up and use his design, featuring an all tube direct drive amplifier - no transformer interface. Personally, while other technology elements of the design are important, my feeling is in many case with ESLs the transformer is the weakest link. 

I agree with clio9 that the transformers (and associated circuits/parts) have a tremendous impact on the quality of sound through electrostats. In my many pairs of Acoustats I have Spectra’s, which of the Acoustats are more like Finals (electrically segmented) which were only available using transformer based interfaces, earlier interface driven models that aren’t electrically segmented (like the Model 3), and original direct drive servo amplifier driven Acoustats (Model X and the Monitors). Amongst my sets of those direct drive servo amplifiers I have fairly stock and highly modified amplifiers. Modern amplifiers can make those Spectras sing. The middle generation interface driven models can play extremely well. The direct drive amplifiers are magic.

A fellow I bought a pair of Spectra 33’s from had never heard the servo amps, but was a big electrostatic and horn lover. He actually ran Sound Labs for some years before switching back to Acoustats. Curiousity eventually got to him enough to buy a pair of very nice, highly modified servo amps to drive some Model 6’s. He was blown away by how great they sounded.

Those servo amps got some bad early press that was really undeserved. They are fine. Stock amps aren’t bad. The direct drive part is their magic. The later builds were better than the earlier ones, but with a little work they can be greatly improved. If you want to go crazy it’s kind of amazing how far they can be taken and there are folks out there still coming up with improvements. To me, the most amazing thing that stands out for Acoustats vs other electrostats is the panel reliability. The newest Acoustat panels are maybe 30 years old. The oldest are approaching 50. And nobody is rebuilding the panels. They just keep trucking. They are certainly NOT perfect panels. It’s easy to pick out things I wish were better, but it’s hard to argue against demonstrated long term reliability.

To bring this back around to the Finals — part of what got me to order a pair are some of the details that I think are going to make these long life panels. The teonex, the low bias voltage, and the process and coating used to deposit the conductive layer. I’m hoping these turn out to be as long lasting.

The arcing report above catches my attention. I’m hoping to find out more.

As said I have not recommended a Brand and only referred to a Brand, as it was already included in Posts prior to my own.

The Thread is not restricted to one Brand of Speaker from the earliest of Posts.

I know as well as anybody with a decent amount time behind them in using Audio Equipment that differences are easily able to be found in comparisons between designs. Substantial amount of time has been spent being participant as a contributor to creating occasions for comparing Audio Devices across different systems. I may have been blessed with hearing more manifestations of synergy than many others have been blessed with.

I stand by the statement made in relation to the latest superseded Quad ESL Models " I find it difficult to see where much more is on offer from other ESL Designs ", I did not say more wasn't on offer!  

Taking up a offer of a Listen would be great, but these Speakers are not seen to have a support in the UK, so extensive travel would be needed, maybe it could be looked into for when I next drive through mainland Europe.

The Whiskey - Wine - Beer thing is not my Cup of Tea, hence, the Substances have no connection to Sound and I am not relating to this analogy in any way. 

I do get being mildly intoxicated can create a sense of euphoria and possibly make a experience seem much more than it actually is, but is this mindset a good place to be when assessing sound and gathering info to be reported on to a wide audience?