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Best bass in Earth! Bass that just smells right...

Bass ,room acoustics, attack, delay, headroom, pressurization, and integration with the main speakers. So this has been my quest. Perfect bass that enhances everything yet detracts from nothing...

Over the 25 plus years as a hobbyist (mostly Audiophile/Music lover) yet also a mechanical engineer and Virgo perfection is a must. Once I heard the swarm/distributed bass array done right I was sold. I probably have spent 10s of thousand over the years buying and selling just bass/subwoofers and every gizmo to aid in this process.

I finally find myself with 26 10 inch woofers (only using 20 at the moment)  from four Kinergetics sw 800's in a small 20 x 16 room. 4 towers with 5 10 inch Seas each and 2 of the smaller subs with 3 10 inch woofers each. They are all in great condition given age the drivers are tight and work perfectly. Of all the money I have spent in home audio this has been my most difficult challenge to achieve perfection. I love Stats and Maggies but also like AC/DC and other music that the plannars are not the best at. Dyna Audio and Dunlavy speakers are the fastest coned sealed speakers (I am sure there are a million speakers out there that equal or better them not here to debate speakers) . I personally have always preferred the sound of FAST sealed cone speakers.

Back to the bottom foundation which I feel all speakers need regardless of price and woofer size. Trying to get four Sub woofers correct in a room is not easy. I probably have 200 hours into these SW 800's and now trying different AMPs and configurations. Im close but not there Id give it 88-91 percent but that last 10 percent is the magic.

So for they peeps out there getting into this can of worms. First unless your a sadomasochist like me it's probably best to buy a system like the Audio Kinesis or Debra system. It's just guaranteed results. Second this is for music not HT there is a difference. Although I had the HSU ULS 15's sealed 2 of em and they are darn good, Revel b 15' A's, Muse Model 18's along with several others. These SW 800's are more like actual speakers that require a lot of work to get right. They also use a funky forward distortion feedback Compusound circuitry (Im not an EE but from what little I was able to read it sounds like a forward servo design in their BSC cross overs) tons of pros and cons to the design but the fact they were meant to mate with the original Martin Logan full panel CLS says volumes when it comes to transparency. Although I dont use the high pass just the low pass.

So if you are into real music and enjoy room pressurization with out destroying (actually increasing, presence, timing, and smell of the music) multiple subwoofers are a mandatory.

I am writing this post for all the peeps getting into real bass so you dont make all the mistakes I have made. We all know how expensive mistakes are that is and why we are members of Agon and other groups. I do want to Thank a couple of members on here for their help and wisdom. I wont name them they know who they are. And special Thank you and Happy New Year to the moderators and founders of Agon for giving all of us a place to gain view points, experiences, and wisdom!

-Allgood
haywood310
audiokinesis
2,800 posts
 
@brotw posted: "Do 4+ instead of dual subs shine best in monitor/stat/maggie systems with subs crossed at ~80 HZ?"

I think that’s a fair statement. But I have customers crossing over their Swarms at the minimum 30 Hz setting and finding them to be a worthwhile improvement over one or two subs.

@brotw again: "Decoupling bass frequency from mains allows for smoother room response using multiple subs, but I wonder how anchored in the soundstage 40-80Hz notes from stand up bass would sound."

I use a 4th order lowpass filter so that any subs far away from the mains don’t pass upper bass/lower midrange energy loud enough to give away their locations. To the best of my knowledge this has worked well for crossover frequencies up to 80 Hz. I don’t think there would be any problem with upright bass, especially since the ear will tend to localize the notes based on the overtones rather than the fundamentals.

@phusis posted: " Assuming there is stereo information below 80 Hz, rare it may be, and that one, if placement allowed, would like to take advantage of stereo information here, how would you approach connecting a diagonally positioned pair of subs (just 2, not 4) - like, one sub in the front left corner, and one in the rear right corner? "

I’d send the left channel signal to the left front corner sub, and the right channel signal to the right rear corner sub.

The mono-vs-stereo subwoofers issue is most likely to come up for a system like my Swarm, where all four subs are passive and can be driven by a single amplifier for mono bass, or by two amplifiers (at additional cost) for stereo bass. If you have two (or more) powered subs, imo you might as well connect them in stereo if that’s feasible. 

My understanding that stereo bass is rare is largely based on a conversation with Earl Geddes wherein he described working as a consultant for Ford and the question arose of whether or not to provide stereo low bass for a high-end sound system. So he asked all of the engineers to bring in their CD’s. I don’t recall how many he analyzed, but he did not find a single one with stereo information below either 80 Hz or 100 Hz (my memory is foggy on the exact figure). I think there are audiophile recordings with true stereo bass, seems to me I read about some many years ago, but I didn’t make note of what they were. If anyone reading this knows of any recordings with true stereo south of 80 Hz, I’d be very interested in knowing about them.

Duke
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
When Duke says "My understanding is that true stereo below 80 Hz is actually quite rare" what he means is unicorn rare. Something people talk about but never quite manage to find. There is no stereo bass information down low. Even if there were we’d never hear it.

Mine are actually hooked up L/R now. Actually three on the left get the left channel, the right channel goes to the two on the right. But I tried it lots of ways, including all mono, and the one thing you will never hear is any difference between stereo and mono. Between 4 ohm and 16 ohm, for sure. Different positions, yes but not to the same extent. Phase? Even less so.

Stereo bass is definitely a thing. I could play you one recording after another, and guarantee you will be freaking amazed at how much character, definition, and 3D localization there is to the bass. It does whatever it needs to do, from pin-point where the drum was hit to all enveloping cocoon of man cave magic. Whatever it takes, its there. But all that sense of where it is, is just as good whether subs are wired stereo, or mono.
geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
I don’t like to brag but you people would not believe the bass that’s right there on the CD. But you just can’t hear it, that’s all. It’s like trying to excavate for the jewels of some Egyptian King. But, alas, the CD machines have never been able to excavate the CDs properly. Not even close. But in the DC area there is one place you can go to hear it. No, not my place.
brotw
103 posts
 
Duke, I'll go along with the overtones providing soundstage placement through the mains. As far as sub placement, stereo subs could be positioned on the L/R walls rather than the opposite corners as you alluded to in your earlier post, but thankfully spatial cues are largely provided by the mains. Anywhere you want it, that's the way you need it (as long as REW says so)

Seriously, I'd have to play with crossover frequencies for best integration. The other issue is high level or low level inputs for those of us without bass management. I see reasoning for both.

Still need to get subs, just wonder how many.

erik_squires
17,584 posts
 
I think there are audiophile recordings with true stereo bass, seems to me I read about some many years ago, but I didn’t make note of what they were. If anyone reading this knows of any recordings with true stereo south of 80 Hz, I’d be very interested in knowing about them.


I think the question really is going to be, how does this get recorded and mixed? I don't think recording engineers are low passing all tracks and replacing them as a mono element, unlike perhaps movie sound tracks, where the LFE channel can be used for greater dynamic range.

More likely the percussion all ends mixed together and put in one place.

I mean consider a case of a double bass off to the right, and a piano to the left. I've never heard of any recording engineer taking the bass alone and mixing it to mono.  Would be very interesting to hear from actual recording engineers.

Having said this, properly integrated, where a sub is physically located should not be discernible.
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