What is wrong with audiophiles?


Something that has happened countless times happened again last night. Ordinary people over for a party listening to some music easily hear things audiophiles argue endlessly don't even exist. Oh, its worse even than that- they not only easily hear but are stunned and amazed at what they hear. Its absolutely clearly obvious this is not anything they ever were expecting, not anything they can explain- and also is not anything they can deny. Because its so freaking obvious! Happens every time. Then I come on here and read one after another not only saying its impossible, but actually ridiculing people for the audacity of reporting on the existence of reality.

What is wrong with audiophiles?

Okay, concrete examples. Easy demos done last night. Cable Elevators, little ceramic insulators, raise cables off the floor. There's four holding each speaker cable up off the floor. Removed them one by one while playing music. Then replaced them. Music playing the whole time. First one came out, instant the cable goes on the floor the guy in the sweet spot says, "OH! WTF!?!?!"

Yeah. Just one. One by one, sound stage just collapses. Put em back, image depth returns.

Another one? Okay.

Element CTS cables have Active Shielding, another easy demo. Unplug, plug back in. Only takes a few seconds. Tuning bullets. Same thing. These are all very easy to demo while the music is playing without interruption. This kills like I don' know how many birds with one stone. Auditory memory? Zero. Change happens real time. Double blind? What could be more double blind than you don't know? Because nobody, not me, not the listener, not one single person in the room, knows exactly when to expect to hear a change- or what change to expect, or even if there would be any change to hear at all. Heck, even I have never sat there while someone did this so even I did not know it was possible to hear just one, or that the change would happen not when the Cable Elevator was removed but when the cable went down on the floor.

We're talking real experience here people. No armchair theorizing. What real people really hear in real time playing real music in a real room.

I could go on. People who get the point will get the point. People who ridicule- ALWAYS without ever bothering to try and hear for themselves!- will continue to hate and argue.

What is wrong with audiophiles?

Something almost all audiophiles insist on, its like Dogma 101, you absolutely always must play the same "revealing" track over and over again. Well, I never do this. Used to. Realized pretty quickly though just how boring it is. Ask yourself, which is easier to concentrate on- something new and interesting? Or something repetitive and boring? You know the answer. Its silly even to argue. Every single person in my experience hears just fine without boring them to tears playing the same thing over and over again. Only audiophiles subject themselves to such counterproductive tedium.

What is wrong with audiophiles????
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What's your agenda thyname?  You actually troll people on one forum, so you can post about and complain about them on another forum. It would seem the only person with an "agenda" here is you.

I don't have an agenda, but I do feel that those on the fence deserve an honest look at many of the questionable claims made, so that they Can make informed decisions about what they purchase.

Do you go on rants about Consumer Reports too?  How about every audio magazine ... every time they posts a review they are influencing people about how to spend their money.

Like I said, you can make any claim you want. No one is stopping you. If anything, you are the one trying to shut down others with statements about others you cannot even backup.
OK --- I'll bite. You are here to teach, right? I don't see any willingness to learn since you joined a few days ago. it's an audio forum, right? About audio and music as a hobby

What's your personal recommended speaker? Amp? DAC? Preamp? And how did you pick them? 

Better yet, why don't you post your system (list and pictures) under Audiogon Systems so that we can see and learn from you.
LOL!!! it looks like nobody can make a claim (read: share his/her own experience) about any audio component, unless he/she can:

1 - Show detailed measurements on said components. Including proof / validation of the instruments used in the measurements,

and

2 - Show proof of scientifically controlled, ABX test, with a large enough pool of people to have any statistical meaning

If not, every claim is null and void! LOL!!!!



Thyname:


Here is my take, to show why I don't agree with that statement.


No one has to make themselves in to a scientist in order to enjoy or discuss high end audio.  That doesn't suit many people's interest or goals here, and even among those who are more skeptical than others, it's impractical.


So it's up to any individual if he wants to avail himself of any engineering or scientific knowledge concerning the performance of equipment, psychoacoustics and the like.  And to what degree he/she wants it to inform their own views.


I think the exchange of subjective experiences with equipment is wonderful.  I love it.  Whatever the mechanics involved, the fact is a sound system "sounds like something" and I like exchanging notes on "how things sound."


However, as I am aware of the numerous ways in which our perception can be fallible, and how our inferences from our subjective experience can be unreliable, I will sometimes look to what is plausible based both upon engineering and scientific grounds, in terms of if a claimed phenomenon is plausible, or whether it's audibility is plausible. 
And I use that to put my confidence in a reasonable place about a specific claim.


So....when it comes to, say, loudspeakers, it's well known and well demonstrated in terms of engineering and psychoacoustics that different loudspeaker designs tend to sound different.   So if someone is claiming "I heard speaker A and B and preferred speaker B for these characteristics" that's an entirely plausible claim.   It COULD be that the person is in error somehow, and bias influenced his perception.  If I think I hear a difference between speaker A and B it's possible I could be mislead by some sighted bias.  It's simply being intellectually honest to admit that, and to admit that if I really wanted to warrant deeper confidence in my claim, double-blind testing is a tool to get that deeper level confidence.


But as a practical matter, since the claim of sonic differences are plausible, and such sonic speaker differences are expected, and we don't all have double-blind labs to test our speaker perceptions, it's reasonable to proceed making claims and exchanging notes based on our anecdotal, sighted experience. IMO.  For similar reasons we exchange notes on our experiences for countless things everyday (and it would not be practical to try to scientifically test everything we do!).


This situation changes the more the claims move in to more contested territory - contested by people who have relevant technical and/or psychoacoustics knowledge.   Not all claims are equally plausible.


This moves in to the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" territory.   If you tell me you just bought a new 4K TV from Best Buy, since this is a completely plausible and uncontroversial claim, it's reasonable for me to accept the claim.  But if you tell me you just bought a full grown, living Tyrannosaurus Rex...well...your say so isn't good enough.  Given what is known about dinosaurs, the claim isn't plausible.  And people lie.  So any rational person would want to be more rigorous in the demands for evidence.


I employ that same rule of thumb for proportioning my confidence in both my own experience, and in the claims made by other people, in this case other audiophiles.  If an audiophile is claiming that fuse A has different sonic characteristics than fuse B, or AC cable has a "smoother sound with tighter bass" then I'm looking for a plausible explanation for how that is the case, and will consider the method by which those claims were arrived at.  If the technical claims seem implausible, if the general claims are "fishy" sounding (as they are from most high-end companies selling AC cables), and if the only method of vetting the claims have been "I'm sure I heard a difference" then I'll wait for better evidence.It's just intellectually honest to admit that the variables involved are problematic for establishing the claims GIVEN a lack of reliable, objectively verifiable basis for the claims.


That DOES NOT MEAN that anyone needs to stop making claims about their experience about ANYTHING.  If you put a new AC cable in to your system and perceive some particular sonic character change, by all means, spread the word!  This is *some* evidence towards the phenomenon.  And people having repeatedly similar experiences also constitutes *some evidence* towards the claim.  But to the degree anyone wishes for a more warranted level of confidence, he would have to admit that, depending on the claim, it's not terribly reliable evidence, where more controlled methods could yield results warranting greater confidence.


So long as you are open to a nuanced position, I hope that this clears up at least one person's position here.



prof-
Yes I'm well aware of the rich history and layers of meaning behind the word audiophile. Problem is audiophiles are not all cut from the same cloth as J Gordon Holt. In fact it seems hardly any of them are. (And I bet a lot here don't even recognize the name of the Stereophile founder.)

There are no straw man arguments here. None. The soundstage example, to pick just one at random, there was a whole long thread here not so long ago on the topic with a whole bunch of people, presumably audiophiles, who let's just say hold views clearly at odds with you and me. 

In fact, I will show you just how NOT straw man my arguments are. Look no further than this very page. Scroll up and you will find:
And I would say “what’s wrong with subjective audiophiles” Who the heck else would spend multi thousands of dollars for something that has no measurable difference?  Or that they cannot repeatedly identify without visibly knowing it’s there?

This one arrogant post does exactly what I've been saying: ridicules subjectivity (what people actually hear!) in favor of measurements, AND throws in double-blind testing, all in one beautifully condemning post. The poster should read Holt, and feel the shame.

I'd look for more but to read cleeds, glupson, geoffkait, well they're just not paying me enough to endure that level of suffering. Being as all these are audiophiles only makes me want to scream from the roof tops- What is wrong with audiophiles!?!?!?!
Anyone care to guess how long it will be before these kinds of arguments pollute all the categories here?