First order/Time Phase-Coherent speakers discussions


"The game is done! I’ve won! I’ve won!"


I would like to use this thread to talk about this subject which I find rather fascinating and somewhat difficult to get my hands on. I went through a course in electromagnetism in college and I have to say this is even more confusing and you won’t find the answer in calculus, physics, Einstein relativity be damned it’s not in there either and definitely not in quantum physics. Listening to the "experts" from Vandersteens and Stereophile but ultimately it all came down to a missing link sort of argument ... something like this:
"Since if a speaker can produce a step response correctly, therefore it is time-phase coherent, and therefore it must be "good".

It’s like saying humans come from chimps since they share 90% genetic content with us, but we can’t find any missing links or evidence. FYI, we share a lot of gene with the corn plants as well. Another argument I’ve heard from John Atkinson that lacks any supporting evidence and he said that if everything else being equal, time-phase coherence tends to produce a more coherent and superior soundstage, but to the best of my knowledge, nobody has been able to produce some semblance of evidence since there is no way to compare apples to apples. Speaker "A" may have better soundstage simply because it’s a BETTER design, and the claim "time-phase coherent" is just a red herring. There’s no way one can say the "goodness" from "time-phase coherence" because you can’t compare apples to apples. Ultimately it’s a subjective quantification.

I’ve been doing some simulation and I will post some of my findings with graphs, plots, actual simulation runs so that we are discussing on subjective personal opinions. Some of my findings actually shows that intentionally making time-phase may result in inferior phase problem and NOT better! (will be discussed more in detail).

Having said all that, I am actually in favor of first order/time-phase coherent if POSSIBLE. I am not in favor of time-phase coherence just for the sake of it. It’s just that there are a lot of mis-information out there that hopefully this will clear those out. Well hopefully ...

Here my preliminary outline:

1. My "subjective" impression of what is "musicality" and how it’s related to first order filters.
2. Interpretation of step-response. I’ve read a lot of online writing with regard to the interpretations but I think a lot of them are wrong. A proper interpretation is presented with graphs and simulations.
3. A simulation of an 1st order and higher order filters with ideal drivers and why time-phase coherence is only possible with 1st order filter. This part will use ideal drivers. The next part will use real world drivers.
4. A simulation with actual drivers and how to design a 1st order/time phase coherent speaker. Discuss pros and cons. And why time-phase coherence may actually have phase issues.
5. Discuss real world examples of time-phase coherence with Thiel’s and Vandersteens speakers (and why I suspect they may not ultimately be time-phase coherent in the strictest sense).
6. I’ll think of something real to say here ... :-)
andy2
a careful study of the ten or so first principles that go into Vandersteen speaker design will illuminate why time and phase are just the start. You could explore the just expired patent on the aerodynamic low reflection driver for starters, or perhaps the shared Low/ Vandersteen patent on DBS, which is applied to the internal filters  for the 5a or the pistonic CF/balsa core midrange which is a trade secret, or cabinet within a cabinet, or the co-cured Cf stealth cabinet, etc....the list is long, since 1977
@andy2 looks so far like you’ve come to this thread demanding some answers (you keep flailing away at the one practical-based q[what does it sound like?]). It’s one thing to want answers, everybody in this forum does, but it’s another to just plop down in a thread and bitc# and moan and blame everyone else for the fact that You don’t understand something, like we’re supposed to think you’re ’spatial’...you seem to think that Your ignorance is somehow Our fault.

You probly would’ve had more support if you had accepted responsibility for that from the start, but you evidently decided in advance that all of us are b@stards from the start for not telling you what it is you want to know.

I think at this point someone could give you the answer you’ve been looking for all along and you’d have too big of a chip on your shoulder and be too stupid to recognize it. Personally I have no interest in whether or not you ever do recognize it...and I don’t think anyone else here should either.

Yeah it’s Friday. And tomorrow’s Saturday and the next day is Sunday...I for one, don’t especially care how long it will take you, or how old you will turn out to be, before someone ’Finally’ leads you by the hand and delivers you (and the rest of us) from your own stupidity.

Have a nice weekend.
Yeah it’s Friday. And tomorrow’s Saturday and the next day is Sunday...I for one, don’t especially care how long it will take you, or how old you will turn out to be, before someone ’Finally’ leads you by the hand and delivers you (and the rest of us) from your own stupidity.

You can’t be so desperate, can you? Are you saying "stupidity" is what you’re waiting to save you? If that’s the case, can you jump off a building somewhere lols? If "stupidity" is what you’re waiting for, well just go and say "Hi" to whoever closest to you.  That should give you a quick "stupidity" fix.  

I got more poetry for you. More "stupidity" for you every week. Chew on that brother.
@ivan_nosnibor ...there's a lot of it going around of late. :(

@andy2 ....here, from 20:30 on...try to get the picture.  I'm not drunk....just...

Oh, 'ell....it's Friday. Try to have a nice weekend, huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQeOm3CuUFY