First order/Time Phase-Coherent speakers discussions


"The game is done! I’ve won! I’ve won!"


I would like to use this thread to talk about this subject which I find rather fascinating and somewhat difficult to get my hands on. I went through a course in electromagnetism in college and I have to say this is even more confusing and you won’t find the answer in calculus, physics, Einstein relativity be damned it’s not in there either and definitely not in quantum physics. Listening to the "experts" from Vandersteens and Stereophile but ultimately it all came down to a missing link sort of argument ... something like this:
"Since if a speaker can produce a step response correctly, therefore it is time-phase coherent, and therefore it must be "good".

It’s like saying humans come from chimps since they share 90% genetic content with us, but we can’t find any missing links or evidence. FYI, we share a lot of gene with the corn plants as well. Another argument I’ve heard from John Atkinson that lacks any supporting evidence and he said that if everything else being equal, time-phase coherence tends to produce a more coherent and superior soundstage, but to the best of my knowledge, nobody has been able to produce some semblance of evidence since there is no way to compare apples to apples. Speaker "A" may have better soundstage simply because it’s a BETTER design, and the claim "time-phase coherent" is just a red herring. There’s no way one can say the "goodness" from "time-phase coherence" because you can’t compare apples to apples. Ultimately it’s a subjective quantification.

I’ve been doing some simulation and I will post some of my findings with graphs, plots, actual simulation runs so that we are discussing on subjective personal opinions. Some of my findings actually shows that intentionally making time-phase may result in inferior phase problem and NOT better! (will be discussed more in detail).

Having said all that, I am actually in favor of first order/time-phase coherent if POSSIBLE. I am not in favor of time-phase coherence just for the sake of it. It’s just that there are a lot of mis-information out there that hopefully this will clear those out. Well hopefully ...

Here my preliminary outline:

1. My "subjective" impression of what is "musicality" and how it’s related to first order filters.
2. Interpretation of step-response. I’ve read a lot of online writing with regard to the interpretations but I think a lot of them are wrong. A proper interpretation is presented with graphs and simulations.
3. A simulation of an 1st order and higher order filters with ideal drivers and why time-phase coherence is only possible with 1st order filter. This part will use ideal drivers. The next part will use real world drivers.
4. A simulation with actual drivers and how to design a 1st order/time phase coherent speaker. Discuss pros and cons. And why time-phase coherence may actually have phase issues.
5. Discuss real world examples of time-phase coherence with Thiel’s and Vandersteens speakers (and why I suspect they may not ultimately be time-phase coherent in the strictest sense).
6. I’ll think of something real to say here ... :-)
andy2
simonmoon: 

      Actually, we and other apes evolved from several ape-like critters, not only one.
     As far as phase coherence, having grown up with B&W from the beginning, I saw that their original test equipment demonstrated that what was measured by lasers reflecting from the drivers, when compared to the electrical signal,  became more coherent when the drivers were time aligned.  I measured my sub driver and aligned the center of voice coil magnets with my B&W 803 magnets.
     It does work, but phase alignment alone does not make a speaker out of a cow's ear.  Also, if you are getting a lot of wall reflection, your question is moot. 
     Thiel slanted their cabinet face for time coherence. Tilted Sound Anchor stands do the same thing.  It makes the sound from the drivers reach your ears in closer time phase.
     Think about this: The electrical signal reaches the deep-in-cabinet woofer magnet at the same time as the mid-sized mid-range and shallow tweeter. By aligning the magnet centers, the sound from the tweeters does not reach your ears before the mids, which is ahead of the woofers.
      Amazingly, some people use tilted stands with internally phase aligned positioning of the drivers, making the alignment bass ackwerd.
     Panel speakers do not suffer from alignment issues, for obvious reasons. 
a careful study of the ten or so first principles that go into Vandersteen speaker design will illuminate why time and phase are just the start. You could explore the just expired patent on the aerodynamic low reflection driver for starters, or perhaps the shared Low/ Vandersteen patent on DBS, which is applied to the internal filters  for the 5a or the pistonic CF/balsa core midrange which is a trade secret, or cabinet within a cabinet, or the co-cured Cf stealth cabinet, etc....the list is long, since 1977