Stylus-Drag..Fact or Fiction?

@mijostyn

...it appears David Karmeli does not have a web site. I can find pictures of his tables but nothing on specs and design philosophy. It sure looks like he has out Kuzma’d Frank. That table looks darn massive. I understand it has an air bearing like the Walker? Nothing on price or how to order one. I have never been a fan of direct drive turntables. It seems to be the solution to a problem I do not have. None of my turntables have had speed variations bad enough that I could hear and that includes the LP 12.

Cost for the AS2000 is into 6-figures with a limited production run.

Gauging a table by audible wow & flutter and believing that not hearing speed variation means there are no problems is to miss out on what the best direct drives (or other high stable accuracy tables) have to offer.

Our ears are far more sensitive to time differences than we realize. Consider two transients, n seconds apart - what would n need to be for a listener to hear them merged as one, a single note? 20/1000th of a second? A string section having multiple performers are not, in virtue of their humanity, in perfect sync. That’s why one hears a harmonic shimmer when they play quickly together. Differentiation in arrival time correlates with perception of distance - exactly what we do in soundstage perception/creation - the timpani are behind the trombones. It’s an ancient skill. Dynamic transients have more initial impact with a more speed accurate table - less blur at the launch edge.

Stable accuracy brings significant sonic improvement to any aspect of music through vinyl playback that involves time or frequency. I urge you to hear for yourself if it makes a difference - listen to a better direct-drive side by side with the belt or idler of your choice.

ignore the technology and measurements.

i did......or i do every day.

i purchased the Saskia idler to place next to my Wave Kinetics NVS direct drive. both toward to top of the heap for their types. i think my system allows each to flourish. maybe not every system is as flexible.

switching arms and cartridges back and forth it's obvious they are different in a good way, neither is wrong.

the NVS bigger and more organized in the sound stage. the stage edges get expanded. no limit to dynamics. very neutral tonally.

the Saskia has amazing energy, images more holographic and astonishing tonal density. more weight and impact to the bass and it digs deeper in flow and timbre.

both tt's are very good in the areas where the other is outstanding.....and different types of music are better served by each.

love them both.

Pursuant to mijostyn's concern about an "oscillating magnetic device" under his LOMC, I do believe in fact that in some designs one can hear an issue, faintly.  I have guessed that EMI from the motor may be in fact what some claim to be caused by "cogging".  Coreless motors are much less prone to generate this interference, based on my listening to several different brands and models in my own home system, but still, I am guessing.  If you read the L07D website, you will see that some have recommended adding some shielding under the platter to ameliorate a faint glaze with the L07D.  It's not actually a problem you can hear; it's more like a problem you did not know you had, until you eliminate it.  That was my experience when I added an extra bit of shielding between the motor and the underside of the platter on my L07D, per recommendations on the website.  Paradoxically, the L07D uses a coreless motor. It also comes with a thick stainless steel platter sheet, which I am guessing was meant to function as a shield.  The Technics SP10 Mk3, on the other hand, while it does have a massive iron core motor compared to others, has no issue I can hear.  Possibly because it already has a massive and thick platter assembly that does a good job also as a shield.  My old Mk2 definitely did have a kind of gray-ish coloration (two samples over 5 years or so in my home system) which could have been due either to EMI from the motor or from....  So, for any particular model of DD, there is either no problem or there is a simple and inexpensive solution to it. The trade-off in speed constancy is to my ears well worth it.
While we're at it, the Lenco idler design places a big motor under the platter as well. I guess the Garrard does to.  In any case, I hear no such issue with my much modified Lenco.  I would characterize its "sound" in much the same way as Mike L characterized the Saskia, albeit the Saskia is a Lenco on steroids and surely does everything better.

Dear @jtimothya  :  """  Dynamic transients have more initial impact with a more speed accurate table - less blur at the launch edge. ""

Yes, that's one of the reasons about, other is that any kind of vibrations generated by the analog rig are better damped/controled.Transient accuracy and speed is where the sound of music strats followed by the developed harmonics. It's the " engine " of music reproduction in home.

@mikelavigne  said: """  the Saskia has amazing energy, images more holographic and astonishing tonal density. more weight and impact to the bass... """

that comes from that transient accuracy/speed and very good controled vibrations throug the analog rig.

In the other side I don't think that differences in betweeen the Saskia and NVS TTs been really high but only differences on some important characterisrtics of the performance that goes more with Mike priorities but this is only my " imagination " because ML is a true expert audiophile and music lover and he knows.

R.

Thanx for the description lewm. I would really like to hear the Monaco table. I could do it if I sold one of my tables.
jtimothya, yes we are very sensitive to timing but not in that way. We are sensitive to the time and volume differential between our ears. We are much more insensitive to pitch and tempo. Many musicians use various devices to tune their instruments and metronomes to set tempo. 
Flutter is more audible than Wow. It is generally accepted that most of us can not here tempo and pitch variations less than 0.25%. Modern high performance turntables when new have wow and flutter levels less than 0.05% well inaudible by any of us. Relating values below this to some alteration in sound quality is difficult if not impossible. Then end result is that any body can say whatever they want. Which unfortunately means whatever anybody says is worthless without some form of scientific proof.